Why Would Christians Worship a God Who Clearly Wouldn't Lift A Finger For Them?

[Glaurung]

That's pretty nice of him--to watch but not intervene. I mean I can get a bum on the street to watch me die. If God, who is all powerful and could cure me with a snap of His fingers, is just going to stand by and watch while I bleed out what good is He?

The salvation of your soul. The immortal, indestructible and eternal consciousness that exists in every human being. If you take the Christian tradition seriously then for a person in good conscience before God death is nothing to fear. It is human to fear death but death is not the ultimate horror. Unless you have convinced yourself that this world is all there is.

It is simply the process of leaving one world for another. And who knows... If the stories of claimed past life memories have any validity you may even get to come back here. Not that as a Christian I'm personally counting on that possibility.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

The salvation of your soul. The immortal, indestructible and eternal consciousness that exists in every human being. If you take the Christian tradition seriously then for a person in good conscience before God death is nothing to fear. It is human to fear death but death is not the ultimate horror. Unless you have convinced yourself that this world is all there is.

It is simply the process of leaving one world for another. And who knows... If the stories of claimed past life memories have any validity you may even get to come back here. Not that as a Christian I'm personally counting on that possibility.

Wait! Do you believe in past life regression and reincarnation?

 

[Trailblazer]

That's a winner, Trail. The ONLY thing that somewhat convinces me that there is a higher intelligence out there is the fact we are here at all. To survey the history of the world from the primordial soup to 8 billion sentient intelligent and sophisticated humans, not to mention the incredibly complex life that sprouted up--and the fact that every strand of DNA in our body is encoded with a set of instructions as thick as the Encyclopedia Britannica just boggles my mind. Given the odds of something like 10 to the 950th power it should not have happened and yet here were are. Yet seemingly we find ourselves alone. Scientists think that in this entire galaxy we are the only life form that has developed to such lengths. The very first humans should have been wiped out by animals or disease but they weren't. Incredible. That is the very definition of a deist God.

I never really considered Creation the best proof of God's existence, but the way you explained the DNA stuff is mind boggling. Please bear in mind that I do not have an academic background in the hard sciences. I studied geography and much later psychology and homeopathy, so I am not scientifically inclined. Although I find science fascinating one only has so much time to study.

I consider the best proof of God's existence to be Messengers of God, and I even started a thread on that a few months ago entitled What would be evidence that God exists?

It starts out as noted below, and hopefully you will read the rest of it.

"My premise is that Messengers of God are the only real evidence that God exists because they are the evidence that God provides and wants us to look at in order to determine that He exists."

Because I believe in Messengers of God and the religions they establish, I am truly a theist. I said I stand on the border between deism and theism because I really do not know what God is doing or not doing, and that's true, but there is more to it than that. Let's just say I do not share the sentiments about the All-Loving God of those other RF members who are of my religion, @ adrian009, @ Tony Bristow-Stagg , @ InvestigateTruth , and @ loverofhumanity.

There are some other sentiments I do not share with those of my religion. I agree that tests have the "potential" to make us stronger and more spiritual, I do not believe that tests are "gifts" from God for which we should thank Him, and I do not believe that if we don't see it this way we are a coward rather than a brave and holy soul. Sorry, I just cannot buy that bill of goods. Admittedly it is probably because most of my life has been suffering, but so what? It is difficult to be grateful to a God who allowed me to suffer through no fault of my own, and even more difficult to love Him, just because the scriptures say I should. Love just does not work that way.

So here we are, you and I, and I think we have a lot in common, the difference being I have a religion and I am certain that God exists.

 

[Glaurung]

Wait! Do you believe in past life regression and reincarnation?

Not exactly. As a Christian reincarnation is not a part of my formal belief system. But at the same time I don't completely dismiss the possibility that it could be real. There may indeed be more things in Heaven and Earth than I have dreamt up.

I do dismiss past life regression as nonsense though. Hypnosis is a minefield of suggestion and confabulation. My point in any case remains the same. Death for the Christian is not the principle concern. Our principle concern is the part of us that survives death. Whether or not that part of us can come back here is something I only mentioned as an aside.

As such no one ought to complain that God is unjust because no one is exempt from the sufferings innate to this life. The salvation promised in the New Testament is not a divine guarantee of our physical well-being.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I go onto a BBS and read stories from COVID long haulers--those who have had COVID and are testing negative but carry a variety of lingering symptoms like fatigue, shortness of breath, difficulty breathing, body aches, joint pain--a whole cornucopia of symptoms ranging from mild to unbearable. The majority of them are posting prayer requests for family members or themselves and members respond with praying icons accompanied by "Praying". Most are still suffering these horrible residual problems 6 to 9 months after acquiring the infection.

