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Why was it necessary for God to sacrifice His son, Jesus?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by retrorich, Dec 12, 2005.

  1. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

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    Well, I look at it this way:

    God's will is not necessarily scrutable to man. Muhammed points out that everytime a Prophet comes He is opposed and the opposers have sometimes killed and other times persecuted that Prophet throughout His life. The Bible says that no Prophet is honored in His own land.

    The point is that when a Prophet speaks, the very claim to Prophethood is a challenge to the priests and authorities of the previous religion. They are disconcerted that the new proclamation will take away their authority, privileges, honorariums and estate that they have come to prize more highly than their own Prophet and Scripture. That these opposers sometimes resort to murder is an enactment of self=will against God and from that sacrifice, divine energies are released to benefit all of Creation.

    If the Jews had executed Jesus, the symbol for His death and sacrifice would be a pile of stones. To Judaism death by hanging from a tree was particularly ignoble and horrific.

    In my faith, the forerunner of Baha`u'llah (the Bab) proclaimed a revelation and within six years was hung from an archway in a barracks square in Tabriz and executed by a firing squad of a battalion of soldiers (somewhere between 500 and 750 muskets). The records of the event are very similar to the traditional Christian rendition of the crucifixion. Here was another Prophet opposed by the priests of the traditional faith of His homeland, Who came to an outwardly ignoble end, but in reality released a flood of divine energies for the benefit of mankind.

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  2. Bishka

    Bishka Veteran Member

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    I believe is was necessary for Jesus to die. I believe that He died for our sins, our wrongs and for us to return back to Heaven, without His sacrafice, we would never be able to return to our Heavenly Father.
     
  3. YmirGF

    YmirGF Bodhisattva

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    No. Jesus's message would have "got out" regardless of what passion play he enacted.
     
  4. blueman

    blueman God's Warrior

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    It was part of God's will and Christ even made reference to it Himself in the Garden of Gethsemane the night before His crucifiction. He agonized over His pending fate and asked if the cup could be passed, but followed that with the statement "Not my will, but your will be done". It was part of God's plan for salvation. Many Old Testament believers would honor this future sacrifice by rendering burnt offerings to God as a symbol of the future sacrifice of the Messiah for the sins of mankind. God does not do things arbitrarilly, but has a plan and a purpose to accomplish His will. Jesus's incarnation, death and resurrection was the most important part of God's plan for mankind. :)
     
  5. longbowshooter

    longbowshooter New Member

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    When a thief steals something justice must be done, so when he is caught whatever was stolen must be returned and a penalty on top for restitution. Adam and Eve stole mortality. There is no way a human can repay a mortal life PLUS anything because they have nothing more than their life. Jesus, being fully human and fully divine could return the life with His and pay the penalty with His divinity.

    Hope this helps.

    Steve
     
  6. James the Persian

    James the Persian Dreptcredincios Crestin

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    I'm sure I said several times that I do not believe that the Crucifixion was necessary. Christ knew it was going to happen, that much seems clear, but He didn't make it happen. The prophets were told it would happen, but that doesn't mean God made it happen. Christ's death and Resurrection were necessary, but the manner of His death was not. I'm sure that it served a purpose, but I don't know what it is. Perhaps a public execution aided the growth of the Church more than a natural death would have, who knows? It sounds plausible but I am not willing to stand up and say that I understand all of God's reasons. Christ's Incarnation, death and Resurrectiopn were necessary for our salvation. The Crucifixion is only important insofar as it was the manner by which He died. It is not necessary to the salvation provided by Christ and that could have quite easily been provided without the Crucifixion. Have I explained it clearly enough yet?

    James
     
  7. James the Persian

    James the Persian Dreptcredincios Crestin

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    How is it justice to punish someone else for my sins? It simply isn't. I cannot call a God who would do such a thing all Good. He is neither just, nor merciful, nor loving if He will torture and kill His own Son in our stead. This is the major failing of the whole juridical model prevalent in the west, and thank God that the Holy Spirit has preserved our Church from following it. I could never worship such a God. I'd find myself cheering Satan as a spirotual freedom fighter.

