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Why Was It Necessary That Jesus Suffer On The Cross?

Skwim

Veteran Member
As god, or at least an aspect of god, who could walk on water and change water into wine, I would think Jesus could have easily stopped any of the suffering he was going through, either by preventing the torture itself or by stopping himself from feeling any of its effects.

That he did not seems to indicate it was all staged to do, what? Why was it necessary that Jesus appear to suffer in death? An appearance that, to me, seems a bit counterfeit.

Logical?

.
 
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Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
Personally my view is that Jesus did not died on the cross "for" the people, but "because" of the people who killed him. Could he stoped it, i guess yes, But i do not know why he did not.
 

JJ50

Well-Known Member
Jesus upset the religious community of his day and suffered the consequences. The gospels' idea that he was supposedly meant to die for the sins of the world is silly, as is the idea that he resurrected, imo.
 

Marcion

gopa of humanity's controversial Taraka Brahma
[if you are a Christian please don't read this posting any further below this line].


I'm convinced Yeshua never died on a cross and this is just part of the Christian religious myth formation after the failure of the mission of the historical Yeshua.
But I would never tell this to a Christian because their whole faith turns around their saviour having sacrificed his life for those who believe in the Christian Jesus.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
As I strongly suspect you know, Skwim, the standard reason given by most Christians for the necessity of Jesus suffering on the cross is that his suffering was a sacrifice necessary to redeem humanity from the original sins of Adam and Eve. Whether or not one buys into that story is in some respects immaterial. The notion of being redeemed (or saved) has obviously resonated with millions and millions of people down through the ages. One might argue it's all a myth, but then, so many things that people find profound meaning in are myths. Such as the notion of necessary historical progress.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
As god, or at least an aspect of god, who could walk on water and change water into wine, I would think Jesus could have easily stopped any of the suffering he was going through, either by preventing the torture itself or by stopping himself from feeling any of its effects.

That he did not seems to indicate it was all staged to do, what? Why was it necessary that Jesus appear to suffer in death? An appearance that, to me, seems a bit counterfeit.

Logical?

.

Many historians, including atheists agree Jesus was a real person and his crucifixion was true. The Gospel accounts record the Jesus knew of that He would be Martyred and it was all part of God's plan. It seems an essential part of the Christian narrative that's resonated for many Christians and non-Christians alike through the centuries. The sacrifice of Christ provides a symbol of love and hope. What greater sacrifice can there be than one who lays down His life for His fellow man?
 

PureX

Veteran Member
As god, or at least an aspect of god, who could walk on water and change water into wine, I would think Jesus could have easily stopped any of the suffering he was going through, either by preventing the torture itself or by stopping himself from feeling any of its effects.

That he did not seems to indicate it was all staged to do, what? Why was it necessary that Jesus appear to suffer in death? An appearance that, to me, seems a bit counterfeit.

Logical?
We are discussing a mythical religious story, intended to convey a message/ideal to those who read/hear it. The crux of the story is that Jesus is the human representation of God's divine spirit, on Earth, and his message is that we could all become similar representations of that divine spirit, if we are willing. And he promised that if we would be willing to allow ourselves to become this divine representation, we would be healed and saved from ourselves, can help to heal and save others, and heaven and Earth would finally become one.

The events that occur in the story are intended to help us understand this message, and promise, and to prepare us for the challenge that it invites into our lives. Jesus is serving us as the first example of this 'way of being'. And he shows us that the way will be difficult, but that the promise will be realized in the end.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
Because it was necessary that a story be written from the viewpoint of the victim of scapegoating violence, rather than the perpetrators, as so often as happens in history.

In doing so, Jesus ultimately conquered his Roman executioners. Their descendants a mere three and a half centuries later were all wearing crosses and bending their knees in churches before statues of the "Lord Jesus, King of Kings".

Not bad for a crucified criminal of the Roman state.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Because it was necessary that a story be written from the viewpoint of the victim of scapegoating violence, rather than the perpetrators, as so often as happens in history.

