Why worship god?

[dfnj]

You have a need to worship?
Enjoy!
I'll remain puzzled.

You are puzzled because you have a concrete conviction we live in a materialistic clockwork Universe where only objective experiences are real. My experience with conversations around God fall into the realm of subjectivity. I totally get that you think your point-of-view is "better" than ones not based on objective evidence.

But when we are talking about God and why worship God it is purely in the realm of subjective judgments. How can I prove to you the value of worship if I can't prove to you God exists. In your world, everything in the Universe is just meaningless patterns of energy swirling around according to the laws of physics with no one pattern of energy being more meaningful than any other. In my world, there is a purpose to the Universe.

So what is the purpose. The Universe exists which is a violation of the law of conservation of energy. In spite of all the forces of chaos pulling pieces apart there is some kind of unifying principle creating a meaningful order to the Universe. We are made of the very thing we are experiencing. We are the Universe's way of experiencing itself. We are not mindless automatons but conscious beings being pulled by a higher power to experience a greater unity with ourselves and the Universe.

The Universe and evolution exist in order for consciousness to experience a deeper appreciation of our unity with God. You can't appreciate the experience of having unity with God's perfection unless you suffer from having all the imperfections of separation. We experience slivers of unity with God's perfection through our appreciation of great beauty and great performance. But in your view, we have no purpose other than to just die.

All this talk about God, why worship God, does the Universe have a purpose does not exist in the World like the way you and I experience an "apple". All this talk only occurs in the realm of subjective experience which you don't consider to be valid, real, or meaningful.

So there you have it. You are puzzled because you refuse to participate in certain assumptions some people consider to be true without any proof. Your way of thinking, your posts, everything you say, is so predictable and automaton like.

 

[blü 2]

You are puzzled because you have a concrete conviction we live in a materialistic clockwork Universe where only objective experiences are real.

No, I'm puzzled because (as I said) I think it's fine to thank someone who's helped you in some way; but I can't think of any reason why (a) a god would want to be worshiped ─ must be very insecure, no? or (b) why anyone would want to worship a god ─ out of fear? To buy favors?

I don't get it.

How can I prove to you the value of worship if I can't prove to you God exists.

I don't ask for proof, I'd simply like to understand what the point of worship is, for the worshiper and for the worshiped.

In your world, everything in the Universe is just meaningless patterns of energy swirling around according to the laws of physics with no one pattern of energy being more meaningful than any other.

If you mean, 'objectively meaningful', that's fair, because nothing has meaning on its own, only such meaning as a sentient onlooker may attribute to it. And that's true whether the onlooker is a theist or a non-believer, surely?

In spite of all the forces of chaos pulling pieces apart there is some kind of unifying principle creating a meaningful order to the Universe.

What 'meaningful order' is that? How do you know?

We are made of the very thing we are experiencing. We are the Universe's way of experiencing itself.

You think the universe is a sentient entity? Why do you think that?

We are not mindless automatons but conscious beings being pulled by a higher power to experience a greater unity with existence.

What do you mean, a higher power? Some further sentient entity? Why does it bother? What's it trying to do?

The Universe and evolution exist in order for consciousness to experience a deeper appreciation of our unity with God. But in your view, we have no purpose other than to just die.

No, evolution has shaped what we feel as purpose: only those species continue to exist whose members live long enough to breed successfully. Thus surviving and breeding are instincts deeply built into us, the reason we bond with our partners, feel deeply about our children and can be highly motivated regarding their welfare, and so on.

The universe, were it capable of looking on, would note humans as a complex set of biochemical, zoological and social phenomena, but having no more intrinsic value than anything else.

Meanwhile we think we're the most valuable things in the universe; and if you're us, that's right. If you're not, you just say, 'Yeah, they would say that, wouldn't they.'

But that doesn't answer my two questions, why people want to worship gods, and why gods want to be worshiped, so I'll be grateful for your clarification.

 

[GoodbyeDave]

Again, only a partial quote.

Of course — I quote the passage I'm replying to.

But why do many, many people go to church every (say) Sunday?

I hope they worship more than once a week!

