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Why Was Jesus Necessary?

1robin

Christian/Baptist
As Jesus that was his mission wasn't it: to supposedly suffer and die to give meat to his story, and to save those fortunate few who believed the story? And you feel we should feel sorry for him because he completed his mission? Save me your tears. God never died nor would he let himself suffer. Why would he?
I said nothing that was even a hint at feeling sorry for anyone. The bible says that Jesus sat down at God's right hand to receive the glory that his actions merited for eternity. Feeling sorry for anyone just wasn't part of the plan, why don't you know this stuff. If I was closing the door on the only game in town that offered eternal hope I would hope I would know the subject better. Fell sorry for Jesus? Where do you get this stuff?

God was outright and unnecessarily vicious to the helpless, and you know it. You've read all the OT examples, or at least had them brought to your attention. That god created his Jesus Scenario doesn't alter the fact that he was a savage, uncaring barbarian to the undeserving. You can read all about it. It's in your Bible.

.
God did not sit aloof and indifferent to the toil and suffering we all must face he entered into the very pitiless indifference taking on so many of us and conquered through it. You need some poetry in your soul. Shakespeare on his best day could shine a candle on the bible. BTW if you actually know anything about the crucifixion all the violence was done by men to other men, it was Jesus (God) who was instead praying for the souls of the ones crucifying him. You need to go back and review the stories you criticize a little better.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
I think you need to be more open to the fact that not everyone considers the afterlife to be the most important thing.
But if the after life is even possible then it is by far more deserving of our attention than this trivial spec of time. Your closing the door on even the possible yet accusing me of being closed minded. I don't get it.

Judaism is not a religion of correct belief (orthodoxy). It is a religion of correct action (orthopraxy). It can be summed up in Ecclesiastes 12:13 "When all is said and done one thing remains: fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole of man." Nothing there about belief or faith or the afterlife.
Good luck trying to earn your way to heaven, and if heaven isn't the proper focus of our attention the worse. I would hate to think I threw away a chance at a perfect eternity fighting over the poor scraps of this life. If your world view doesn't hold an eternal afterlife as its proper focus then Billy Graham and Hitler end up the same anyway so who cares?
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
See? Here's the thing: Your base for comparison is fatally flawed in the first place!
Then it ought to be easy for you to show me the error of my so obvious ways.

You begin with a very hateful concept: That all people are worth less than pond scum.
Good Lord you couldn't make it one sentence. In my world view humans are so valuable that God willingly suffered and died to save them himself. You can't place a higher value on life than my religion does, not even in theory.

And therefore, are somehow DESERVING of infinite torture at the hand of your ugly hate-god.
Wrong again, God does have to force anyone to go to Hell (the absence of God and Godly things) since this is exactly what they spent their entire lives wishing for. They didn't want a God, in the end that is exactly what they get.

Under the 100% superior Flying Spaghetti Monster? THERE IS NO SUCH BASE CLAIM.

The fact that a PARODY religion is SUPERIOR TO YOURS AT THE MOST FUNDAMENTAL LEVEL?

Shows just how evil your is...
Sorry but I don't have the time to take the rest of this seriously at the moment.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Even I can see the Christian answer coming. Sir, you have left yourself wide open.

However, even in Judaism, it is clear that Hashem loves us. There are a gazillion verses about how God wants us to turn back to him, that he will forgive us, and cast our sins into the sea.
A really good example of that kind of scripture that we both share faith in would be.

New International Version
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

If he wished to draw near to even those killing his own prophets how much more love must the father have for the average of sinners.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
Then it ought to be easy for you to show me the error of my so obvious ways..

And I did: A parody religion makes MORE SENSE that your brutal, death-loving cult.

I suppose this is because the parody was written in modern times, whereas yours was written back when nobody understood where the sun goes at night.

So it's understandable your religion is brutal, nasty and short: just like life was back then.

Good Lord you couldn't make it one sentence. In my world view humans are so valuable that God willingly suffered and died to save them himself. You can't place a higher value on life than my religion does, not even in theory..

LMAO! So valuable that if they didn't shower your god with adoration, he would torture them for all eternity.

So valuable your god thought nothing of drowning the earth because the children were disobedient.

That's "value" all right: Pond Scum has more worthiness.

Wrong again, God does have to force anyone to go to Hell (the absence of God and Godly things) since this is exactly what they spent their entire lives wishing for. They didn't want a God, in the end that is exactly what they get..

Here? You have 100% departed from what your bible said. But that's hardly surprising.