    James
     
  8. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    Because only a perfect man could pay the price of the ransom
    The most significant ransom price is the shed blood of Jesus Christ, which made deliverance from sin and death possible for the offspring of Adam

    That is why, just as through one man (Adam)sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned ........romans 5;12

    "God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life."—JOHN 3:16

    For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord......... romans 6;23

    For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all—[this is] what is to be witnessed to at its own particular times .....1 timothy 2;3-6

    (Colossians 1:14) by means of whom we have our release by ransom, the forgiveness of our sins

    "The word ransom means literally a price paid for the redemption of captives

    (Mark 10:45) For even the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his soul a ransom in exchange for many."

    Adam sold all of mankind, including us, into sin and death. The price, or penalty, he paid was his perfect human life, with the potential of living forever. To cover this, another perfect human life—a corresponding ransom—had to be paid. However, nobody born from imperfect men could provide the needed perfect human life. (Job 14:4; Psalm 51:5) In his wisdom, however, God opened up a way out of this mess. He transferred the perfect life of his only-begotten Son from the heavens to the womb of a virgin, letting him be born as a perfect man. (Luke 1:30-38; John 3:16-18 ) this was a logical step in God’s provision of the ransom. so the aim of God is to give us everlasting life back. we certainly are in bondage to sin and DEATH .but hey the ransom has been paid ,so we are on the way back to everlasting life if we want it

     
  9. Terrywoodenpic

    Terrywoodenpic Oldest Heretic

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    I do not believe your interpretations at all.

    The important facts are that Jesus was born.
    That he taught us how to live in God.
    That he died and
    That he rose again and assended to God

    I do not believe in the Adam and Eve story.
    I do not believe sins are ever transferred nor ever have been.
    There was no need of a ransome.
    He did not write a blank cheque, so that unrepented sins would be forgiven.

    He taught us that God was a God of love.
    That if we truly repent our sins will be forgiven.
    He taught us that we should love all men, as he does.
    He requires no less than this.
    We will then return to be with God.

    Terry__________________________
    Blessed are the gentle, they shall inherit the land
     
  10. SoyLeche

    SoyLeche meh...

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    I hessitate to post this because it is NOT official LDS doctrine. It is, however, based off of LDS scripture. This is one of the talks that people within the church either love or hate. I find it thought provoking, but am unsure of some of his conclusions. It's kinda long, so I'm posting a link to a copy that I found on the web. Take it for what it's worth. I don't think I'm up to debating his arguments - either for or against.

    http://www.onefour1.com/atonement.asp
     
  11. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    yes many people reject what the bible says regarding the ransom ,after all it is the bible telling us that the ransom is a bible teaching, the bible teaches that Jesus paid the price , but thats the way it is , if we reject the Genesis account ,we then miss the first ever prophecy in the bible at Genesis 3;15 and this prophecy runs though the whole of the bible, from the first book of Genesis to the last book of revelation . and the understanding about this first ever prophecy is being revealed in the time of the end ....which is now..... dont miss out by picking out bits and dismissing bits , we need it all to gain accurate knowledge about Jehovah God and his son Jesus christ.
    All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work 2 timothy 3;16 it would not be a good thing to cast off Gods word the bible by saying we dont believe in the Adam and eve account . Jesus always spoke truth and he believed in the Adam and eve account, in fact we can see the family tree in the bible going all the way back to the first man Adam

     
  12. Anastasios

    Anastasios Member

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    Death on the Cross
    Ten Arguments From the Bible
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Strangely enough the three great nations of the world : Jews, Christians and Muslims are at variance with regard, both, to the birth as well as the death of Jesus Christ who was born among the Jews. The Jews declare his birth to be illegitimate and they are guilty of uttering a grievous calumny against Mary, mother of Jesus. They declare him to be unfit to "enter the congregation of the Lord" because of his illegitimate birth (God forbid). The Christians on the other hand believe that Jesus Christ was born without the agency of an earthly father and that he was the son of God Himself.
    This shows that both the Jews and the Christians have gone to the opposite extremes as regards Jesus's birth. The Muslims on their part, believe that Jesus, no doubt, was born without agency of an earthly father, but he was not the son of God. A fatherless birth, may be a strange incident but it is not unnatural. There have been cases in medical history where virgins have given birth to babies. The Muslims believe that Jesus was a true prophet of God. His birth, without the agency of man, has nothing to do with his sonship or his divinity. He was human, pure and simple. Jesus invariably calls himself the 'Son of man' in the New Testament.

