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Featured Why Was Jesus Necessary?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Skwim, Sep 7, 2018.

  1. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Whoa! You're quick. ;)


    Okay, you still don't understand my question, and after 250+ posts I'm not about to go over old territory and reexplain it.

    Have a good day.

    .
     
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  2. Bob the Unbeliever

    Bob the Unbeliever Well-Known Member

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    How about addressing my criticism of your bible/god/theology? With an actual counter-argument that is NOT a personal attack?

    No?

    Yeah...
     
  3. Bob the Unbeliever

    Bob the Unbeliever Well-Known Member

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    Yet you felt needful to try to denigrate me, personally, yet again...

    ... all while 100% ignoring my critical analysis of your "arguments"....

    LOL!

    What's funny? You think I write for YOUR benefit.... ! I know your brain is hardened with concrete already; a hopeless case.

    But. I can critically point out the failures in your "arguments" for others, more rational folk to read.
     
  4. 1robin

    1robin Christian/Baptist

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    Alright I got caught up within every else who responded to me yesterday so now I will start on your posts but last warning anymore accusations of lying and we are done (probably permanently). Call me wrong on incorrect all you want but I draw the line with the accusation of being a liar (which you couldn't possibly know even if true because you have no access to my motivations).

    Ok, so lets see what you got here. So far nothing you said requires or merits a response.

    What the heck was that supposed to mean? Good Lord I didn't think it could get any worse.

    That hack was asked (not you or any of your atheist ilk) to speak over the BBC during Britain's lowest point during the Blitz which you probably don't even know about. Churchill selected him because there is nothing in atheism to give anyone hope about anything, atheism is a net loss in every category. Regardless C.S. Lewis went on to deliver one of the most popular and beloved speeches ever delivered. So good it was transcribed into the famous book Mere Christianity (One of the best selling books ever written). Your or any atheist ever done anything within a light year of what he did?
     
  5. 1robin

    1robin Christian/Baptist

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    What?

    The world of the FSM is full of just as much death, suffering, and misery as would exist under any divine being. FSM just does not have an explanation for nor answer to any of them.

    Can you not even fume and seethe at a different pitch. This is word for word the same complaint you have made at least twice. It isn't an argument to begin with and requires no response.

    No your not a bitter hater of the Christian faith at all. It's appalling I was once like you but as bad as I was I think you are even worse. How sick is it that a person finds a world that is just as sick as everyone else does but wants to get rid of the only possible cure? If things don't go your way on judgment day I don't think there will be any question as to why. Watching (hearing) someone as miserable as you are talk requires a grace that only my faith explains.
     
  6. 1robin

    1robin Christian/Baptist

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    Surrender of reason huh. That must be why almost 80% of Nobel Laureates are Christians and many of the rest are observant Jews.

    I guess all these men were actually blithering idiots instead of leading in technical fields.
    List of Christians in science and technology - Wikipedia
    100 Scientists Who Shaped World History

    I guess that also explain why the modern scientific (abstract) revolution occurred almost exclusively in the Christian west.

    Posting reasons you are wrong is exhausting but they are at least easy to find.

    Nothing in this or most of your posts are actually arguments. They are just declarations and complaints in various forms. They require no reply. The only reason I am doing so is to fill up some down time at work.
     
  7. 1robin

    1robin Christian/Baptist

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    Ok, you did it all yourself, I literally couldn't stop you. I warned you 2 to 3 times about accusations of lying and it didn't even phase you. You really have a nasty disposition. I am going to put you on my permanent ignore list. Your so bitter it actually brings me down just talking to you.
     
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  8. Bob the Unbeliever

    Bob the Unbeliever Well-Known Member

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    I see humor is 100% lose on you sort. Typical. Sarcasm is beyond your grasp, it appears...
    I'm aware of how many people are bamboozled by the hack, Lewis. I've read the majority of his crap, to my lasting shame-- such a waste of oxygen it was, too.

