Why Would Christians Worship a God Who Clearly Wouldn't Lift A Finger For Them?

[Sand Dancer]

No.

Then why should we pray to Yahweh? To each his or her own.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Doesn’t it say somewhere that man is created in the image of God? So I would imagine we’ve been given all the necessary qualities to make a good go of life here. By knocking at the door I believe that means His Message is heard by everyone in the world. So you haven’t heard of the existence of the Gospels or Quran or Bhagavad-Gita etc? When we hear about these things, that’s the knock on the door of our hearts. Then it’s up to us whether we let God into our lives or not. That is, follow His ways and counsels instead of our own ideas.

I'd say that's an excellent way of framing the issue.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Baha'is believe that the Kingdom of God will be built during the New Age, and this is also called the new world order.

“Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 7

One essential difference between Baha'is and Christians is that Baha'is believe that humans will build the Kingdom of God on earth by following the blueprint instructions of Baha'u'llah, whereas Christians believe that Jesus is going to return and build a Kingdom single-handedly, so they won't have to do anything. The whole world will just be transformed instantly by Jesus -- no more war, poverty, racial prejudice, etc., and even climate change will be turned around. As a Baha'i I consider this magical thinking. Moreover, Jesus never even promised to return, He said His work was finished here and He was no more in the world and that His Kingdom is not of this world, (John 14:19, John 17:4, John 17:11, John 19:30, John 18:36). As such, what Christians believe will happen is not even supported by their own scriptures.

One thing that is holding up the ushering in of the New Age is the small number of Baha'is owing to the fact that most Christians have rejected Baha'u'llah and thus the Baha'i Faith, mostly because they continue to wait for Jesus. Baha'u'llah claimed to be the return of Christ and the Messiah the Jews await but obviously we cannot all be right, since we disagree about who that Messiah was or will be.

FYI, there is no such thing as a "Baha'i theocracy" because Baha'is are disallowed from involvement in politics, except to vote.

“The Faith which this order serves, safeguards and promotes is … essentially supernatural, supranational, entirely non-political, non-partisan, and diametrically opposed to any policy or school of thought that seeks to exalt any particular race, class or nation.” The Promised Day Is Come, vi

Moreover, any new world order that will come about will be strictly voluntary, never forced upon anyone. Membership in the Baha'i Faith will always be strictly voluntary, as it is now. We have no idea what a new world order will look like but the most we can say is that in the future, governments might choose to pattern their governing after Baha'i principles when they realize it is in their best advantage.

As opposed to the Christian faith which says, "Believe or burn." I think this is one of the major reasons people are turning away from it. The freedom of choice. I think this "believe or burn" doctrine was a means of survival when the religion was the newest kid on the block.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

They want a Ba'hai theocracy.
I grant that they are not Christian Dominionists. But being humans with a theocratic ideal, that change will come with power.

I don't see the Ba'hai faith as a belief system structured to attempt to gain power. It preaches freedom to join or not, as opposed to the RCC circa 435 CE Council of Nicaea which said the price for not joining was eternal damnation. Of course that was back in the days of the crumbling Roman empire when the RCC was the only institution standing after Rome fell and people looked to the church for guidance. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

 

[ppp]

I don't see the Ba'hai faith as a belief system structured to attempt to gain power. It preaches freedom to join or not, as opposed to the RCC circa 435 CE Council of Nicaea which said the price for not joining was eternal damnation. Of course that was back in the days of the crumbling Roman empire when the RCC was the only institution standing after Rome fell and people looked to the church for guidance. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

I think that the fact that they believe that the world ought to be run by a baha'i council, and that what their messengers of god say is moral and immoral is true with no need for demonstration means that they are one crumbling empire and one power vacuum away from being an RCC. Or an Islam. Not because they are Baha'i, but because they are humans with that they believe to be a divine mandate.

 

[Trailblazer]

As opposed to the Christian faith which says, "Believe or burn." I think this is one of the major reasons people are turning away from it. The freedom of choice. I think this "believe or burn" doctrine was a means of survival when the religion was the newest kid on the block.