You rarely back up your statements with what is printed in the bible.

Even your Jesus described "constant torment" -- created by YOUR GOD.

For the EXPRESS PURPOSE of torturing anyone who doesn't "love him back".

AGAIN! FSM FOR THE WIN. Superior in every way that matters.
Sorry but I don't have the time to take the rest of this seriously at the moment.

Oh! That was your SERIOUS consideration?

I was laughing so hard, I though you were being a parody of your usual posts... !
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
A really good example of that kind of scripture that we both share faith in would be.

New International Version
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

If he wished to draw near to even those killing his own prophets how much more love must the father have for the average of sinners.

Yet... to anyone with an extensive, high quality education?

If they live long enough, they eventually become an ex-believer.

This trend can be demonstrated time and time again.

Why? Why is your god so inept, that it does not know what it would take to be ... CONVINCING to a rational, adult mind?
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
And I did: A parody religion makes MORE SENSE that your brutal, death-loving cult.
My religion is the only mainstream faith that destroys, demons, sin, Satan, and even death itself in the end. My religion brings the sad tale of destruction, misery, and death to an end and restarts the entire universe to be the garden of Eden it was originally meant to be and this time without the element that caused it to go so wrong in the first place. There is no greater an enemy of death than my faith.

Romans 8:38-39

For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:51-57

Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” “O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?”
The bolded part is one of my favorite versus and complete contradicts your pathetic caricature of Christianity.

John 11:25-26

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

John 3:16

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
25 Comforting Bible Verses about Death and Dying in Christ

I could keep quoting these disproof's of your ridiculous characterization of my faith but you probably won't even bother to read the few I did post. with or without my faith we have death and suffering but only with my faith do we have complete victory over both. Yet you want to banish the cure. Do you even read the stuff you say, I know you don't read what I post or the bible?

I suppose this is because the parody was written in modern times, whereas yours was written back when nobody understood where the sun goes at night.
Most of the bible was written hundreds of years after Euclidean geometry was understood. However claiming something is wrong because it is old is the same kind of genetic fallacy all teenager suffer from.

So it's understandable your religion is brutal, nasty and short: just like life was back then.
You are kind of right about this. Life was harsh (though the threat of nuclear war and industrialized abortion is no pick nick either) millennia ago and the bible is large part simple history so of course it contains tales of horror. My God didn't sit on Olympus aloof to our suffering and travails he entered into the same suffering we all do and triumphed through it. He took the worst acts men do to men and turned it into a victory that will end similar events for all time.



LMAO! So valuable that if they didn't shower your god with adoration, he would torture them for all eternity.

So valuable your god thought nothing of drowning the earth because the children were disobedient.

That's "value" all right: Pond Scum has more worthiness.
God never destroyed a culture because they didn't shower him with adoration. What religion are you talking about. As for the flood God considered the antediluvians so valuable that even though "their thought were evil at all times" he spent hundreds of years trying to get them to repent and even offered passage on the ark for anyone who would but take it but they (like you) simply refused to believe. He even severed his perfectly loving relationship with his son as he suffered on the cross to pay for the sins of the worst among us. Again you can't possibly value anything higher than the price God paid to redeem even the worst of us if we would but accept it.

Do you realize your not even trying to make arguments anymore. Your entire posts are nothing but rants and complaints that are usually based on ignorance of the faith your trying to hard to impugn. There are no facts in here to counter.



Here? You have 100% departed from what your bible said. But that's hardly surprising.
Without an example it is hard to agree or disagree.

You rarely back up your statements with what is printed in the bible.
Why would I quote (even though I have quite a few times) to quote from a book you don't know anything about yet hate? If you would actually make an argument about a biblical event maybe then a verse would be appropriate but you still wouldn't take the time to consider it. Your the bottom end of the debate barrel.

Even your Jesus described "constant torment" -- created by YOUR GOD.
The type of language usually used to describe hell is called apocalyptic imagery. It's usually analogies used to indicate the seriousness of what is lost by going to hell. Heck most of it is based on the valley of Gahanna where Jerusalem burned it's refuse from the city around the clock. But I never even hinted that Hell was free from torment. My understanding of Hell is that right now it is a real place. It's a place where God nor anything God comes with (love, peace, etc...) exists. Like I said it is complete separation from God which is exactly what atheists seem to seek out with all their might. However I believe that Hell is eventually destroyed and all it's contents (unbelievers) are annihilated for eternity. You want a verse backing this up here you go:

The Final Judgment
…13The sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead, and each one was judged according to his deeds. 14Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death — the lake of fire. 15And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.…

Or
New International Version
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

These verses destroy your positions. They show that in the end death itself is destroyed and that Hell (at least eventually) is the annihilation of the unbeliever. Annihilation being the only place a person can be separated from an omnipresent deity.