    What's worse? I read Lewis' drek while I was still a Genuine Christian™. And even then, I saw through his stuff for what it was:

    A desperate attempt to APOLOGIZE for the very ugly that is the bible.

    Question: Why does the bible require APOLOGIZERS like Lewis?

    Oh... right... that whole rape-marriages, sex-slaves, pro-slavery, punishing the DESCENDANTS for the "crimes" of the ANCESTORS.

    Evil, in other words.
     
  9. Bob the Unbeliever

    Bob the Unbeliever Well-Known Member

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    Argument From Popularity Logical Fallacy.

    Fail.

    It does prove that people can compartmentalize all SORTS of crap...
     
  10. Bob the Unbeliever

    Bob the Unbeliever Well-Known Member

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    Witness the LOVE by a Genuine Christian™. Let us bask in all it's lovely, hypocritical glory.

    And let us celebrate the upcoming Blessed Silence. :)
     
  11. 1robin

    1robin Christian/Baptist

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    That would only be true if there was not even a possibility of an after life. Its scope in relation to the speck of time we spend in this life means that as long as it is possible we live on eternally that remains our highest priority. If you don't believe in a judgment mandated afterlife then why try and be good, we should instead try and get away with every self serving act we can because it ends the same for Hitler and Mother Theresa. If however you believe in judgment after this life and that your actions echoes down through and determine your eternity then my action in this life take on a whole new importance. By the way true Judaism placed a huge amount of value on the after life.

    Don't worry about my thinking you are undermining my faith. My faith is as rich as it is because it has survived being constantly challenged. If my faith couldn't survive being challenged it isn't worth very much.

    I don't believe anyone goes to Hell unless they choose to go there. Hell is the result of a lifetime of rejecting God. It is not something chosen for us by another. This side of the dirt we still have a chance to gain eternal contentment with God.

    I kind of agree but even people well outside the Hebrew culture found God. Look at the women at the well for example. I believe that Judaism was primarily for the Jews but that Christianity took what was once for the Jews and made it available to every gentile on earth. I also regard any God faulty who would only make religions that are available for only one culture. The ultimate God in my mind is one who can make a revelation that could be understood and could apply to all peoples on earth. That is why I think Christianity is from the ultimate deity.

    That is what Peter thought to until God specifically told he was wrong and he should be ministering to the gentiles as well. The only way a good God could have made a religion for just the Jews if it was only for a certain time after which he made salvation available to all even retroactively. Any other concept of God ministering to just one culture is immoral.

    No it makes perfect sense. In fact it is one of the most elegant solutions to the problem of sin I can even think of. What you meant to say is you just don't buy it. I can't really debate against a blanket claim as to what the OT looks like to Christians. Your going to have to produce a specific claim and see whether your or my interpretation of that text makes more sense.

    This is like my trying to debate with your response of "nu-uh". You didn't give me any reason to believe your right or that I am wrong so not debate can be had. Your going to have to cite specific examples, your claims, then reasons to think your right before a productive discussion can occur.

    I have to be God to claim the Jews have been stubborn? No I don't, their own scriptures show it over and over and over. I think their stubbornness (even self admitted) is the primary theme of the OT. If you want scriptures I have a machine gun full of them just waiting on you to ask.

    Then the tons of bulls blood was needlessly expended and the high priest was a waste of time. In reality the blood of animals was symbolic of the blood shed by the real savior Jesus Christ and the high priest was a place holder for the real priest (Jesus yet again) that was to come. Yes a broken spirit was necessary but that alone does not satisfy God's wrath. His perfect justice means every sin must be punished. Christ suffered that wrath of God so that we don't have to. If you do not accept his sacrifice all the contriteness a heart can have can't erase the debt of sin. That's why the high priest couldn't eliminate anyone sin debt but could only push them forward year by year until the true high priest arrived that actually could forgive sin.

    We keep talking about very deep subjects. If you want this debate to produce any results we are going to have to choose fewer subjects and discuss them more deeply. Drive by commenting just isn't convincing anyone.

    This is a declaration not an argument. I am not sure what I am supposed to do in response.

