SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
Not sure how this addresses my point.
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Why Would Noah's Flood Have Been the Best Way for God to Cleanse the Earth?
- Thread starter David Davidovich
- Start date
David Davidovich
Well-Known Member
David Davidovich said: ↑
I prefer to say religious denomination because there is an excessive amount of Bible interpretation for all the various Christian denominations, where one person could pull out a scripture and give their interpretation of it, and then another person could pull out the same scripture and give an entirely different interpretation.
So, are you saying that you are not affiliated with any denomination and that you read and interpret the Bible on your own? And that you are able to have the correct interpretation of the Bible on your own?
I prefer to say religious denomination because there is an excessive amount of Bible interpretation for all the various Christian denominations, where one person could pull out a scripture and give their interpretation of it, and then another person could pull out the same scripture and give an entirely different interpretation.
So, are you saying that you are not affiliated with any denomination and that you read and interpret the Bible on your own? And that you are able to have the correct interpretation of the Bible on your own?
Last edited by a moderator:
David Davidovich
Well-Known Member
David Davidovich said: ↑
I had to come back to this post too in order to give you another reply to your questions. But to answer your questions, I need to ask you some questions:
Why do people who don't have your religious viewpoint get up and go to the work in the morning?
Same thing as to why do these people care about raising children and/or sending them to school to learn?
Additionally, why do these same people go to the doctor or the dentist?
Plus, why do people like these have friends and socialize and have getogathers and have fun and enjoy other aspects of life? Because I'm sorry, but the questions that you asked and your point of view sound irrational when one takes a close look at them.
No, the point wasn't about science paints a bleak future picture. My post was a reply to a post that YoursTrue made. But go back and look at her post.
I had to come back to this post too in order to give you another reply to your questions. But to answer your questions, I need to ask you some questions:
Why do people who don't have your religious viewpoint get up and go to the work in the morning?
Same thing as to why do these people care about raising children and/or sending them to school to learn?
Additionally, why do these same people go to the doctor or the dentist?
Plus, why do people like these have friends and socialize and have getogathers and have fun and enjoy other aspects of life? Because I'm sorry, but the questions that you asked and your point of view sound irrational when one takes a close look at them.
No, the point wasn't about science paints a bleak future picture. My post was a reply to a post that YoursTrue made. But go back and look at her post.
David Davidovich
Well-Known Member
David Davidovich said: ↑
David Davidovich said: ↑
Also, I wanted to mention that one of the problems with the book of Job is that believers are willing to go through anything that their religious denomination tells them to go through, regardless of the danger that it poses to them mentally, physically, or emotionally, or to their children or family.
Well, I can only guess that you haven't gone through a lot (yet?) with your denomination.
Well, it sounds like you are not familiar with the Jehovah's Witness / Malawi scandal in the 1960s.
David Davidovich said: ↑
Also, I wanted to mention that one of the problems with the book of Job is that believers are willing to go through anything that their religious denomination tells them to go through, regardless of the danger that it poses to them mentally, physically, or emotionally, or to their children or family.
Well, I can only guess that you haven't gone through a lot (yet?) with your denomination.
Well, it sounds like you are not familiar with the Jehovah's Witness / Malawi scandal in the 1960s.
Fallen Prophet
Well-Known Member
I see no Biblical justification for anything you have said.
In fact - I believe that the Genesis account clearly contradicts what you have said.
It was not until after Adam and Eve partook of the Fruit and received Knowledge of Good and Evil that God said,
"Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken." (Genesis 3:22-23)
They not only received that Knowledge from partaking of the Fruit - but they had become more like God for doing so.
It makes no sense to claim that death was "evil" when Adam and Eve had no concept of "evil".
I'm sorry - but nothing you say makes sense and it is not supported by the Biblical record.
Christians are to be affiliated and meet together - Hebrews 10:24-26.
Jesus said his ' sheep' would hear his voice.
To me the ' voice of reason ' is the logical reasoning Jesus used and taught by his often referring back to the OT.
Jesus explained and expounded Scripture for us.
The Bible is chock full of corresponding cross-reference verses and passages by subject or topic arrangement.
A comprehensive concordance puts the Bible in ABC order for us by subject, by topic.
