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Why Would Christians Worship a God Who Clearly Wouldn't Lift A Finger For Them?

SeekingAllTruth

Well-Known Member
Obviously that’s not exactly what he said.

More like this.

146:2.10 9. “I have come forth from the Father; if, therefore, you are ever in doubt as to what you would ask of the Father, ask in my name, and I will present your petition in accordance with your real needs and desires and in accordance with my Father's will.” Guard against the great danger of becoming self-centered in your prayers. Avoid praying much for yourself; pray more for the spiritual progress of your brethren. Avoid materialistic praying; pray in the spirit and for the abundance of the gifts of the spirit.” UB 1955

That's not the way my Bible reads, cOLTER:

I can guarantee this truth: If you ask the Father for anything in my name, he will give it to you.

And

Matthew 21:22


And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive.”
John 16:24


Until now you have asked for nothing in My name; ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be made full.
John 14:14


If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.
1 John 5:14


Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
John 15:16


You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.
John 20:31


In that day you will not question Me about anything. Truly, truly, I say to you, if you ask the Father for anything in My name, He will give it to you. Until now you have asked for nothing in My name; ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be made full.
John 15:7


If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
Colossians 3:17


Therefore I say to you, all things for which you pray and ask, believe that you have received them, and they will be granted you.
1 Corinthians 1:2
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I think it's time to acknowledge that the church leaders sold Christians a bill of goods. Nobody trying to convert a non-Christian to Christ says, "Now understand God isn't a tooth fairy. You can't just ask him for a good job and a roof over your head and to heal you when you're sick. God isn't a vending machine. You're going to have to get this stuff by yourself. God helps those who help themselves." The person is likely to say, "Well, then why in hell do I need God." No, they always trot out, "If you ask the Father for anything in Jesus name he will give it to you. That's a promise in the Bible."

I'm not sure I get what you're saying. Praying to god is communication of gratitude and finding strength and healing to better the person and being mindful of the other to whom one is praying for. It's not intended to cure sickness, for example. If that be the case, christians would be praying 24/7 and everyone would be cured. It's another word for "keeping one in mind" and how one does so depends on the religious person's practice.
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
That's not the way my Bible reads, cOLTER:

I can guarantee this truth: If you ask the Father for anything in my name, he will give it to you.

And

Matthew 21:22


And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive.”
John 16:24


Until now you have asked for nothing in My name; ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be made full.
John 14:14


If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.
1 John 5:14


Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
John 15:16


You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.
John 20:31


In that day you will not question Me about anything. Truly, truly, I say to you, if you ask the Father for anything in My name, He will give it to you. Until now you have asked for nothing in My name; ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be made full.
John 15:7


If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
Colossians 3:17


Therefore I say to you, all things for which you pray and ask, believe that you have received them, and they will be granted you.
1 Corinthians 1:2
That’s how it was remembered but obviously not true. Jesus would have never said ask for anything you want and you will get it. That defies common sense.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
My understanding is that most of our suffering is self inflicted. The rest, things such as sleeping, eating, drinking, illness and death have been enforced upon us as conditions for existence in this world to enable us to develop spiritually. For example, one cannot learn things like patience or tolerance from going to university or attaining a degree or reading a book. Only through being ‘tested’ or challenged can we develop spiritual qualities.

As the purpose of this life is not to stay here forever and is designed to enable us to evolve into mature spiritual beings, the world is constructed in a manner which enables us to learn spiritually from both our physical suffering as well as our own mistakes. For instance, when we create wars we suffer. When we pollute the environment nature retaliates. Cause and effect. Whatever we sow, we reap.

COVID 19 how did it start? Nobody knows but fingers point towards ourselves. Either through negligence, uncleanliness or mismanagement, it is not yet known. But we need to learn from it. We will be forced to examine its origin for our own survival and that will force nations against their will to work together as well as expose what is keeping us from coming together. To prevent this from happening again, nations will have to try and trust each other but if they can, it will bring a new era of stability in the world.