    Not at all. Melchizedek (note the spelling) was an OT priest. He only has one obscure reference in the OT connected with Abraham but is noteworthy because the bible says "he had no beginning or end" (whatever that means). The book of Hebrews says that Christ was the true priest and of the order of Melchizedek (again meaning no beginning or end). Sounds like you need to take a look at the NT again.

    Yes, I mean it has come to pass. Abraham was promised his would have many descendants and that his revelation would come through them (meaning the Hebrews). Yes I believe that is over having been fulfilled.

    6Now, however, Jesus has received a much more excellent ministry, just as the covenant He mediates is better and is founded on better promises. 7For if that first covenant had been without fault, no place would have been sought for a second. 8But God found fault with the people and said: “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.…

    These are the words of Paul who knew more about the first covenant (law) than just about any human on earth at the time. Jesus also made similar claims and God stamped his approval on his claims by resurrecting him from the dead. You won't find that happening to an OT prophet.

    I will deal with your last question in a separate post
     
  12. 1robin

    1robin Christian/Baptist

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    @IndigoChild5559

    I didn't have much time to spend your last question but here are some examples.

    I didn't say most but first lets start from where this claim comes from.

    New International Version
    "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.
    New International Version
    "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

    Those are two different observant Jews independently making the same claim.

    I don't have time spend so I will just give you a couple of examples.

    for when Jezebel destroyed the prophets of the LORD, Obadiah took a hundred prophets and hid them by fifties in a cave, and provided them with bread and water.)

    He said, "I have been very zealous for the LORD, the God of hosts; for the sons of Israel have forsaken Your covenant, torn down Your altars and killed Your prophets with the sword And I alone am left; and they seek my life, to take it away."


    "But they became disobedient and rebelled against You, And cast Your law behind their backs And killed Your prophets who had admonished them So that they might return to You, And they committed great blasphemies.


    "Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE."



    Then he said, "May God do so to me and more also, if the head of Elisha the son of Shaphat remains on him today."



    Now Elisha was sitting in his house, and the elders were sitting with him And the king sent a man from his presence; but before the messenger came to him, he said to the elders, "Do you see how this son of a murderer has sent to take away my head? Look, when the messenger comes, shut the door and hold the door shut against him. Is not the sound of his master's feet behind him?"




    Then the officials said to the king, "Now let this man be put to death, inasmuch as he is discouraging the men of war who are left in this city and all the people, by speaking such words to them; for this man is not seeking the well-being of this people but rather their harm."




    Therefore thus says the LORD concerning the men of Anathoth, who seek your life, saying, "Do not prophesy in the name of the LORD, so that you will not die at our hand";




    so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.


    "In vain I have struck your sons; They accepted no chastening Your sword has devoured your prophets Like a destroying lion.




    "The vine-growers took his slaves and beat one, and killed another, and stoned a third.



    and say, 'If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.'


    "So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets.
     
  13. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    After yours, I gave my answers to yours down below yours.

    Here's what you said in your first post
    SkwimVeteran Member.
    In the new testament we have a god who wanted to forgive all mankind of its sins. Fine, but then why didn't he just forgive them? Why was it necessary to have a human sacrifice? To have his son tortured and executed In order for the sins of all mankind to be absolved?

    Some say god wanted each individual to prove themselves worthy of such forgiveness. Okay, then why didn't he make the playing field level, where each and every person on earth had an equal chance? Why were only some apprised of god's requirement?---many, many never having got or getting the message. And not everyone is mentally capable of grasping the truth of god's test, yet they, along with the ignorant, have been left out of god's forgiveness. Others, such as myself, god has simply failed to convince; and whose fault is that; a puny mortal mind besting the best efforts of god? AND, as an omniscient being, god would be well aware of all these imminent failures. He knew that persons X, Y, and Z would never be on the receiving end of his forgiveness, but instead end up in hell or wherever. So, why even allow such poor unfortunate souls be born? Truthfully, as the story is laid out, god comes off as quite the heartless monster

    So, nope, the notion of proving oneself worthy just doesn't wash, at least not under the auspices of an all-loving and benevolent god, which puts us right back at square one. Why did god even bother with Jesus?