I think that the believe or burn was written at a time in history when humans were not as spiritually evolved as they are now, so scare tactics were necessary to get people to fear and thus obey God. Now, in this new age, scare tactics are no longer necessary, because people can understand that it is in their best interest to believe in and worship God.

It makes no sense to continue to pedal beliefs derived from the Bible that were written for people who lived thousands of years ago. Everything changes over time, so I don't understand why religious people think religion should be the exception.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

I think that the believe or burn was written at a time in history when humans were not as spiritually evolved as they are now, so scare tactics were necessary to get people to fear and thus obey God. Now, in this new age, scare tactics are no longer necessary, because people can understand that it is in their best interest to believe in and worship God.

It makes no sense to continue to pedal beliefs derived from the Bible that were written for people who lived thousands of years ago. Everything changes over time, so I don't understand why religious people think religion should be the exception.

And there lies the church's conundrum: change and give up cherish traditional beliefs or don't change and die, as the church is doing now.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

I think that the fact that they believe that the world ought to be run by a baha'i council, and that what their messengers of god say is moral and immoral is true with no need for demonstration means that they are one crumbling empire and one power vacuum away from being an RCC. Or an Islam. Not because they are Baha'i, but because they are humans with that they believe to be a divine mandate.

Baha'i are a very small group nowhere near the size of Christianity/RCC. I don't know much about the divine mandate of the Baha'i religion. I'm pretty sure they will never get anywhere near the size of the latter so there's not much danger of power corrupting their leaders. I think if they believe the world ought to be run by them it's only because they have a benign belief they have the answer to the world's ills. Of course were they to get as big as the RCC then they'd be put to the test.

 

[Trailblazer]

And there lies the church's conundrum: change and give up cherish traditional beliefs or don't change and die, as the church is doing now.

The problem is that they really cannot change because Christians adhere to the Bible and the Bible cannot be changed.

Christianity fulfilled its purpose for the age in which it was revealed, but the world is very different in this new age, and humanity has a whole new set of problems that Christianity cannot address with the Bible. That is why God revealed a new religion for this age, called the Baha'i Faith.

“And now concerning thy question regarding the nature of religion. Know thou that they who are truly wise have likened the world unto the human temple. As the body of man needeth a garment to clothe it, so the body of mankind must needs be adorned with the mantle of justice and wisdom. Its robe is the Revelation vouchsafed unto it by God. Whenever this robe hath fulfilled its purpose, the Almighty will assuredly renew it. For every age requireth a fresh measure of the light of God. Every Divine Revelation hath been sent down in a manner that befitted the circumstances of the age in which it hath appeared.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 81

 

[Bird123]

I go onto a BBS and read stories from COVID long haulers--those who have had COVID and are testing negative but carry a variety of lingering symptoms like fatigue, shortness of breath, difficulty breathing, body aches, joint pain--a whole cornucopia of symptoms ranging from mild to unbearable. The majority of them are posting prayer requests for family members or themselves and members respond with praying icons accompanied by "Praying". Most are still suffering these horrible residual problems 6 to 9 months after acquiring the infection.

What bewilders me to no end is why people pray to God when He clearly is not going to answer their prayers. I mean WHY????? Statistically some recover at about the same rate as people of other religions and atheists so it's not like God is rushing to help Christians. I pointed out elsewhere that statistically if 70% of Americans identify as Christian and 350,000 people have already died from COVID that means that 245,000 Christians had family members, friends and church members praying for them and yet these people died anyway, and not comfortably but in the most terrible manner imaginable--for days to weeks feeling like they were breathing through a straw according to many, and an unrelenting feeling like they were suffocating every minute of the day along with all the pain.

"These are God's children," I thought, and God doesn't lift a finger to help them even though Jesus promised, "If you ask the Father for anything in my name He will grant it." I mean He doesn't even let them die comfortably. He has to put them through the worst torture imaginable. If He had any mercy at least He'd let them die quickly and painlessly.