We must fix these problems ourselves. Nobody can do this but us. We need to learn why the virus happened and that means not playing politics but genuine statesmanship.

When we do something wrong we ask God to fix it for us. What if God’s answer to the prayer is that He wants us to learn from our mistakes - and that is His answer? But the prayer appears to have no answer.

However, in reality, God does not ignore us. He gave us science and medical science is creating a vaccine.

Because we live in a very materialistic age and mindset, the purpose of prayer, which was meant for the sole purpose of creating a loving bond between God and man, has been misused. The highest prayer is for the love of God, not hope for heaven or fear of hell or give me this or give me that. But although we are God’s servants, we have made Him our servant and likened prayer to rubbing the lamp where a genie will appear granting our wishes.

God gave us life but we are unappreciative and expect that He grant us too, our wishes for wealth and create world peace and rid the world of germs!

Yet has He not continually sent Divine Educators, Who were treated by us with the utmost contempt & cruelty, to guide us how to live healthy, balanced and happy lives? Did we listen or go our own way experimenting and developing dangerous weapons and germs? Buddha, Jesus, Muhammad and all the Great Teachers advised a simple lifestyle. But we ignored them and now live in cancer ridden, drug addicted, alcohol addicted, domestic abused, crime infested societies and more or less blame God why He hasn’t answered our prayers?

He sent us Christ we crucified Him, He sent us other Messengers Whom we stoned, imprisoned and exiled.

All the signs say to me that God is answering our prayers by telling us to learn from these mistakes, take responsibility for them and work together to fix them. That is the answer to the prayer in my humble opinion.

But those who still wait for a magic wand to be waved, or a genie to appear or Christ to come with angels on a cloud can wait like those who waited before them as ages & centuries passed by with nothing happening except that we had to suffer until we changed.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
That's not the way my Bible reads, cOLTER:

I can guarantee this truth: If you ask the Father for anything in my name, he will give it to you.

And

Matthew 21:22


And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive.”
John 16:24


Until now you have asked for nothing in My name; ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be made full.
John 14:14


If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.
1 John 5:14


Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
John 15:16


You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.
John 20:31


In that day you will not question Me about anything. Truly, truly, I say to you, if you ask the Father for anything in My name, He will give it to you. Until now you have asked for nothing in My name; ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be made full.
John 15:7


If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
Colossians 3:17


Therefore I say to you, all things for which you pray and ask, believe that you have received them, and they will be granted you.
1 Corinthians 1:2

Ask for a billion dollars.
 

Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
Maybe we should instead acknowledge what is the real truth: God simply doesn't answer prayers even though Jesus said, "Lo, I am with you always." You forget that in all four gospels Jesus does make numerous promises to give us what we need.
What we need and what we want are not the same thing. God answers prayers, but the answer isn't necessarily going to be to our liking. God has just as much right to say 'no' as he does 'yes' all according to his providence.

In this life suffering is inevitable. Death is inevitable. God abandons no one but that doesn't mean we are promised an easy pleasant time in the vale of tears. If anything the Gospels teach that getting too comfortable here is dangerous because such comfort tends to spiritual and even moral complacency.

If anything this pandemic is a warning. It shows us just how fragile we are. Our sophisticated, technological and global civilization can be brought to its knees by a bad flu. We should be thankful we don't have something that could really cause a collapse, like say a hypothetical airborne Ebola.

There is always grace. But to respond to grace we have to swallow our illusions of self-sufficiency. And we have to accept that God's will isn't that we have a nice pleasant time where everything always goes our way, but that we cling to him and choose the good even in the depths of darkness. It is often only in disaster that human nobility really expresses itself. That opportunity for nobility just may be the good deed that saves your soul.
 