    Ideas?



    here's what you said > ( Some say god wanted each individual to prove themselves worthy of such forgiveness. Okay, then why didn't he make the playing field level, where each and every person on earth had an equal chance?

    (God did make the playing field level, had you paid any attention.
    Jesus did say, " For God so loved the world"
    This means, anyone and everyone, so the playing field is level for anyone and everyone to have an equal chance.
    Then Jesus said " that he ( God) gave his only begotten Son, that Whosoever"

    This to means -- anyone and everyone, so the playing is level, For anyone and everyone to have an equal chance, That Whosoever
    ( anyone and everyone) that believe's in him
    ( Christ Jesus) has an equal chance.

    Here's what you also said --->many, many never having got or getting the message. And not everyone is mentally capable of grasping the truth of god's test, yet they, along with the ignorant, have been left out of god's forgiveness.)
    Not at all, has anyone been left out of God's forgiveness. Remember Jesus did say--
    ( Whosoever ( anyone and everyone) that believe's in him) so no one is left out of God's forgiveness.
    It's People who make's their own choices in life.
    Had you studied the book of Revelation, when Christ Jesus return's, and during the thousand years of Christ Jesus rign, everyone will be taught the truth, during that thousand years. So no one on the whole earth will have an excuse of not knowing the truth.
    How does a person show themselves approved unto God's test?
    The sure best way is studying God's word.
    As it is written -- "Study to show yourself approved unto God, a workman that need's not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" 2 Timothy 2:15.
    What does it mean ( rightly dividing the word of truth ?)
    What this means is, for say you know the truth, and someone comes speaking to you, now you rightly divided the truth from the error of what their saying.
    This is all part of having what Jesus said, of having the key of David.
    Revelation 3:7, once a person knows and understand's what the key of David is, no one will be able to convince you otherwise of anything.
    All because as Jesus said --"he that has the key of David, he that opens, and no man shuts, and shuts no man can open"
    This means once you have and understand the key of David, no one can convince you otherwise of the truth you have.
    Here's what you said ---> ( AND, as an omniscient being, god would be well aware of all these imminent failures)
    My question here of what you said, can you give the book and chapter and verses as to where it is written in the bible, where it is written that God is
    Omniscient being.
    You will not even find the word
    ( Omniscient) in all of the bible, let alone finding any where that God is all knowing as man's teachings will say.
    So sure a person can take Verses in the bible and twist them into saying God is all knowing,
    And there are Christian's that have been taught to do this very thing, in twisting God's word, into what they want it to say.
    But we're not looking for that, but to have the Verses actually saying ( God is all knowing)
    So where is that written at ?
    Here's what you said ---> ( He knew that persons X, Y, and Z would never be on the receiving end of his forgiveness, but instead end up in hell or wherever)
    Jesus did say ( Whosoever) so anyone and everyone will have God's forgiveness.
    And as far as anyone end up in hell, they made their choices, God didn't hide anything from anyone. So its all laid out in the bible.
    Just because people are to lazy to pick up and study for themselves. Is no one's fault but their own fault.
    Why is it that people wants to blame God for their laziness.
    Use a little initiative and search it out.
    As it is written -- study to show yourself approved unto God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed.
    What this means is, a workman that study's God's word, needs not to be ashamed of their studying of God's word. It's not unto man that you show yourself approved, But it's unto God that you show yourself approved.
     
    #273 Faithofchristian, Sep 18, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2018
  14. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    I'm fine with that. I'll let you decide which subjects. I'll simply respond to whatever you post.

    I thought when you started talking about destiny that you didn't believe in free will. My misunderstanding.

    I think you misunderstand how it is supposed to work. We are a priestly nation, so we have obligations which set us apart, just like our priests have obligations which set them apart from regular Jews. It doesn't mean that God has abandoned the Nations. Part of God's covenant with Abraham is that his seed (meaning all his descendants through Isaac) are to be a blessing to all the world. We can interpret this to mean that we are to inspire the world to ethical monotheism, and that we are to repair the world through advances in medicine, technology, and making society just and fair (I'm piecing that together from different speakers I've heard).