In Jesus' day the false clergy used religious customs or traditions over Scripture - Matthew 15:9
This is still true today, and to me the clear ' ring of truth ' comes through Jesus' words and Not the false teachings of 'Christendom' ( so-called Christian but mostly in name only - the MANY of Matthew 7:21-23 )
- www.jw.orgDavid Davidovich said: ↑ Also, I wanted to mention that one of the problems with the book of Job is that believers are willing to go through anything that their religious denomination tells them to go through, regardless of the danger that it poses to them mentally, physically, or emotionally, or to their children or family.
Yes, according to Genesis 2:17 Adam did have the concept of what was evil because Adam was told in advance if he broke the law he would ' die ', so the evil was or the bad was: death. ( eat the forbidden fruit and you will die )
Adam could 'step on a bug' and easily see what death was.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Let's say that the Jesus story was true. That does not mean that his use of Noah was evidence for Noah. He was merely getting his message across in a way that his audience could understand. If God cannot lie there was no flood. You are claiming that God is a liar. It is not a lie to use literary phrases and tools like "she was as old as the hills". Does that mean that the women being referred to was as old as the hills? Or does it just mean that she was very old?
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Sorry, but that does not mean that he new what evil was. He was merely given an instruction that he did not understand according to the myth. Read it again a bit more carefully. You will see that both of them knew that they did something wrong after they at the "apple" not before.
David Davidovich
Well-Known Member
URAVIP2ME said: ↑
God shared His knowledge of Good and Evil at Genesis 2:17
The 'Evil' was: death.
Very simple to understand. You break the Law and you will die.
The 'Good' was you keep the Law and you will never die. You will live forever in perfect health on Earth.
Out of all the trees on Earth only one tree belonged to God.
The Tree of Life was for all to endlessly enjoy forever.
I agree with Fallen Prophet. Also, if the situation was as simple as you're saying that it was, then why would a perfect woman or man who were supposed to have loved God, fail to understand that eating from that tree meant death? Also, how could perfect Eve be deceived by the serpent? Because essentially, you are saying 1 + 1 = 2, therefore, how could a woman with a perfect mind, body, and emotions not understand that what the serpent was telling her was not true? What's so hard for a perfect person to understand?
God shared His knowledge of Good and Evil at Genesis 2:17
The 'Evil' was: death.
Very simple to understand. You break the Law and you will die.
The 'Good' was you keep the Law and you will never die. You will live forever in perfect health on Earth.
Out of all the trees on Earth only one tree belonged to God.
The Tree of Life was for all to endlessly enjoy forever.
I agree with Fallen Prophet. Also, if the situation was as simple as you're saying that it was, then why would a perfect woman or man who were supposed to have loved God, fail to understand that eating from that tree meant death? Also, how could perfect Eve be deceived by the serpent? Because essentially, you are saying 1 + 1 = 2, therefore, how could a woman with a perfect mind, body, and emotions not understand that what the serpent was telling her was not true? What's so hard for a perfect person to understand?
Malawi www.jw.org 1999 Yearbook pages 149 to 223 (171)
David Davidovich
Well-Known Member
The problem that I have with that is that there are other denominations that say the same thing... Plus, they have the scriptures to prove it. Denominations such as Seventh Day Adventists, the Baháʼí Faith (who have intricate chronology to prove their beliefs and their dates), Preterism Christianity, Judaism (or at least some versions of it), and probably more religions that I am not even aware of.
David Davidovich
Well-Known Member
Fallen Prophet said: ↑
.....It makes no sense to claim that death was "evil" when Adam and Eve had no concept of "evil".......
So, it looks like what you're saying is that Eve became interested in what the serpent was saying because the serpent said that if she ate of that tree, then she would not die... But my question is: Why would a woman with a perfect mind and perfect emotions become interested in thinking that the fruit wouldn't cause her to die? What exactly is the 'draw' for Eve? Because what you're saying makes absolutely no sense.
.....It makes no sense to claim that death was "evil" when Adam and Eve had no concept of "evil".......
So, it looks like what you're saying is that Eve became interested in what the serpent was saying because the serpent said that if she ate of that tree, then she would not die... But my question is: Why would a woman with a perfect mind and perfect emotions become interested in thinking that the fruit wouldn't cause her to die? What exactly is the 'draw' for Eve? Because what you're saying makes absolutely no sense.
David Davidovich
Well-Known Member
David Davidovich said: ↑
....... Jehovah's Witness / Malawi scandal in the 1960s.