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SeekingAllTruth

Well-Known Member
What we need and what we want are not the same thing. God answers prayers, but the answer isn't necessarily going to be to our liking. God has just as much right to say 'no' as he does 'yes' all according to his providence.

In this life suffering is inevitable. Death is inevitable. God abandons no one but that doesn't mean we are promised an easy pleasant time in the vale of tears. If anything the Gospels teach that getting too comfortable here is dangerous because such comfort tends to spiritual and even moral complacency.

If anything this pandemic is a warning. It shows us just how fragile we are. Our sophisticated, technological and global civilization can be brought to its knees by a bad flu. We should be thankful we don't have something that could really cause a collapse, like say a hypothetical airborne Ebola.

There is always grace. But to respond to grace we have to swallow our illusions of self-sufficiency. And we have to accept that God's will isn't that we have a nice pleasant time where everything always goes our way, but that we cling to him and choose the good even in the depths of darkness. It is often only in disaster that human nobility really expresses itself. That opportunity for nobility just may be the good deed that saves your soul.

You're not reading the verses. Here they are again. Please explain to me how there is any equivocation in Jesus' and Paul's words:

I can guarantee this truth: If you ask the Father for anything in my name, he will give it to you.

Now read with me, Musing:

I can guarantee this truth In other words Jesus is saying,

"I make this solemn promise to you who read this: IF you ask the Father ANYTHING, I mean ANY THING in my name HE... WILL.... GIVE.... IT... TO... YOU!!

ASK FOR ANY THING In My NAME And My FATHER WILL GIVE IT TO YOU!!

Now tell me, Musing, do you read any equivocation in those words? Hmmm? Or do you read a clear unambiguous oath "I can Guarantee This" from Jesus that all we have to do is ask the Father For ANYTHING in Jesus' name and the Father will give it to us?

Matthew 21:22


And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive.”
John 16:24


Until now you have asked for nothing in My name; ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be made full.
John 14:14


If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.
1 John 5:14


Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
John 15:16


You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.
John 20:31


In that day you will not question Me about anything. Truly, truly, I say to you, if you ask the Father for anything in My name, He will give it to you. Until now you have asked for nothing in My name; ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be made full.
John 15:7


If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
Colossians 3:17


Therefore I say to you, all things for which you pray and ask, believe that you have received them, and they will be granted you.
1 Corinthians 1:2

Any ambiguity in all these words, Musings???
 

SeekingAllTruth

Well-Known Member
Ask for a billion dollars.

Do It.

Audie, you're looking at it from the reality that it won't happen. I realize it won't. We all realize it won't. But that's what Jesus promises. Jesus lied. That's why God doesn't answer prayers. It was stupid of Jesus to make that promise in the first place. But he did, and here we are.
 

SeekingAllTruth

Well-Known Member
That’s how it was remembered but obviously not true. Jesus would have never said ask for anything you want and you will get it. That defies common sense.


cOLTER, there is a very good commonsense reason why these promises appear so frequently in the Bible. It's no accident they are there. They were put there for a very good reason. I'll get to the reason why later.
 

SeekingAllTruth

Well-Known Member
I'm not sure I get what you're saying. Praying to god is communication of gratitude and finding strength and healing to better the person and being mindful of the other to whom one is praying for. It's not intended to cure sickness, for example. If that be the case, christians would be praying 24/7 and everyone would be cured. It's another word for "keeping one in mind" and how one does so depends on the religious person's practice.

>>>>>>>It's not intended to cure sickness, for example.

Who told you that, Artist? Read with me:

I can guarantee this truth In other words Jesus is saying,

"I make this solemn promise to you who read this: IF you ask the Father ANYTHING, I mean ANY THING in my name HE... WILL.... GIVE.... IT... TO... YOU!!

ASK FOR ANY THING In My NAME And My FATHER WILL GIVE IT TO YOU!!

Is sickness included in ANYTHING, Artist?
 
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Audie

Veteran Member
Do It.