It doesn't stop with COVID. Think of the millions of Christian children dying of cancer who had good Christian parents and their families praying for them and they died slow agonizing deaths anyway. What about the millions of homeless, jobless, unemployed and sick who pray night and day and never receive what they need? Oh I know a few have some stories about how God helped them but statistically it's no different than the rate other non-Christians get out of trouble.

The adage "Nothing fails like prayer" is so true. I prayed when I was a Christian. I never had prayers answered. It's so obvious God doesn't answer prayer and yet people still pray. Christians please explain why--outside of praying you find your lost car keys--you pray when you must know deep down the more difficult the request the less likely your problems are going to be resolved by God.

Worship or don't worship, it doesn't mean a thing. It's not about worship.

God will grant his children anything as long as it does not interfere with their lesson or the lessons of others. Atheists are God's children as well so this includes them.

Is God's purpose really to let children have anything they want? Is God's purpose to let all these kids have it made? Should that really be the criteria of what constitutes Love??

Isn't there so much more going on than the goal of having it made??

Adversity breeds invention. Death is no more than a change. It's so easy to choose to see doom and gloom, but how does it change things for the better?

Modern medicine has come a long way. A Covid-19 vaccine was created in less than 1 year. Just a few hundred years ago, there would never have been a vaccine. Doesn't overcoming the sicknesses of the past lead us to our capabilities of the future? Without the adversity, the knowledge would never have been acquired. How much will medicine progress from our troubles today? There is only one way to move: Forward!!

Go ahead and pray if you like. God hears it all. It brings emotional security to many. Prayer can be as simple as a thought. How could that really hurt anyone?

Know that God has fixed it all ahead of time for no matter what happens, we are all Eternal!!

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[ppp]

Baha'i are a very small group nowhere near the size of Christianity/RCC. I don't know much about the divine mandate of the Baha'i religion. I'm pretty sure they will never get anywhere near the size of the latter so there's not much danger of power corrupting their leaders. I think if they believe the world ought to be run by them it's only because they have a benign belief they have the answer to the world's ills. Of course were they to get as big as the RCC then they'd be put to the test.

There are 8 times the number of Baha'i now as there were Christians in 200 AD. And the US has been a crumbling empire since the Soviet Bloc fell.

 

[Trailblazer]

Baha'i are a very small group nowhere near the size of Christianity/RCC. I don't know much about the divine mandate of the Baha'i religion. I'm pretty sure they will never get anywhere near the size of the latter so there's not much danger of power corrupting their leaders. I think if they believe the world ought to be run by them it's only because they have a benign belief they have the answer to the world's ills. Of course were they to get as big as the RCC then they'd be put to the test.

Please bear in mind that all religions are small in the beginning centuries, and Christianity was very small at its inception.

How many Jews became Christians in the first century?

Paul established Christian churches throughout the Roman Empire, including Europe, and beyond, even into Africa, but the church remained small and was persecuted. Then, after Constantine won victory over his rival in battle to become the Roman emperor, he attributed his success to the Christian God and immediately proclaimed his conversion to Christianity, and after that Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire.

The Muslim community spread through the Middle East through conquest, and the resulting growth of the Muslim state provided the ground in which the recently revealed faith could take root and flourish.

There is no way to know how long it will take for the Baha'i Faith to grow larger, but it will not grow the same way that Christianity grew because it cannot become an official religion associated with any government, nor can it grow through conquest, as happened with Islam. The only way the Baha'i Faith will grow is through Baha'is teaching the Faith, but it is very difficult for us because we are bucking a headwind given Christianity ans Islam are not willing to give up their turf, and the same can be said for all the older religions. People normally only become Baha'is because they have the same vision, the oneness of humanity, the oneness of religion, and unity of mankind, and they want to be part of the solution to the world's spiritual, social, and economic problems. They do not become Baha'is because of a promise of heaven; although that is the natural outcome that is not why we do what we do.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Please bear in mind that all religions are small in the beginning centuries, and Christianity was very small at its inception.