What bewilders me to no end is why people pray to God when He clearly is not going to answer their prayers. I mean WHY????? Statistically some recover at about the same rate as people of other religions and atheists so it's not like God is rushing to help Christians. I pointed out elsewhere that statistically if 70% of Americans identify as Christian and 350,000 people have already died from COVID that means that 245,000 Christians had family members, friends and church members praying for them and yet these people died anyway, and not comfortably but in the most terrible manner imaginable--for days to weeks feeling like they were breathing through a straw according to many, and an unrelenting feeling like they were suffocating every minute of the day along with all the pain.

"These are God's children," I thought, and God doesn't lift a finger to help them even though Jesus promised, "If you ask the Father for anything in my name He will grant it." I mean He doesn't even let them die comfortably. He has to put them through the worst torture imaginable. If He had any mercy at least He'd let them die quickly and painlessly.

It doesn't stop with COVID. Think of the millions of Christian children dying of cancer who had good Christian parents and their families praying for them and they died slow agonizing deaths anyway. What about the millions of homeless, jobless, unemployed and sick who pray night and day and never receive what they need? Oh I know a few have some stories about how God helped them but statistically it's no different than the rate other non-Christians get out of trouble.

The adage "Nothing fails like prayer" is so true. I prayed when I was a Christian. I never had prayers answered. It's so obvious God doesn't answer prayer and yet people still pray. Christians please explain why--outside of praying you find your lost car keys--you pray when you must know deep down the more difficult the request the less likely your problems are going to be resolved by God.

Your post's title (God does "nothing" for anyone) has been conflated with "God allows suffering to refine believers".

 

[Audie]

It's clear that the Christians here are just excuse-making for Jesus and God. Fact is God doesn't intervene in man's affairs. He's AWOL. He's a deist God. That explains perfectly why we see no evidence of God moving in this world. I'd like one Christian to give us an example of a miraculous event that happened to them as a result of prayer that couldn't be explained by a natural result. I guarantee you nobody can do it. If it were true, such a miracle would be written up in every scientific journal on earth.

Regrow a missing leg, say.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Regrow a missing leg, say.

I wish a Christian would turn that one up. That'd convert everybody.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Your post's title (God does "nothing" for anyone) has been conflated with "God allows suffering to refine believers".

You mean before he flat-out kills them?

 

[Audie]

ahHA! Now you're catching on, Audie. The person in the gospels is clearly NOT the person who actually lived. So who is the person in the gospels? Well, obviously he is a product of the imaginations of the guys who were writing the gospels. They didn't have any info on him. There weren't any written records of who this guy in reality was. The writers had absolutely nothing to go on. So they borrowed from the Odyssey, and legends of other dying/rising gods that were in vogue and they let their imaginations fill in the rest. And presto. We get someone molded into what the people in the early Christian faith wanted in their own dying/rising god.

What else is there to think about god- stories
involving Jesus or anyone else?

 

[Audie]

I wish a Christian would turn that one up. That'd convert everybody.

There's a reason for the great emphasis on faith.

 

[Audie]

That's a winner, Trail. The ONLY thing that somewhat convinces me that there is a higher intelligence out there is the fact we are here at all. To survey the history of the world from the primordial soup to 8 billion sentient intelligent and sophisticated humans, not to mention the incredibly complex life that sprouted up--and the fact that every strand of DNA in our body is encoded with a set of instructions as thick as the Encyclopedia Britannica just boggles my mind. Given the odds of something like 10 to the 950th power it should not have happened and yet here were are. Yet seemingly we find ourselves alone. Scientists think that in this entire galaxy we are the only life form that has developed to such lengths. The very first humans should have been wiped out by animals or disease but they weren't. Incredible. That is the very definition of a deist God.

The first humans? Who, when?

And why wiped out by animals?

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Not exactly. As a Christian reincarnation is not a part of my formal belief system. But at the same time I don't completely dismiss the possibility that it could be real. There may indeed be more things in Heaven and Earth than I have dreamt up.

I do dismiss past life regression as nonsense though. Hypnosis is a minefield of suggestion and confabulation. My point in any case remains the same. Death for the Christian is not the principle concern. Our principle concern is the part of us that survives death. Whether or not that part of us can come back here is something I only mentioned as an aside.