So, give me a quote from those pages to explain to me why there wasn't a scandal related to the persecution that the Malawian Jehovah's Witnesses experienced?
....... Jehovah's Witness / Malawi scandal in the 1960s.
So, give me a quote from those pages to explain to me why there wasn't a scandal related to the persecution that the Malawian Jehovah's Witnesses experienced?
David Davidovich
Well-Known Member
Also, look up information about Jehovah's Witnesses in Mexico and the Cartilla card in the 1970s.
David Davidovich
Well-Known Member
And then then there's the issue of blood transfusions with Jehovah's Witnesses:
An in-depth discussion of the entire blood policy with individual patients may become necessary to ensure truly autonomous decisions on blood based treatment. Their advance directives and so called “blood cards” should be re-evaluated with the patients in light of the new policy. For example, doctors may ask patients who are Jehovah's Witnesses, “In view of the changing blood policy of the Watchtower Society, the component you now refuse may be considered acceptable in a few years. Are you sure you want to refuse it and die now even if you may not have to do so in the near future?” The doctor might add, “If your conscience allows you to receive this blood component but you are afraid that others may not approve your action, you might want to know that the Watchtower Society informed the media on 14 June 2000 that they ended the procedure of disfellowshipping for those who accept blood transfusions. Instead, you may be considered disassociated if your action is known to the congregation, but I assure you that your medical confidentiality is legally protected.” Needless to say, all medical information on the use of blood products in these cases should be protected from unauthorised review. Otherwise legal liability may arise because of unintended sanction based on breached medical confidentiality.
click here: Bioethical aspects of the recent changes in the policy of refusal of blood by Jehovah's Witnesses - PMC (nih.gov)
Fallen Prophet
Well-Known Member
That doesn't make any sense.
We do know that Adam and Eve were intelligent - they could speak whatever language God and Satan (the serpent) were speaking.
And they understood various things like how to "dress and keep" the Garden - and I'm sure they understood other important facts that they would need for when they entered into mortality.
But - they didn't have a Knowledge of Good and Evil. They just didn't.
Telling a young child - before they have reached the age of accountability where they can discern Good from Evil - that something was "bad" does not mean they understand what Good and Evil are.
All they know is that you told them that something was "bad" - they cannot understand it on any other level - not yet - because they are not yet accountable.
Eve - for example - understood the commandment not to eat the Fruit - because she heard it from Adam - but she had no understanding of deception.
She had knowledge of the commandment - but no Knowledge of Good and Evil.
All Adam knew after this is that Eve - the woman God had given to her and commanded him to multiply with - had partaken of the Fruit - and would therefore "die".
So - in order to remain with her - he also partook of the Fruit.
He made a decision based on two conflicting commandments - to not partake and to remain with Eve - yet he could not use the tool of Knowledge of Good and Evil to make that decision.
And if death is "evil" - why is God placing this "Evil" thing upon all of Mankind?
Does not the Bible teach that God holds people responsible for their own sins and not the sins of their parents?
Death is not evil.
The Bible teaches that death entered into the world due to the Fall of Adam.
I don't know exactly what would have happened to a bug that Adam had stepped on the Garden - but before he had partaken of the Fruit - that bug would not have died.
The Earth had not yet entered into mortality. There was no sin or death. No spiritual or physical death.
Not until Adam and Eve partook of the Fruit and entered into mortality.
It is entirely possible - or likely - that Adam didn't have any real understanding of the concept of death.
Sorta like telling a young child not to cross the street because they could get hit by a car and get hurt or die - they understand that you don't want them to do it - but they cannot fully grasp the consequences of that action.
Little children don't understand death because they lack accountability and do not have a Knowledge of Good and Evil.
Fallen Prophet
Well-Known Member
They weren't perfect.
Indeed - a Being cannot become perfected without first having a Knowledge of Good and Evil.
Fallen Prophet
Well-Known Member
I believe that the "draw" was her desire to become like God.
What child does not wish to become like their parents?
Especially if their parents are perfected and glorified?
Until the serpent lied to her - she had refrained from eating the Fruit - and if you read the Genesis account closely it claims that she believed that she should not even "touch" the Fruit - and that she had not yet even "looked" at it up until that point.
So - she had a desire to keep the commandment given to her by Adam - but the lie of the serpent - which she had no ability to detect or doubt because she lacked Knowledge of Good and Evil - made her feel secure in her decision to become more like God.
She had no desire to transgress God's law.