Audie, you're looking at it from the reality that it won't happen. I realize it won't. We all realize it won't. But that's what Jesus promises. Jesus lied. That's why God doesn't answer prayers. It was stupid of Jesus to make that promise in the first place. But he did, and here we are.

Perhaps. My take is that whoever Jesus was
is very different from what he's been made into.

99 percent of it, maybe all of it as much a product of making things up, as the portraits you see.
 

Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
@SeekingAllTruth

Taking isolated verses out of context (both the context of the chapter and the Christian tradition of interpretation) and insisting that they must mean what you insist they mean isn't a worthwhile approach to Scripture. The question to ask is not what you can force out of isolated decontextualized verses but what do they mean in the context of the whole work. No, I don't read the Gospels and get the impression that God is going to cater to my whims or even physical well-being. I do get the impression that God will always be present, even in the worst of suffering.
 

SeekingAllTruth

Well-Known Member
Perhaps. My take is that whoever Jesus was
is very different from what he's been made into.

99 percent of it, maybe all of it as much a product of making things up, as the portraits you see.
ahHA! Now you're catching on, Audie. The person in the gospels is clearly NOT the person who actually lived. So who is the person in the gospels? Well, obviously he is a product of the imaginations of the guys who were writing the gospels. They didn't have any info on him. There weren't any written records of who this guy in reality was. The writers had absolutely nothing to go on. So they borrowed from the Odyssey, and legends of other dying/rising gods that were in vogue and they let their imaginations fill in the rest. And presto. We get someone molded into what the people in the early Christian faith wanted in their own dying/rising god.
 

SeekingAllTruth

Well-Known Member
@SeekingAllTruth

Taking isolated verses out of context (both the context of the chapter and the Christian tradition of interpretation) and insisting that they must mean what you insist they mean isn't a worthwhile approach to Scripture. The question to ask is not what you can force out of isolated decontextualized verses but what do they mean in the context of the whole work. No, I don't read the Gospels and get the impression that God is going to cater to my whims or even physical well-being. I do get the impression that God will always be present, even in the worst of suffering.

That's pretty nice of him--to watch but not intervene. I mean I can get a bum on the street to watch me die. If God, who is all powerful and could cure me with a snap of His fingers, is just going to stand by and watch while I bleed out what good is He?
 

SeekingAllTruth

Well-Known Member
I know this from practice and just being around a heck of a lot of Christians. Prayer isn't a "gimmy."

Unless you believe prayer cures sickness I'm still at a lost at what you're trying to say.
It's clear that the Christians here are just excuse-making for Jesus and God. Fact is God doesn't intervene in man's affairs. He's AWOL. He's a deist God. That explains perfectly why we see no evidence of God moving in this world. I'd like one Christian to give us an example of a miraculous event that happened to them as a result of prayer that couldn't be explained by a natural result. I guarantee you nobody can do it. If it were true, such a miracle would be written up in every scientific journal on earth.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
He's AWOL. He's a deist God. That explains perfectly why we see no evidence of God moving in this world.
I stand on the border between deism and theism because I really do not know what God is doing or not doing, since there is no way to prove He is or isn't. One thing I feel fairly certain of is that God is not as depicted in the Bible.
 

SeekingAllTruth

Well-Known Member
My understanding is that most of our suffering is self inflicted. The rest, things such as sleeping, eating, drinking, illness and death have been enforced upon us as conditions for existence in this world to enable us to develop spiritually. For example, one cannot learn things like patience or tolerance from going to university or attaining a degree or reading a book. Only through being ‘tested’ or challenged can we develop spiritual qualities.

As the purpose of this life is not to stay here forever and is designed to enable us to evolve into mature spiritual beings, the world is constructed in a manner which enables us to learn spiritually from both our physical suffering as well as our own mistakes. For instance, when we create wars we suffer. When we pollute the environment nature retaliates. Cause and effect. Whatever we sow, we reap.