But do you ever talk to your friends and neighbours? If so, why? A silly question, isn't it? Can really not see the connection?

 

[Altfish]

Of course — I quote the passage I'm replying to.

I hope they worship more than once a week!

But do you ever talk to your friends and neighbours? If so, why? A silly question, isn't it? Can really not see the connection?

But by partially quoting you are omitting my reasons for saying what I did.

 

[arthra]

Why worship God? Because Gods are the givers of life. Without Gods, nothing would exist. So we are grateful and we honor them with rituals. But most importantly, Gods show the way with dharma. so with gods, we live and if we follow dharma, we live well. Are there other reasons?

I think for Baha'is God is one and is the source of life through emanation. There are a minimum of "rituals" and no Altars in the Baha'i Faith... No Priests, Ministers or Monks.

Baha'is pray daily

Baha'is believe God has sent His Prophets and Messengers throughout human history as a continuing guidance and for the advancement of civilization.

 

[dfnj]

No, I'm puzzled because (as I said) I think it's fine to thank someone who's helped you in some way; but I can't think of any reason why (a) a god would want to be worshiped ─ must be very insecure, no? or (b) why anyone would want to worship a god ─ out of fear? To buy favors?
I don't get it.
But that doesn't answer my two questions, why people want to worship gods, and why gods want to be worshiped, so I'll be grateful for your clarification.

First, there is only one God and that God is God. The idea of God is God is perfect, complete, and has no needs including the need to be worship. Now if you believe in the need for salvation and that can only come through worshiping God then it is people who are the ones with the need to worship God in order to attain salvation.

God is not insecure. God is perfect and complete.

People worship God out of fear because they are afraid. I live in New Jersey. When you live in New Jersey there is only Heaven.

In terms of buying God's favor it is not clear how our way of thinking might affect the Universe. You are materialist and think everything that occurs in the brain is separate from reality. But there are many experiments that show the kind of materialism you believe in may not be all there is:

I think your way of thinking our mind is not part of reality may be wrong. The Universe is analog not digital. There could certainly be information that travels along the wave creating psyche powers. Then why can't information travel along the wave directly back to God. The thing is you have no idea whether or not we can "buy favors" from God. The Universe existing at all is a violation of the law of conservation of energy. Since miracles do happen why not 1 or 2 more?

Worshiping gods is much different than worshiping God. A pantheon of gods represents aspects of the human psyche. With a pantheon of gods each of us channels aspects of a gods powers and express those powers in our behaviors or attitudes. People worship or pay tribute to gods of a particular pantheon in order to be able to get the gods help in expressing a god's power in their life and way of being. The power of subjective suggestion to one's own psyche should not be underrated. The same is true with prayer and mantras.

Worshiping God on the other hand, at least for me, is and expression of being God-like. God did not create the Universe out of a specific need or because God is lacking something. God is perfect and complete as I've said. God created the Universe out of an overflowing abundance. For me to worship God means to share some type of abundance with other people who appreciate it so I can feel closer to my God and closer to my God's way of being.

Again, my problem with everything you post is it is very predictable. Although, I have to be honest I did not expect you to say you would be grateful for my clarification. Are you truly grateful or was that a figure of speech? I am grateful you did not do any ad hominem attacks because I am not an atheist.

 

[blü 2]

Now if you believe in the need for salvation and that can only come through worshiping God then it is people who are the ones with the need to worship God in order to attain salvation.

So, done out of fear?

Salvation from what, by the way?

God is not insecure. God is perfect and complete.

Then why do you have to ask God for salvation? God would already know what everyone needs, no? Air, water, food, the immune system, are laid on, why not salvation? A perfect human would do that, why not a perfect god?

In terms of buying God's favor it is not clear how our way of thinking might affect the Universe. You are materialist and think everything that occurs in the brain is separate from reality.

Hardly. We animals have brains so we can act in and react to our environment, the real world. Our senses integrate us with the aspects of reality most relevant to survival and breeding. Yes, our view is subjective, the brain looking out through the senses, but the brain itself functions as part of the physical universe, and with the right equipment you can watch your own brain in action in real time.

The Universe is analog not digital.