I think it can be argued that, in doing so -- in writing the story from the perspective of the persecuted -- Christianity revolutionized how the oppressed were to be viewed.
 
As god, or at least an aspect of god, who could walk on water and change water into wine, I would think Jesus could have easily stopped any of the suffering he was going through, either by preventing the torture itself or by stopping himself from feeling any of its effects.

That he did not seems to indicate it was all staged to do, what? Why was it necessary that Jesus appear to suffer in death? An appearance that, to me, seems a bit counterfeit.

Logical?

.

If he truely felt the pain, how would the pain be counterfiet?

It seams when solders sacrifice there life in a regular war for a country's freedom, most everyone sees that as legit, but a God or the Son of a God cannot do it?

In the spirit world, from the garden of eden, there was a war on for our souls. Jesus sacrificed himself to win the war.
 
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JJ50

Well-Known Member
Many historians, including atheists agree Jesus was a real person and his crucifixion was true. The Gospel accounts record the Jesus knew of that He would be Martyred and it was all part of God's plan. It seems an essential part of the Christian narrative that's resonated for many Christians and non-Christians alike through the centuries. The sacrifice of Christ provides a symbol of love and hope. What greater sacrifice can there be than one who lays down His life for His fellow man?

The gospel accounts might claim that, but they probably made that nonsense up.
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
As god, or at least an aspect of god, who could walk on water and change water into wine, I would think Jesus could have easily stopped any of the suffering he was going through, either by preventing the torture itself or by stopping himself from feeling any of its effects.

That he did not seems to indicate it was all staged to do, what? Why was it necessary that Jesus appear to suffer in death? An appearance that, to me, seems a bit counterfeit.

Logical?

.
where there is no change there is no evolution, where there is no suppression there is no revolution.


blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth


take up your yoke(cross) and follow me. friendship is two beasts of burden cultivating one love.






blessed are the poor in spirit for they shall see the fruit of the spirit, the kingdom of love.



The universe is drawn in circles. The memory of chariot wheels clacking across small stones foreshadows the asp's death as he wraps himself around the wheel. He is crushed by its embrace. The air crackles when Ra is within. And sailors who've known only cities by the sea and the whip of the rope and sail, come to moor at last amid a crush of flowers, and rejoice and weep and go on. The days before and the days after fill with the odor of pomegranates; the heart ripens like fruit and falls and breaks. Sweet meat for the lips of gods. On such a day one glances into the sky and finds the eye of Ra looks back. One finds loaves of bread on fine reed mats and the eye of Ra looks back. The air crackles. The sun beats on and on and on.

From The Egyptian Book of the Dead
translated by Normandi Ellis
 
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JJ50

Well-Known Member
I don't see any reason to disbelieve the crucifixion. The Roman were just executing another trouble maker as they saw it. The resurrection on the other hand.....:eek:

That guy probably was executed, but I am talking about the nonsense surrounding it, like taking away the sins of the world etc.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
I think it can be argued that, in doing so -- in writing the story from the perspective of the persecuted -- Christianity revolutionized how the oppressed were to be viewed.

Bingo.

Unfortunately, we have no histories written from the perspective of the generations of enslaved and abused helots in Ancient Sparta, who were made to wear dogskin caps and "receive a stipulated number of beatings every year regardless of any wrongdoing, so that they would never forget they were slaves."

Nor do most Jewish peasants living in a satellite state of the Roman Empire who were tortured and nailed to stakes by the occupying superpower, get a look in.

Typically, the 'strong' and elite classes were the educated, literate ones who were able live out their days into healthy old age - men like Plato, Aristotle, Thucydides, Suetonius - such that they had the leisure time to write official historical accounts under the patronage of the governing authorities. The Greek historian Thucydides (431 BC) articulated it best in his HISTORY OF THE PELOPONNESIAN WAR, when describing the policy of the Athenian Democracy, when it conquered the Melians and "the Melians surrendered at discretion to the Athenians, who put to death all the grown men whom they took, and sold the women and children for slaves, and subsequently sent out five hundred colonists and inhabited the place themselves".