    Jesus' Death



    His death is equally a controversial affair with the Jews, the Christians and the Muslims. The Jews believe that Jesus died on the cross because he was a false prophet. In this Connection they quote the Bible.

    "And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree" is "the accursed of God".

    (Deut.21:22-23).

    According to them, Jesus was a false prophct, therefore he died on the cross as the accursed of God. The Christians also believe that Jesus was hanged on the cross and died an accursed death. Says Paul:

    "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree".

    (Galatians 3:13).

    But the Holy Quran declares that Christ did not die on the Cross. God saved him from death by crucifixion in the same way as He saved His dear ones from tribulations, Did not Jonah the Prophet come out alive from the belly of the whale? The fact of the matter is that Jesus Christ only fell into a swoon on the Cross, but when he was taken down from it, he recovered then died a natural death at the good old age of 120.

    On the strength of their belief that Jesus was a false prophet the Jews, Particularly the Pharisees of his time brought serious political charges against him alleging that he was disloyal to the Roman Emperor, and that he claimed himself to be the King of the Jews. The governor, Pilate was not convinced of his guilt but being influenced by the tumult of the multitude he delivered Jesus to be crucified. They put him on the cross where he remained, at the utmost, for three or four hours only and then was taken down in a swoon and placed in a sepulchre in a garden nearby.

    Now in those days it took several days for criminals to die on the cross. They suffered the pangs of hunger and thirst and in most cases their legs were broken. They died a lingering death extending over several days. But it was not so in the case of Jesus Christ. Incidentally, he was put on the Cross on a Friday afternoon. The following being the Sabbath - day a day of religious observance by the Jews - no criminal could remain on the Cross on that Holy day, so he was taken down from it after about three or four hours. The loss of blood from the wounds caused him to fall into a swoon. He was taken for a dead man. His body was placed in a spacious sepulchre in a garden by Joseph of Arimathaea, his own disciple. Jesus being still alive in the sepulchre, left it on the third day in disguise, met his disciples at Galilee and ate with them. His wounds were healed by the application of an ointment especially prepared by his disciples for the purpose.

    This is the natural story of Jesus's Crucifixion but the Christians gave a strange version of his death which is not only unnatural but also against historical evidence as well as logic. They believe that Jesus actually died on the Cross but on the third day he rose up to the heavens. What a paradox! What a myth! Modern Christianity rests on the belief that Jesus died on the Cross. But if it is proved that he did not die on the Cross nor did he rise from the dead, then the whole edifice of Christianity tumbles to the ground. Paul, who is the real founder of modern Christianity, himself says:

    "And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain and your faith also vain".

    (Corinthians 15:14).

    The late Dr. Zwemer, the well-known American missionary says:

    "If our belief in the death of Christ on the Cross is wrong then the whole of Christianity is a farce".


    I - Jonah's Sign



    Now we proceed with our arguments from the Bible itself to show that Jesus did not die on the Cross. We read in the New Testament:

    "And when the people were gathered thick together, he (Jesus) began to say, this is an evil generation: they seek a sign: and there shall no sign be given it but the sign of Jonah the prophet. For as Jonah was a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man to this generation".

    (Luke 11: 29, 30).

    Again:

    "But he answered and said unto them; an evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign: and there shall be no sign given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonah: for as Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth".

    (Matthew 12: 39, 40).

    Jesus Christ is said here to give a sign to the people of his own time as Jonah, the prophet, had given to the Ninevites? Now what was the sign given by Jonah to the Ninevites? The Bible says:

    "Now the Lord had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights. Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord his God out of the fish's belly. And said, l cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest, my voice".

    (Jonah 1:17-2; 1,2).