As such no one ought to complain that God is unjust because no one is exempt from the sufferings innate to this life. The salvation promised in the New Testament is not a divine guarantee of our physical well-being.

I'm referring to basically one dynamic: Christian prays for healing for himself or a family member but family member dies. Something like this: "Dear Father in heaven. Your son Jesus promises us that if we ask you for anything in his name you will grant it. I now ask that you heal my beloved child of this horrible illness. I claim this promise in Jesus' name. Amen." But the child dies. Millions of children die after their parents pray this prayer. God doesn't lift a finger to help the child. Why? Because prayer doesn't work. God is a deist God. He doesn't interfere with nature's natural course.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

The first humans? Who, when?

And why wiped out by animals?

Okay, how about disease?

 

[Audie]

Okay, how about disease?

I think this is an interesting topic worth discussing.

Really who do you consider first humans?

H erectus, something earlier?

The predstor thing is worth looking at.

Disease, not so much as the same reasons applies to all living things that exist.

Primates may have a bit of advantage, with hands to treat some injuries, like pulling out stickers.

People are not well armed except with brains.
Clearly we did survive predation.

Q is how.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Lots of good stuff in here, humanity. let me get in as much as I can:

par. 1: Some things, humanity have nothing to do with learning from experience. For example hundreds of thousands of children are sold into slavery, mostly sexual. They are used until their masters get bored or tired of them. The children live horrible lives crying and screaming from repeated abuse day after day. Those who aren't murdered and discarded are damaged for life and turn to drugs and prostitution. Please explain to us how such ghastly circumstances give glory to God.

par 2: And where is God in all this? Perhaps He put us here and ditched us with the admonishment, "Learn how to find solutions for yourselves because you aren't going to get any help from me." At least that's what I see when I look around.

I can't do every paragraph I just realized, humanity. let me just say that you're right. Much of this we brought upon ourselves. But that has nothing to do with God and everything to do with the fact that life stinks. Period. That's all we can say.

There is help at hand from God if we choose to use it.

God never abandons us but expects us to meet Him halfway and to make an effort.

He brings us new laws for each age that will definitely work, that’s His part. Out part is to implement them. The problem is we think we know better so we reject His laws until the unthinkable happens and our much vaunted civilisation collapses.

But must we always wait until then?

We’ve tried all sorts of systems, communism, socialism, nationalism and democracy but there are major flaws in each. We just can’t seem to get the balance right.

God knew this and so sent a Representative with a blueprint to how to create a functioning, harmonious world civilisation. The rest is up to us.

 

[Audie]

There is help at hand from God if we choose to use it.

God never abandons us but expects us to meet Him halfway and to make an effort.

He brings us new laws for each age that will definitely work, that’s His part. Out part is to implement them. The problem is we think we know better so we reject His laws until the unthinkable happens and our much vaunted civilisation collapses.

But must we always wait until then?

We’ve tried all sorts of systems, communism, socialism, nationalism and democracy but there are major flaws in each. We just can’t seem to get the balance right.

God knew this and so sent a Representative with a blueprint to how to create a functioning, harmonious world civilisation. The rest is up to us.

Next time you are drowning you can reach your
hand as high as you like and ask him to help
out a little but you will not find. "Him" meeting
you half way.

 

[Audie]

There is help at hand from God if we choose to use it.

God never abandons us but expects us to meet Him halfway and to make an effort.

He brings us new laws for each age that will definitely work, that’s His part. Out part is to implement them. The problem is we think we know better so we reject His laws until the unthinkable happens and our much vaunted civilisation collapses.

But must we always wait until then?

We’ve tried all sorts of systems, communism, socialism, nationalism and democracy but there are major flaws in each. We just can’t seem to get the balance right.

God knew this and so sent a Representative with a blueprint to how to create a functioning, harmonious world civilisation. The rest is up to us.

Oh? What blueprint is that?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Next time you are drowning you can reach your
hand as high as you like and ask him to help
out a little but you will not find. "Him" meeting
you half way.

We all die. No one lives forever here. But we should learn how to swim to avoid such situations.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Oh? What blueprint is that?

Its called the Most Holy Book.

 

[Audie]

Its called the Most Holy Book.

Ah so desu ka. That plan for utopia.

When you invade a city, kill everyone except the girls.
Then -
Check them for virginity, kill them if they don't
pass inspection.