He wrote, from the perspective of the Athenians:

The Melian Dialogue

Athenians. For ourselves, we shall not trouble you with specious pretences- either of how we have a right to our empire because we overthrew the Mede, or are now attacking you because of wrong that you have done us- and make a long speech which would not be believed; and in return we hope that you, instead of thinking to influence us by saying that you did not join the Lacedaemonians, although their colonists, or that you have done us no wrong, will aim at what is feasible, holding in view the real sentiments of us both; since you know as well as we do that right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they canand the weak suffer what they must.



As such, most of recorded human history has been the output of the 1% or those close to it - only rarely do we hear soundbites from the lower classes.

With Jesus, I do think something changes rather dramatically. His rural, fishermen disciples don't give up on him after he dies - the movement spreads and before long, gains converts like St. Paul and the authors of the Four Gospels among the literati. And so hagiographical accounts are written within 30-50 years about the life and words of this radical poor man from Galilee, on the fringes of the Roman Empire, who suffered a horrific demise as a petty criminal on charges of sedition against Rome.

And the image of the cross - and what it represents, the subversion of the power of the strong through the perseverance and undying spirit of the weak and oppressed - suddenly grips the imagination of huge swathes of the Roman public, and the authorities start to get worried that this movement isn't just another oriental cult - but represents an actual threat to the social order. As St. Paul boasted, Christ's crucifixtion had “destroyed every rule and every authority and power” (1 Cor. 15:24) because "the weakness of God is stronger than men” (1 Corinthians 1:25), "For He was crucified in weakness, but lives by the power of God." — (2 Corinthians 13:4) which means that, "[God's] grace is sufficient for you, for [his] power is made perfect in weakness.’ Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong." (2 Corinthians 12:9-10).

That's the significance of crucifixion for me. And yes, I think Jesus did have to die to expose the fact that for most of settled, agricultural society - civilization has been built upon a graveyard of oppressed and victimised people by those with privilege and the monopoly on power.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
That guy probably was executed, but I am talking about the nonsense surrounding it, like taking away the sins of the world etc.

I agree. I don't believe in the doctrine of the original sin and Paul often used hyperbole in what he taught. On the other hand through following the Teachings of Christ we can become better people.:)
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
I don't see any reason to disbelieve the crucifixion. The Roman were just executing another trouble maker as they saw it. The resurrection on the other hand.....:eek:

The crucifixion and baptism of Christ by John pass the test of historicity because you simply wouldn't make them up.

No one would create a mythical god in ancient Rome who was murdered as a petty criminal of the state, nor would anyone seeking to claim that Jesus was sinless have him baptised by John for remission of sins.

Evidently, these were historical facts that needed explanation.

In terms of the resurrection, as wild as the notion may seem from a purely secular POV - the fledgling movement couldn't have survived without this apparent belief that its beloved leader hadn't really remained dead but had been glorified by God and defied his murderers.

This was another act of resistance by the weak "aha Caesar! You think Jesus is dead like all those other condemned criminals? Think again! By the power of God, he lives and will live on in us and the gospel message we disseminate around the Roman Empire! He cannot be killed!"

It was a rather powerful rallying cry for a downtrodden movement badly in need of hope.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
Much of the Torah is also written from the perspective of the persecuted.

Not really.

A small and persecuted nation, yes, but written by the literate priestly and scribal elites in the court of Kingdom of Judah, and very favourable towards the monarchy until you get to Judges.

The Torah is the great national epic of a people, much like the Eddas and Homer's Iliad.

Christianity focuses instead on the "individual" within a state near the bottom of the social hierarchy who is condemned as a common criminal.

Big difference.

The prophets, yes - we begin a tradition in the Nevi'im (rather than the Torah) of people resisting from the margins and talking truth to power but again much of it is highly national-focused.
 
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