    According to this verse is the Bible, Jonah was swallowed up by a big fish where he remained three days and three nights and then came out alive from the belly of the fish. It was a sign given to the Ninevites. Jonah prayed to God for deliverance while in the belly of the fish. The Lord heard his prayer and Jonah came out alive. Jesus says that no sign shall be given to the evil and adulterous generation of his time except that of Jonah. Now what is the resemblance between the two signs of Jonah and Jesus. It is nothing but going alive into the belly of the fish and the heart of the earth and coming out alive. Both Jonah and Jesus cried by reason of their respective afflictions and prayed to their Lord for deliverance. The prayers of both were heard. If Jesus did not enter the heart of the earth (sepulchre) alive, and come out alive, where is the resemblance of the two signs? Jesus promised to show only one sign to the generation of his time, but even if that sign be not proved to be true, is there anything also to prove the truth of his claim to be a prophet? Jesus's reference to the sign of Jonah simply means that he would not die on the cross. Therefore, there is every reason to believe that the swoon theory is not based on a wrong hypothesis.

    II - Pilate's Wife Sees a Dream



    "When he (Pilate) was set down on the Judgement seat, his wife sent unto him, saying, Have you nothing to do with that just man (Jesus): for I have suffered many things this day in a dream because of him".

    (Matthew 27:19).

    The lady's dream was really true and quite opportune. It purports to mean that Christ be saved from the accursed death on the Cross. God saves his dear ones by means of dreams of others as was the case with Joseph who was released from jail having interpreted the two dreams of Pharaoh. God wanted to protect Jesus against his enemies, hence the dream of the Roman governor's wife which influenced his judgement.

    III - The Roman Governor's Sympathetic Attitude



    The Jews presented the case of Jesus Christ to Pilate, the Roman Governor of Palestine. He held a judical inquiry into the case and declared that he was not guilty of the charges brought against him. He said unto them:

    "Ye have brought this man unto me as one that perverteth the people: and behold, I, having examined him before you, have found no fault in this man touching those things where of ye accuse him".

    (Luke 23:14).

    "He went out again unto the Jews and said unto them, l find in him no fault at all. But ye have a custom, that I should release unto you one at the passover: will ye, therefore, that l release unto you the King of the Jews? Then cried they all again, saying, Not this man, but Barabbas.".

    (John 18:38,40).

    And from thenceforth Pilate sought to release him: but the Jews cried out, saying, If thou let this man go, thou art not Caesars friend: whosoever maketh himself a king speaketh against Caesar".

    (John 19:12).

    From the references given above, it is evident that the Governor regards Jesus innocent of all the charges brought against him by the Jews, he tries his utmost to release him but when the Jews threatened to report him to the Caesar at Rome he yielded to them and handed Jesus over to them. However, secretly he took measures to see that Jesus should be saved.


    Continues in the next message, please read next message too.....
     
  13. Anastasios

    Anastasios Member

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    IV - Pilate's Scheme to Save Christ

    Pilate, the Governor, was thoroughly convinced of the innocence of Jesus Christ, he therefore, had a pre-planned scheme to save Jesus's life. As a responsible official of the Roman Empire he could not openly come to the forefront, but he was the master-mind behind the whole scheme and the chief actor in the drama. Other characters of the show were Joseph of Arimathaea, an honourable councillor and disciple of Jesus Christ. He had already had a sepulchre hewn out in a rock garden nearby. Another actor in the drama was a learned Jew named Nicodemus who was also in the know of the whole matter. We read of him in St. John:



    "And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes about a hundred pound weight".



    (John 19: 39).



    It was very clever of Pilate to choose Friday afternoon as the time for Jesus's crucifixion so that he could not rernain on the cross after sunset, the following day being Sabbath, so holy to the Jews. He selected Joseph and Nicodemus as the most trusted friends to execute the pre-arranged scheme. All necessary measures were adopted to bring Jesus to consciousness. Otherwise what did Nicodemus mean by bringing the mixture of myrrh and aloes ? Jesus was shown to have died in official records to pacify the Jews and the Imperial government at Rome. Joseph of Arimathaea boldly asked the Governor to hand over the 'body' of Jesus which request he readily granted. If the plan was not pre-conceived how could the Governor hand over the 'body' of Jesus to a stranger from outside. There is reason to believe that Jesus Christ himself must have been informed of the plan so that his prophecy might come true that as Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale's belly so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. Nicodemus's meeting with Jesus Christ the previous night brings into lime-light the whole story.
    V - Duration of Crucifixion


    The duration of crucifixion or the period of time for which Jesus remained on the Cross was not long enough to warrant his death on the Cross. Criminals generally took several days to die a lingering death on the cross on account of the loss of blood from the wounds on hands and feet, the physical pain and the pangs of hunger and thirst. The minimum time of death on the cross ranged between 24 and 28 hours, but in some cases it took several days to die on the cross. In such cases it became necessary to break the legs of the criminals so that death may be hastened and consumated.