COVID 19 how did it start? Nobody knows but fingers point towards ourselves. Either through negligence, uncleanliness or mismanagement, it is not yet known. But we need to learn from it. We will be forced to examine its origin for our own survival and that will force nations against their will to work together as well as expose what is keeping us from coming together. To prevent this from happening again, nations will have to try and trust each other but if they can, it will bring a new era of stability in the world.

We must fix these problems ourselves. Nobody can do this but us. We need to learn why the virus happened and that means not playing politics but genuine statesmanship.

When we do something wrong we ask God to fix it for us. What if God’s answer to the prayer is that He wants us to learn from our mistakes - and that is His answer? But the prayer appears to have no answer.

However, in reality, God does not ignore us. He gave us science and medical science is creating a vaccine.

Because we live in a very materialistic age and mindset, the purpose of prayer, which was meant for the sole purpose of creating a loving bond between God and man, has been misused. The highest prayer is for the love of God, not hope for heaven or fear of hell or give me this or give me that. But although we are God’s servants, we have made Him our servant and likened prayer to rubbing the lamp where a genie will appear granting our wishes.

God gave us life but we are unappreciative and expect that He grant us too, our wishes for wealth and create world peace and rid the world of germs!

Yet has He not continually sent Divine Educators, Who were treated by us with the utmost contempt & cruelty, to guide us how to live healthy, balanced and happy lives? Did we listen or go our own way experimenting and developing dangerous weapons and germs? Buddha, Jesus, Muhammad and all the Great Teachers advised a simple lifestyle. But we ignored them and now live in cancer ridden, drug addicted, alcohol addicted, domestic abused, crime infested societies and more or less blame God why He hasn’t answered our prayers?

He sent us Christ we crucified Him, He sent us other Messengers Whom we stoned, imprisoned and exiled.

All the signs say to me that God is answering our prayers by telling us to learn from these mistakes, take responsibility for them and work together to fix them. That is the answer to the prayer in my humble opinion.

But those who still wait for a magic wand to be waved, or a genie to appear or Christ to come with angels on a cloud can wait like those who waited before them as ages & centuries passed by with nothing happening except that we had to suffer until we changed.


Lots of good stuff in here, humanity. let me get in as much as I can:

par. 1: Some things, humanity have nothing to do with learning from experience. For example hundreds of thousands of children are sold into slavery, mostly sexual. They are used until their masters get bored or tired of them. The children live horrible lives crying and screaming from repeated abuse day after day. Those who aren't murdered and discarded are damaged for life and turn to drugs and prostitution. Please explain to us how such ghastly circumstances give glory to God.

par 2: And where is God in all this? Perhaps He put us here and ditched us with the admonishment, "Learn how to find solutions for yourselves because you aren't going to get any help from me." At least that's what I see when I look around.

I can't do every paragraph I just realized, humanity. let me just say that you're right. Much of this we brought upon ourselves. But that has nothing to do with God and everything to do with the fact that life stinks. Period. That's all we can say.
 

SeekingAllTruth

Well-Known Member
I stand on the border between deism and theism because I really do not know what God is doing or not doing, since there is no way to prove He is or isn't. One thing I feel fairly certain of is that God is not as depicted in the Bible.

That's a winner, Trail. The ONLY thing that somewhat convinces me that there is a higher intelligence out there is the fact we are here at all. To survey the history of the world from the primordial soup to 8 billion sentient intelligent and sophisticated humans, not to mention the incredibly complex life that sprouted up--and the fact that every strand of DNA in our body is encoded with a set of instructions as thick as the Encyclopedia Britannica just boggles my mind. Given the odds of something like 10 to the 950th power it should not have happened and yet here were are. Yet seemingly we find ourselves alone. Scientists think that in this entire galaxy we are the only life form that has developed to such lengths. The very first humans should have been wiped out by animals or disease but they weren't. Incredible. That is the very definition of a deist God.
 
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