I can throw verses at you till they come out your ears but I don't you know what in the world you should do wit them. You honestly seem to have a pre-Sunday school understanding of the religion your trying so hard to trash.

For the EXPRESS PURPOSE of torturing anyone who doesn't "love him back".
For the express purpose of separating those who want God from those who don't. Again, in the end both sides get exactly what they want.

AGAIN! FSM FOR THE WIN. Superior in every way that matters.
There is not enough substance to the utterly absurd FSM to even judge. He wrote no books, saved no humans, sent no prophets, revealed nothing to the human heart. Not even those that invented this silly idea believe in it. Your going to die regardless you can hope in the FSM and I will hope in the risen Lord. I think me and my billions of brothers are in better hands than your tiny band of intellectually shipwrecked buffoons. I even give the poor Muslims better chances than you have.


Oh! That was your SERIOUS consideration?
No, that was my not finding anything worthy of seriously considering. Half the time I don't even know your being serious with your self.

I was laughing so hard, I though you were being a parody of your usual posts... !
What does that even mean?
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Actually I wasn't, and I'm not debating you now for reasons you well know.
Then what are you doing talking to me unsolicited in a debate forum? Make up your mind already. I don't know what to do with these thought fragments of yours. If your not debating me why are you responding to me without any request you do so from myself?
 
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1robin

Christian/Baptist
Yet... to anyone with an extensive, high quality education?
I have a degree in mathematics and 192 total semester hours but I have spent at least twice that long studying natural and revealed religion and philosophy. I think my credentials are more than sufficient though what that has to do with anything remains a mystery.

If they live long enough, they eventually become an ex-believer.
What on earth are you talking about? Christianity has more life long believers than any faith in human history and studies show that when death draws nearer those who draw close to faith increase. But I really am not sure I have any idea what your talking about.

This trend can be demonstrated time and time again.
No it cannot but if it could then you should have. You spend all your time claiming things are true and zero tiem showing they actually are.

Why? Why is your god so inept, that it does not know what it would take to be ... CONVINCING to a rational, adult mind?
He has convinced 1 out of every three people on earth despite cultural boundaries. Christianity is the only faith in human history to be significantly practiced in every nation on earth. The faith that was born under persecution in a tiny backwater of the Roman empire has become the most influential subject of it's type in all of human history. Lets just compare Christianity to Islam (no.2) there are more Christians than Muslims on earth despite the fact that any child of Muslim parents is listed as a Muslim at birth, in many places it is illegal to leave Islam (in some punishable by death), and Midwestern families birth rates far exceeds the dominant Christian west. The real question is what is wrong with your mind if it can't except the faith that did all this, and much much more.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
But if the after life is even possible then it is by far more deserving of our attention than this trivial spec of time. Your closing the door on even the possible yet accusing me of being closed minded. I don't get it.

Good luck trying to earn your way to heaven, and if heaven isn't the proper focus of our attention the worse. I would hate to think I threw away a chance at a perfect eternity fighting over the poor scraps of this life. If your world view doesn't hold an eternal afterlife as its proper focus then Billy Graham and Hitler end up the same anyway so who cares?
Sure the afterlife is a possibility, but the truth is that none of us knows for sure, and if it IS true, none of us knows anything about it. We only have what various religious traditions tell us, sacred texts that we believe by sheer blind faith. That's not a very good reason for making the afterlife the number one concern.

The one thing I just don't understand about Christians, is that you guys keep the Tanakh in your Christian Bibles, you even say it is the inspired very word of God, but then you say it is untrue. How can you accept Ecclesiastes 12:13 as "the word of God" and say it is untrue at the same time? Go figure.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
And what of all the vile things god has done? Do they not count for anything, or do you too cherry pick verses?

.
You mean God having people die? God is the author of life and death. We are born at his pleasure, and it is at his decree when we die and how it shall happen, whether old age or before our time, whether sickness, starvation, execution, or whatever. We ALL die. Every single one of us.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
You mean God having people die?
God is the author of life and death. We are born at his pleasure, and it is at his decree when we die and how it shall happen, whether old age or before our time, whether sickness, starvation, execution, or whatever. We ALL die. Every single one of us.
So that's it? God has every right to do with us as he wants, no matter how vile, and we're supposed to thank him?.