    Let us now probe into the matter of Jesus's crucifixion. The New Testament tells us that Jesus remained on the cross for a few hours only. The actual duration of time Jesus remained on the cross was not more than three or four hours. Jesus Christ who was in the prime of his youth (33 years) and enjoyed excellent health, could not be expected to have died within so short a time. Especially as his legs were not broken as was done in the case of the two robbers crucified with him on the same day.

    It may not be out of place here to note that, according to the Roman calendar the day began with the rising of the sun and ended with its setting. The same custom is in vogue even to this day in Arab countries. According to John (19:14) it was about the sixth hour of the day (Friday) that Pilate spoke last to the Jews vis-a-vis Jesus crucifixion and handed him over to them.

    "And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour. And at the ninth hour, Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, LAMA SABACHTHANI, My God, My God why hast thou forsaken me?"

    (Mark 15:33, 34).

    This shows that Jesus retained his consciousness up to the ninth hour of the day and then he fell into a swoon, that the New Testament writers call "giving up the ghost".

    None of the writers were present on the spot to stand as eye-witness. The 'swoon' was taken to be 'death' and 'death on the cross' means an accursed death. Do we not read in the Bible,

    "for he that is hanged is accursed of God". (Deut. 21: 23).

    What an audacity on the part of Christians to call a true prophet of God an accursed of God.


    VI - Coming Out of Blood and Water



    "Then came the soldiers and break the legs of the first and of the other which was crucified with him. But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they break not his legs. But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water".

    (John 19: 3-234)

    The soldiers did not break the legs of Jesus for they took him for a dead man while actually he was in a state of swoon, or just to silence the angry Jews he was declared be a 'dead' man. But one of the soldiers incidentally "pierced his side and forthwith there came out blood and water", which is a surer sign of life for blood and water do not come out of a dead man's body. There is much food for thought here for those who care to ponder over it.


    VII - No Eye-Witness of Crucifixion


    Three writers of the Gospels state that there was darkness over all the land from the sixth to the ninth hour and that there was an earthquake and the rocks were rent and the veil of the temple was rent in twain. It is a matter of common experience at the time of a severe dust-storm accompanied by an earthquake, people generally hasten to go home and they do not enjoy the luxury of a bloody sight-seeing. Now imagine for a moment, who could stand as an eye-witness to tell the story that Jesus actually died on the cross. The Jews, if, at all, there were any on the spot, must have run away at the sight of the rising storm and the shaking of the earth must have frightened them to turn on their heels and hasten to their homes. As to the disciples they had already fled from the scene of the crucifixion.

    "Peter began to curse and to swear saying, l know not this man (Jesus) of whom you speak"(Mark 14:50).

    "And they forsook him (Jesus) and fled" (Mark 14:71).

    To be brief, there was no one present on the scene who could definitely and certainly say that he saw Jesus 'giving up the ghost'. This is all mere conjecture and imagination.

    Continues in next message, please read next message too...
     
  14. Anastasios

    Anastasios Member

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    Death on the Cross??? Part-3

    PS: Please before reading this message, first read two previous messages. Thank you very much...


    VIII - Jesus's Mission to the Lost Sheep of Israel


    "For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost". (Luke 19:10).

    "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold and one shepherd". (John 10:16)

    "And he said unto them, l must preach the Kingdom of' God to other cities also; For therefore l am sent". (Luke 4: 43).

    "But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of israel". (Matthew 15: 24).

    From the quotations given above, it is clear that Jesus's mission was to preach to all the twelve tribes of Israel that were scattered in the eastern countries extending from Palestine to India at the time of Jesus's appearance. Of the twelve tribes of Israel there were at that time, only two tribes in Palestine while the other ten were found scattered in the lands stretching from Palestine to the confines of India. Jesus cannot be said to have been successful in his mission if he does not address and preach to the ten lost sheep of Israel. Jesus's supposed death on the cross at the early age of 33 gives a shattering blow to the mission on which he was sent. The truth of the matter is that Jesus Christ, after his escape from the cross, did migrate to the East in search of the lost sheep for which there is ample historical evidence and is recently supported by the modern 'finds' of archaeology. Jesus found his lost sheep in Persia, Afghanistan and Kashmir, preached to them and comparatively he was much more successful here than in Palestine. He died a natural death and was buried in Srinagar, Kashmir.