How many Jews became Christians in the first century?

Paul established Christian churches throughout the Roman Empire, including Europe, and beyond, even into Africa, but the church remained small and was persecuted. Then, after Constantine won victory over his rival in battle to become the Roman emperor, he attributed his success to the Christian God and immediately proclaimed his conversion to Christianity, and after that Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire.

The Muslim community spread through the Middle East through conquest, and the resulting growth of the Muslim state provided the ground in which the recently revealed faith could take root and flourish.

There is no way to know how long it will take for the Baha'i Faith to grow larger, but it will not grow the same way that Christianity grew because it cannot become an official religion associated with any government, nor can it grow through conquest, as happened with Islam. The only way the Baha'i Faith will grow is through Baha'is teaching the Faith, but it is very difficult for us because we are bucking a headwind given Christianity ans Islam are not willing to give up their turf, and the same can be said for all the older religions. People normally only become Baha'is because they have the same vision, the oneness of humanity, the oneness of religion, and unity of mankind, and they want to be part of the solution to the world's spiritual, social, and economic problems. They do not become Baha'is because of a promise of heaven; although that is the natural outcome that is not why we do what we do.

The problem the Baha'i faith will have is the exact same problem Christianity is having: the 1st world is moving away from faith and becoming secularized. All faiths are declining in developed countries. It's a different story in the 3rd world where lack of education makes minds more pliable.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I think that the fact that they believe that the world ought to be run by a baha'i council, and that what their messengers of god say is moral and immoral is true with no need for demonstration means that they are one crumbling empire and one power vacuum away from being an RCC. Or an Islam. Not because they are Baha'i, but because they are humans with that they believe to be a divine mandate.

Actually the Bahá’í House of Justice is only for the administration of the Bahá’í Faith and Bahá’í matters.

Another interesting aspect is that the Founder, Baha’u’llah, abolished individual power. So there are no individual Baha’is who hold any power at all. All decisions are arrived at by majority vote by elected bodies using consultation, independent investigation of matters and prayer to arrive at decisions.

There is no force. People are free to come and go.

 

[ppp]

Actually the Bahá’í House of Justice is only for the administration of the Bahá’í Faith and Bahá’í matters.

Another interesting aspect is that the Founder, Baha’u’llah, abolished individual power. So there are no individual Baha’is who hold any power at all. All decisions are arrived at by majority vote by elected bodies using consultation, independent investigation of matters and prayer to arrive at decisions.

There is no force. People are free to come and go.

While that is not responsive to my post, it is certainly some fun bits of trivia. Thanks!

 

[loverofhumanity]

While that is not responsive to my post, it is certainly some fun bits of trivia. Thanks!

Crumbling? Have you turned on the news recently? That’s crumbling.

 

[Trailblazer]

The problem the Baha'i faith will have is the exact same problem Christianity is having: the 1st world is moving away from faith and becoming secularized. All faiths are declining in developed countries. It's a different story in the 3rd world where lack of education makes minds more pliable.

I do not think that the Baha'i Faith will have the same problem as the older religions because it appeals to the highly educated. Compared to adherents to older religions, Baha'is are much more educated on average, many holding advanced degrees. The problem it will have is that it is a religion, and most agnostics and atheists employ the fallacy of hasty generalization and assume all religions are the same. That shows that they are not as smart as they think they are.

 

[ppp]

Crumbling? Have you turned on the news recently? That’s crumbling.

I am not sure what you are trying to imply. Do you think that we are seeing "new" behaviors? Because that isn't new in feature or scale. Just a more visible and symbolic location.

 

[Trailblazer]

Crumbling? Have you turned on the news recently? That’s crumbling.

That is just one more proof of Baha'u'llah, as He predicted this crumbling 150 years ago.

“Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 7

 

[loverofhumanity]

I am not sure what you are trying to imply. Do you think that we are seeing "new" behaviors? Because that isn't new in feature or scale. Just a more visible and symbolic location.

Sorry. Maybe I’m missing the point. So I’m ready to be enlightened.