Leviticus 26:29; God describes how he will punish people by making them eat the flesh of their own sons and daughters.
Give thanks to the LORD, for he is good. His love endures forever. *

Joshua 6:20–21; God helps the Israelites destroy Jericho, killing “men, women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys”
Give thanks to the LORD, for he is good. His love endures forever. *

Deuteronomy 2:32–35; God has the Israelites kill everyone in Heshbon, including children.
Give thanks to the LORD, for he is good. His love endures forever. *

Deuteronomy 21:18–21; God demands that disobedient teenagers be stoned to death.
Give thanks to the LORD, for he is good. His love endures forever. *

* Psalm 136
.
 
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Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
My religion is the only mainstream faith that destroys, demons, sin, Satan, and even death itself in the end.

Oh. My. I seriously did not realize the extent of your blatant egotism.

Ain't it an amazing coincidence that you happened to be born in the exact right culture, that taught you the One And Only True© religion?

Of course: you have failed to show that demons are real, that sin is real, that Satan is real and that your religion can actually conquer death...

Pity. You would THINK that the One And Only True© religion would have ...

... FACTS to show it's validity.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
.

Why would I quote (even though I have quite a few times) to quote from a book you don't know anything about yet hate?

This is some Projective Assumption Strawman you have built up.

1) I not only know the bible better than YOU? Unlike you, I studied the whole ugly thing, cover-to-cover. I do not engage in your kind of Cherry Picking, either.

2) I don't hate the bible-- I despise it. For it has created extremely hateful and Judgmental people such as ...

... you.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
I have a degree in mathematics and 192 total semester hours but I have spent at least twice that long studying natural and revealed religion and philosophy. I think my credentials are more than sufficient though what that has to do with anything remains a mystery.

LMAO! A degree in ... religion?

Is that like getting a degree in Santa Claus? Or perhaps the Tooth Fairy?

Too funny. You wasted your education opportunities.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
What on earth are you talking about? Christianity has more life long believers than any faith in human history ...

This is a flat lie. But-- you failed to understand what I *actually* wrote:

I said, if they live long enough, and receive a quality education? They become atheists eventually.

Obviously, if they die too soon, or if they study dumb things? Like, say, getting a PhD in ... theology or some other area of mythology? They won't...
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
He has convinced .... ... The real question is what is wrong with your mind if it can't except the faith that did all this, and much much more.

Argument from Popularity Logical Fallacy.

But. Perhaps YOU ought to consider WHY your god is 100% incapable of convincing more than 20% of the entire human population, that it is not real? (unbelievers/agnostics/atheists comprise the fastest growing segment, according to the latest studies...)

Or worse? WHY is your god incapable of convincing roughly 6-7 billion people that "he" is the One True God? The vast majority of humans do NOT believe in your god at all...!

So if we go with Argument From Popularity? You lose. badly.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Sure the afterlife is a possibility, but the truth is that none of us knows for sure, and if it IS true, none of us knows anything about it. We only have what various religious traditions tell us, sacred texts that we believe by sheer blind faith. That's not a very good reason for making the afterlife the number one concern.
well as long as the afterlife is at least a possibility then it deserves our attention more than any other subject. We are going to be dead for a very long time, we ought to try and learn something about it.

Christianity doesn't just give you a relationship with a dusty old book which may or may not be true, it gives you a relationship with a risen Lord and also the Holy Spirit which in turn can expose you to thing others have no access to.

New International Version
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

I don't mean to be mean but you really ought to trade in your religion for mine. It offers so much more.

The one thing I just don't understand about Christians, is that you guys keep the Tanakh in your Christian Bibles, you even say it is the inspired very word of God, but then you say it is untrue. How can you accept Ecclesiastes 12:13 as "the word of God" and say it is untrue at the same time? Go figure.
Speaking for must of us we believe it is true and do not then claim it is untrue. I think it more accurate to say that it is true but the interpretation of it by Jews is incorrect.

The problem is Christians see our history with God as a time span consisting of two parts (or covenants). The old covenant (OT or the Law) but fault was found with this covenant (New International Version
For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.) So A second covenant (NT or grace) was instituted. The OT only contains half of so many stories that find their complete in the new testament it would blow you mind. In the opinion of Christians Jews are only holding half the truth and that half is also the lesser half. That is why we keep what you have but add what we have. You wouldn't believe how much richer the stories become when you have both half.
 
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