    IX - Jesus's Victory Over His Enemies



    Addressing his disciples Jesus says :

    Before, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the father is with me. These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world you shall have tribulation but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world"

    (John 16:32,33).

    Now what does Jesus's victory consist of ? In his death on the cross or in his escape from the cross ? If he died on the cross then the Jews were successful because the very aim of their's was to prove that he was false in calling himself the Messiah. They had in their support the Biblical statement "he that is hanged is an accursed of God" (Deut. 21:23).

    But is we believe that he was taken down from the cross alive (in a state of swoon ofcourse) and he entered the heart of the earth alive, then he can rightly be said to have overcome his enemies and frustrated all their evil designs. Jesus says : "For as Jonah was a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation".

    In other words Jesus said to the Jews that God Almighty would save him from the clutches of death in the same way as He had saved Jonah from the belly of the whale. The similarity between the two incidents can be real and genuine only when Jesus enters the heart of the earth (grave) alive and comes out alive.

    X - His Prayer Was Heard




    From study of the Bible we learn that God listens to the prayers of his apostles and saves them from trials and tribulations. Says the New Testament:

    "The effectual fervent prayer of a religious man availeth much. Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months. And he prayed again and the heavens gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit".

    (James 5: 16-18).

    Again we read:

    "And Jesus lifted up his eyes and said father I thank Thee that Thou hast heard me. And I knew that Thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it that they may believe that Thou hast sent me"

    (John 11:14, 42).

    And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto Thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what 1 will but what Thou wilt".

    (Mark 14:36).

    From the quotations given above it is clear that Jesus was terribly afraid of being put to the cross, so he fervently prayed that the bitter cup be taken away from him. Jesus passionately and fervently prayed to God that he might be saved the accursed death on the Cross, how could he then, say that he had overcome the world; in case he died on the Cross, the mission of his whole life would come to naught and wrongdoers could challenge his claim to prophethood. The thought of death on the cross was simply grating upon his soul. Being a righteous prophet he was not afraid of mere death: he was certainly afraid of dying on the cross as such a death could be interpreted to mean an accursed death which was the very negation of his prophetic mission. He:

    "In the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death and was heard in that he feared".

    (Hebrews 5:7).

    Hence we must presume that his earnest prayer was, no doubt heard and he miraculously escaped death by crucifixion and lived long enough to preach his mission to the lost sheep of the Israelites in the East.

    These arguments prove that the idea of the crucifixion of Christ cannot be justified even from the Biblical point of view. Therefore, it is evident that the present Christian faith based on that erroneous idea, cannot hold ground.
     
  15. Mister_T

    Mister_T Forum Relic
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    Jesus was dead. Check this out. John 19:34 "Instead, one of the soilders pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water". Before he died, Jesus went into hypovolemic shock . This is the effect when someone looses large amounts of blood. This does four things: 1) the heart races to rty and pump blood that isn't there. 2)the blood pressure drops drops causing fainting or collapsing. 3)the kidneys stop producing urine to maintain what volume is left.. 4)the person become very thirsty and the body crave fluids to replace the lost blood volume. Jesus was in hypovolemic shock as he staggered up the road to the execution site, carrying the horizontal beam of the cross. Finally Jesus collapsed and the Roman soilder ordered Siomon to carry the cross for him and Jesus said "I thirst" at which point a sip of vinegar was offered to him.

    What does this have to do with John:19:34? Keep reading. The hypovolemic shock would have caused a sustained rapid heart rate that would have contributed to heart failure, resulting in the collection of fluid in the membrane around the heart called a pericardial effusion. And when that Roman speared Jesus to make sure he was dead he would have most likely stabbed him in the heart because Roman soilders had a lot of incentive to make sure that a crucifixion crimnal is dead before they take them down (if they were not dead, that soilder would have been executed). And when he pulled that spear out, some fluid, the pericardial effusion, came out which would have had the appearance of a clear, fluid like waterfollwed by a large volume of blood, as the eyewitness John descrbed in in his gospel.
     