At a practical level it's a mix of both ─ sometimes you need Newton/Einstein, and sometimes you need Heisenberg.

There could certainly be information that travels along the wave creating psyche powers.

What wave is that? What 'psych powers' are you referring to?

The power of subjective suggestion to one's own psyche should not be underrated. The same is true with prayer and mantras.

I have a Buddhist friend who, he tells me, enhances his sense of wellbeing with meditation. But I know from experience that meditation doesn't do much for me.

Worshiping God on the other hand, at least for me, is and expression of being God-like. [...] God created the Universe out of an overflowing abundance. For me to worship God means to share some type of abundance with other people who appreciate it so I can feel closer to my God and closer to my God's way of being.

Ah, if you accept the premises, that would make sense.

Does it have any practical applications, or is it effectively concerned only with one's emotional state?

 

[InChrist]

Can I ask a question?

If you were a god, why would you want or even expect 'worship'? I mean, an occasional, "Thanks" would be ok, but constant worship. urgh!
If I were god, I'd be embarrassed and tell people to ease off a bit.
Isn't it all a bit narcissistic?

I used to think exactly that way. I remember before I knew Christ, I'd think, even if Jesus came to earth and lived like the Bible says, went to the cross, was resurrected, and is God why would He ever want or need people to worship Him? I thought it was ridiculous. That all changed though when I I came to know Him as my Savior in a very personal way and understood the meaning of worship in the biblical sense. It's not ritualistic bowing down, bringing offerings, just singing songs or whatever. I realized that worship is LOVE and that's what God created humans for... a loving relationship with Him for all eternity. So now it makes sense to me and I have an entirely different understanding of worship than what I once had.
I've known narcissists before and they don't care anything about love or anyone but themselves. On the other hand, I see God as totally, sacrificially, abundantly about caring for those He created to exist in His love.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Why worship God? Because Gods are the givers of life. Without Gods, nothing would exist. So we are grateful and we honor them with rituals. But most importantly, Gods show the way with dharma. so with gods, we live and if we follow dharma, we live well.
Are there other reasons?

God by his very nature is worthy of worship.

Have you ever stood at the shore of the ocean and felt small as you saw it stretching past the horizon? Ever looked up from the floor of the forest to the top of a giant redwood and understood why someone might consider it to be a god? If you feel this way about the awesomeness of nature, how much more would you feel this way about the Author of Creation?


ברוך אתה ה' א‑לוהינו, מלך העולם, שהחינו וקימנו והגענו לזמן הזה.

Transliteration: Barukh ata Adonai Eloheinu, melekh ha'olam, she'heheyanu v'kiy'manu v'higi'anu la'z'man ha'ze.

Translation: "Blessed are You, LORD our God, King of the universe, Who has kept us alive, sustained us, and enabled us to reach this season."

 

[dfnj]

So, done out of fear?
Salvation from what, by the way?

Not my belief. Nobody can give you what you already have. People only take away from you what you let them with regards to matters of enthusiasm.

 

[dfnj]

I used to think exactly that way. I remember before I knew Christ, I'd think. even if Jesus came to earth and lived like the Bible says, went to the cross, was resurrected, and is God why would He ever want or need people to worship Him? I thought it was ridiculous. That all changed though when I I came to know Him as my Savior in a very personal way and understood the meaning of worship in the biblical sense. It's not ritualistic bowing down, bringing offering, just singing songs or whatever. I realized that worship is LOVE and that's what God created humans for... a loving relationship with Him for all eternity. So now it makes sense to me and I have an entirely different understanding of worship than what I once had.
I've known narcissists before and they don't care anything about love or anyone but themselves. On the other hand, I see God as totally, sacrificially, abundantly about caring for those He created to exist in His love.

I don't think worship is love. I think love is love. I see God as indifferent. If we crap in our own bed God just waits for us to clean it up. Based on countless human experiments there is no amount of evil God will not tolerate in order to preserve our free-will. God created us and the Universe with profound imperfections which is why evil exists in the World. Having a loving relationship to God does nothing in stopping the evil that is occurring between people.