    You might want to rethink that. At Sinai, the Lord said over and over, "Speak to the Children of Israel." Not to the world. To one specific people. It was to this people that he gave the 613 laws, the Tabernacle and sacrificial worship system and Holy Days... In effect, you may not like it, but if you read your own Bible, you will find that God gave Judaism to Israel.

    That doesn't mean we didn't spread understanding of ethical monotheism and what we knew of God. Many Gentiles of the surrounding countries became Righteous Gentiles, also sometimes called God-fearers or Noahides who worshipped the God of Abraham and lived decently but did not keep the 613. In the Christian scriptures, Cornelius is a God-fearer.

    Proving a negative is in many cases absurd and even impossible. It doesn't require evidence -- it requires lack of evidence to the contrary. So basically it is on you to prove you point, and then I would rebut your proofs. I will give you an example of a Christian claim:

    So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt, where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: "Out of Egypt I called my son." Matthew 2:14-15

    Let's go to the actual verse where the prophet says this:

    "When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son." Hosea 11:1

    Clearly the prophet is talking about Israel, not the messiah -- the verse is making a reference to the Exodus.

    In the sacred texts it is God talking. Like I said, it's fine if Hashem wants to say it. But not you.

    The primary theme of the Tanakh is to "fear God and keep his commandments."


    It is psychologically helpful to us. Why would that be a waste of time? God knew what he was doing when he commanded it.


    Genesis doesn't record Melchizedek's birth or death. Hebrews makes a big to-do about this, as if it means that Melchizedek has always existed and will always exist (IOW he was Jesus). You have to admit, it's a pretty unwarranted conclusion.

    Abraham was promised more than just many descendants. For example, he and his descendants through Isaac were promised the land from the Nile to the Euphrates. Has that come to pass? He was promised that his descendants through Isaac would be a blessing to the Nations. Are you saying that this promise is broken today and in the future?

    BTW I am really enjoying our conversation.

    Shalom
     
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  15. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    I would agree that some prophets were killed by Jezebel. It's when Christians begin to assert that this was par for the course that I take issue. Absolutely none of the prophets who wrote any of the sacred texts were killed by us.
     
  16. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    But what good are words when you don't let everyone in on the game? If the playing field was level (everybody knew of the Jesus-Get-Out-Of-Hell card) missionaries would never have been needed.

    Nope, your excuse here just doesn't fly.

    ,
     
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  17. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    No matter how you want to cut it,
    Whosoever, includes, Anyone and Everyone.
    Therefore, Whosoever ( Anyone and Everyone) believes in Christ Jesus, should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    Therefore, Anyone and Everyone, is on the same playing field.

    You probably won't accept this, all because it won't fit into your narrative.
     
  18. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    When your "Anyone and Everyone" doesn't really include anyone and everyone then it's meaningless apologetics that doesn't explain a thing. You may as well have saved yourself the effort of replying.

    .
     
  19. Bob the Unbeliever

    Bob the Unbeliever Well-Known Member

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    So you say. You got ANY proof? Any at all? Note: your bible isn't proof-- it's your claim.

    So YOU say. Who died and appointed YOU the Master And Ultimate Authority?

    You keep forgetting one thing kind of important: Jesus was first and foremost? A JEW.

    He spoke TO the Jews and only to the Jews.

    ooops!

    Not at all. We don't accept it, because you lack..... evidence.

    That's kind of how it works: You are not Good Enough to be God's Spokes-person.

    A real god would not stoop so ... mundane.

    I expect a God to act Godly.
     
  20. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Well-Known Member
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    Why God gave the Manifestation of Jesus the Christ is obvious as the noon day sun.

    The better question is why has God allowed people to ask such questions?

    How does free will blind us to our Spiritual reality?

    Peace be with one and all. Regards Tony
     
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