  16. Mister_T

    Mister_T Forum Relic
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    Bottom line is this: If you look at the human race a whole...we suck as species. We rape, kill destroy, etc. We are sick and because of this, we could never amount to what God wants us to be. God's law requires a sacrifice for our atonement. If God were to one day say " Ah you know what, I'm just going forgive everyone and forget all of these silly laws that I layed down" God would be making himself like a door mat saying to the human race "It's ok. Walk all over me" I don't know about anyone else but I couldn't have respect for someone who let's people walk all over them and I certaintly could not have any respect for myself if I allowed that. So God had to stick to his guns and back up what he said by sending a human being who is perfect in every single way to be sacrificed. You have to look at the big picture and not just individuals. Jesus paid the price for the human race as a WHOLE. We as a race would be/are doomed by our own merits. Just look at the world around you.
     
  17. BUDDY

    BUDDY User of Aspercreme

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    I don't believe that God sacrificed His son, but sent him to earth, to take the form of man, and be sacrifice by men. Semantics to some I know, but it is important to note the distinction.

    I personally have so many questions as to how the shedding of Christ's blood removes sin, that I can't begin to try and explain it to you. I do know that His sacrifice was necessary if man was to have any hope of being forgiven of sin.
     
  18. Anastasios

    Anastasios Member

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    In this point, it is needed to be answered those questions:
    1. Why was it necessary for Jesus to die physically so that man could attain salvation? What significance does physical death have with spiritual life?
    2. According to the Doctrine of Atonement, the sins of the guilty are redeemed by the death of Jesus. Jesus was sinless. How can the sins of the guilty be borne by the death of an innocent man? Is it divine justice to punish an innocent person for the crimes committed by the guilty?
    3. If Jesus believed in the Doctrine of Atonement, why would he tell his disciples that if they forgave others, God would forgive them (Matthew 6:14, 15)? If Atonement forgives all sins, what further need is there to seek the forgiveness of others?
    4. If, as according to Paul, man can do nothing by himself to attain salvation (Romans 3:24, 3:28, 9:11, 9:16, Galations 2:16), what is the point of obeying the commandments? (Mark 10:17-19, Luke 10:25, Matthew 19:16-20)
    5. If Atonement forgives all sins, why did Jesus say that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit would not be forgiven? (Matthew 12:31) Is there a distinction between forgivable and unforgivable sins? If so, how does one distinguish between the two?
    6. If it is Jesus's death which forgive sins, and not any personal effort on the part of the sinner (such as carrying out good works, restraining from evil habits, etc.), what motive is there for a person to avoid sin and evil conduct?
    7. If Jesus redeemed the sins of the world by his crucifixion, that could only atone for the sins of the world up to that point. What about sins after the crucifixion? If it also covers later sins, how does one reconcile that with Paul's remark that Jesus's sacrifice is for earlier sins and he cannot be crucified a second time (Hebrews 10:26, 66)
    8. If belief in the resurrection and atonement is essential, how was it that Jesus forgave the sins of an adulteress even though she did not believe in him nor in his redemption? (Matthew 8:1-11)
    9. Jesus taught his disciples to pray during his lifetime. He taught them also to pray after his death (Matthew 6:9-15). What further need is there to pray if Atonement forgives all sins?
    10. If salvation can only be attained by belief in Jesus's death and resurrection, why is there no reference to it whatsoever in the two greatest summaries of Jesus's teachings: The Sermon on the Mount and the Lord's Prayer?
     
  19. pandamonk

    pandamonk Active Member

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    Hey, just had a thought, never thought of it before. How could Jesus's death be a sacrafice? The choice was not God's, Jesus's, or anyone else connected with these two's. It was the choice of the people who executed him, and this choice could not have been changed or forced onto them by God, or otherwise, due to their free will. So if this was not a meant sacrafice, what's the big deal? Why did God send his son?
     
  20. jimbob

    jimbob The Celt

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    It was a sacrifice. If God had wanted, he could have snapped his fingers, and guess what? those "people who executed him" could be dead. He let himself be killed to show his love for us. How is that not a choice?
     
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