Sometimes I think people idolize the word "Jesus" and the words in the Bible so much they really have no religion at all. They are really fans of religion. Idol worshipers. The only path to salvation is by getting forgiveness from the people you have sinned against. Just saying or believing magic words means nothing. Instead of being fan you have to be on the field playing for real. And playing for real means you have to have faith and trust in people. Having faith in an omnipotent God is easy because how can you be disappointed? Having faith in the people around you, now that takes having serious faith because you might get heart broken or worse.

There has only ever been one true Christian in the World and he died on the cross. Too many people are pretending to have religion. Too many posers just looking pretty.

 

[dfnj]

I think for Baha'is God is one and is the source of life through emanation. There are a minimum of "rituals" and no Altars in the Baha'i Faith... No Priests, Ministers or Monks.
Baha'is pray daily
Baha'is believe God has sent His Prophets and Messengers throughout human history as a continuing guidance and for the advancement of civilization.

Is Baha really a religion or just in history lesson in Bahanist. I don't see anything in your post having to do with religious thought. Do you even have religious thought or do you mindless quote from the Baha Bible like some Google search. Every time I see you guys quote something it all seems like empty words to me. If there is ever any meaning to what you are saying please let me know. Thanks.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I used to think exactly that way. I remember before I knew Christ, I'd think. even if Jesus came to earth and lived like the Bible says, went to the cross, was resurrected, and is God why would He ever want or need people to worship Him? I thought it was ridiculous. That all changed though when I I came to know Him as my Savior in a very personal way and understood the meaning of worship in the biblical sense. It's not ritualistic bowing down, bringing offering, just singing songs or whatever. I realized that worship is LOVE and that's what God created humans for... a loving relationship with Him for all eternity. So now it makes sense to me and I have an entirely different understanding of worship than what I once had.
I've known narcissists before and they don't care anything about love or anyone but themselves. On the other hand, I see God as totally, sacrificially, abundantly about caring for those He created to exist in His love.

And yet God in the Torah (the first five books of your Bible) DID command the bringing of ritualistic sacrifices and offerings. What do you do with that?

 

[InChrist]

I don't think worship is love. I think love is love. I see God as indifferent. If we crap in our own bed God just waits for us to clean it up. Based on countless human experiments there is no amount of evil God will not tolerate in order to preserve our free-will. God created us and the Universe with profound imperfections which is why evil exists in the World. Having a loving relationship to God does nothing in stopping the evil that is occurring between people.

Sometimes I think people idolize the word "Jesus" and the words in the Bible so much they really have no religion at all. They are really fans of religion. Idol worshipers. The only path to salvation is by getting forgiveness from the people you have sinned against. Just saying or believing magic words means nothing. Instead of being fan you have to be on the field playing for real. And playing for real means you have to have faith and trust in people. Having faith in an omnipotent God is easy because how can you be disappointed? Having faith in the people around you, now that takes having serious faith because you might get heart broken or worse.

There has only ever been one true Christian in the World and he died on the cross. Too many people are pretending to have religion. Too many posers just looking pretty.

How did you reach your perspectives and/or conclusions about God, love etc. ? Just interested.

What about Stephen mentioned in the Bible or the other apostles who were all martyred for Christ, or individuals like Amy Carmichael or George Mueller and so many others who have faithfully lived daily demonstrating the love of God to others?

 

[InChrist]

And yet God in the Torah (the first five books of your Bible) DID command the bringing of ritualistic sacrifices and offerings. What do you do with that?

I believe at that time in history that is how God was working and that is what He commanded those of the nation of Israel to do as foreshadows which pointed to the ultimate sacrifice, the Lamb of God, Jesus Christ.

 

[arthra]

Is Baha really a religion or just in history lesson in Bahanist. I don't see anything in your post having to do with religious thought. Do you even have religious thought or do you mindless quote from the Baha Bible like some Google search. Every time I see you guys quote something it all seems like empty words to me. If there is ever any meaning to what you are saying please let me know. Thanks.

Thanks for your post "dfnj"! and may I just say you're definitely entitled to your views. We often quote Baha'i Writings because for us they are "revealed" Writings and not just some "Google search" and I'm sorry if they appear to you to be "empty words". I would also suggest there is "meaning" in what I'm saying or rather typing and I let you know...

My post above was in my own words except for a short prayer many Baha'is recite … My words again:

"I think for Baha'is God is one and is the source of life through emanation. There are a minimum of "rituals" and no Altars in the Baha'i Faith... No Priests, Ministers or Monks.

Baha'is pray daily (Here I quoted the short obligatory prayer)

My last words:

"Baha'is believe God has sent His Prophets and Messengers throughout human history as a continuing guidance and for the advancement of civilization. "

The topic "Why worship God?" on the Comparative Religion forum.

 

[dfnj]

Thanks for your post "dfnj"! and may I just say you're definitely entitled to your views. We often quote Baha'i Writings because for us they are "revealed" Writings and not just some "Google search" and I'm sorry if they appear to you to be "empty words". I would also suggest there is "meaning" in what I'm saying or rather typing and I let you know...

My post above was in my own words except for a short prayer many Baha'is recite … My words again:

"I think for Baha'is God is one and is the source of life through emanation. There are a minimum of "rituals" and no Altars in the Baha'i Faith... No Priests, Ministers or Monks.

Baha'is pray daily (Here I quoted the short obligatory prayer)

My last words:

"Baha'is believe God has sent His Prophets and Messengers throughout human history as a continuing guidance and for the advancement of civilization. "

The topic "Why worship God?" on the Comparative Religion forum.

Saying Baha is the source is not an expression of your thoughts on religion. It's more like idol worship. You are talking about religion. You are not talking religion. You are not expressing your views on spirituality.

It's alright. There's nothing you Baha's have ever posted that gets me the slightest bit interested in Bahaism. All you blokes do is exult your Baha in every post. I'll just take your word for it on how great being a Baha is for you.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

In plain English, would you define "dharma" for me please?

The underlying law of reality, basically. It's similar to the Egyptian concept of Ma'at.

 

[dfnj]

The underlying law of reality, basically. It's similar to the Egyptian concept of Ma'at.

I'm big believer in the mystery of reality and existence. Whenever I see people use anthropomorphic terms like "laws" I think it is loaded with presuppositions and assumptions. There may be some kind of organizing principles to the way nature behaves but using the word law implies lawyers, courts, and enforcement.

I think this banned Ted talk is a good representation of the idea of how we have to avoid every type of prejudice in order to see or hear what reality is dictating to us about its nature:

 

[whirlingmerc]

You are puzzled because you have a concrete conviction we live in a materialistic clockwork Universe where only objective experiences are real. My experience with conversations around God fall into the realm of subjectivity. I totally get that you think your point-of-view is "better" than ones not based on objective evidence.

But when we are talking about God and why worship God it is purely in the realm of subjective judgments. How can I prove to you the value of worship if I can't prove to you God exists. In your world, everything in the Universe is just meaningless patterns of energy swirling around according to the laws of physics with no one pattern of energy being more meaningful than any other. In my world, there is a purpose to the Universe.

So what is the purpose. The Universe exists which is a violation of the law of conservation of energy. In spite of all the forces of chaos pulling pieces apart there is some kind of unifying principle creating a meaningful order to the Universe. We are made of the very thing we are experiencing. We are the Universe's way of experiencing itself. We are not mindless automatons but conscious beings being pulled by a higher power to experience a greater unity with ourselves and the Universe.

The Universe and evolution exist in order for consciousness to experience a deeper appreciation of our unity with God. You can't appreciate the experience of having unity with God's perfection unless you suffer from having all the imperfections of separation. We experience slivers of unity with God's perfection through our appreciation of great beauty and great performance. But in your view, we have no purpose other than to just die.

All this talk about God, why worship God, does the Universe have a purpose does not exist in the World like the way you and I experience an "apple". All this talk only occurs in the realm of subjective experience which you don't consider to be valid, real, or meaningful.

So there you have it. You are puzzled because you refuse to participate in certain assumptions some people consider to be true without any proof. Your way of thinking, your posts, everything you say, is so predictable and automaton like.

"I am most satisfied when God is most glorified" John Piper