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Why Torah based Jews would be unconvinced

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
"If that is what you consider to be true then why does it matter to you what we Jews say?" That is the question I often want to ask when threads are started as if they are asking questions to Jews when instead what is being posted is a statement or manifesto. That is not to say that some people aren't actually asking honest questions. I am speaking about a minority of situations where someone really isn't.

Just for the sake of brevity there is a real simply way to understand why Torah based Jews don't buy into Christian theology.
  1. The same arguements presented today from various sects of Christianity have been presented for the last 1,500 years.
  2. Literally, there is nothing new about the arguements - and the only time that Christianity recieved a positive response to it was when Jews were being tortured and threatened into becoming Christian. (Inquisitions and such)
  3. You're not the first Christian in the last 2,000 years to take information written by Jews and say how wrong we are - we got it, thank you for your concern.
  4. What it really boils down to is that a Christian bible is not scripture for Torah based Jews.
    • Literally, we are not reading the same texts. Your translations were crafted by Christian translators with Christian agendas.
    • Jews who know Hebrew/Aramaic can read the originals w/o having to deal that issue. You won't convince us with anything less than proof from the originals.
    • Consider statistically how few Hebrew/Aramaic fluent Torah based Jews willingly bacame Christian in the last year. The last ten years. The last several hundred years, etc.
  5. Whether you like it or not the Hebrew/Aramaic Tanakh is the only authorative version for Torah based Jews.
    • Even translations made by other Jews are not "authoratitive." especially since there are literally a large enouch set of Jews in the world who understand Hebrew and Aramaic at a high level.
  6. The Talmud won't help you prove Jesus to us, so just leave the Talmud to the professionals - Torah based Jews.
    • For every statement in English translations of the Talmud you think supports Christian theology there are 20 in the actual texts that contradict it from some of the very same rabbis you try to quote.
  7. Further, to the Talmud point. If you haven't read the Talmud in Hebrew/Aramic then you haven't really read it.
    • Here is something that may shock you. Certain copies of the Talmud were edited and written in Hebrew/Aramaic code due to.......drum roll......the reality that various European Christian authorities had a thing for censoring and(or) burning anything they suspected gave a bad light to Jesus.
    • Even Jews who don't know Hebrew/Aramaic don't really know the Talmud. Thus, when Jews want to really learn Talmud they have to learn how to read and understand Hebrew and Aramaic from Jewish teachers who are fluent in it.
  8. If what you beleive as a Christian makes you happy then you keep it. It is yours, enjoy. You won't get any arguement from most Jews about what you personally beleive. We are not here to try to convince you to take on our views.
I post this out of concern for the time and effort that someone may decide to put into the, "The Jews are so wrong and I have a clever new arguement or angle to prove it." In reality, you don't. You really don't.
 
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pearl

Well-Known Member
I post this out of concern for the time and effort that someone may decide to put into the, "The Jews are so wrong and I have a clever new arguement or angle to prove it." In reality, you don't. You really don't.

There is a delightful little book by Rabbi Jacob Neusner,
'A Rabbi Talks With Jesus' in which he explains why it is not possible for Jews to believe in Jesus as Messiah. Interestingly, he is quoted extensively by Pope Benedict XVI in his book 'Jesus of Nazareth'. Both have had an ongoing dialogue for many years.

The Pope and I: A Debate With Jesus Is Joined By Benedict XVI – The Forward

In my 1993 book “A Rabbi Talks With Jesus,” I imagined being present at the Sermon on the Mount, when Jesus taught Torah like Moses on Sinai. I explained why, for good and substantial reasons based in the Torah, I would not have followed Jesus but would have remained true to God’s teaching to Moses. Much to my surprise, Pope Benedict XVI, in his new book “Jesus of Nazareth,” devotes much of his chapter on the Sermon on the Mount to discussing my book.
 

Lain

Well-Known Member
"If that is what you consider to be true then why does it matter to you what we Jews say?" That is the question I often want to ask when threads are started as if they are asking questions to Jews when instead what is being posted is a statement or manifesto. That is not to say that some people aren't actually asking honest questions. I am speaking about a minority of situations where someone really isn't.

Just for the sake of brevity there is a real simply way to understand why Torah based Jews don't buy into Christian theology.
  1. The same arguements presented today from various sects of Christianity have been presented for the last 1,500 years.
  2. Literally, there is nothing new about the arguements - and the only time that Christianity recieved a positive response to it was when Jews were being tortured and threatened into becoming Christian. (Inquisitions and such)
  3. You're not the first Christian in the last 2,000 years to take information written by Jews and say how wrong we are - we got it, thank you for your concern.
  4. What it really boils down to is that a Christian bible is not scripture for Torah based Jews.
    • Literally, we are not reading the same texts. Your translations were crafted by Christian translators with Christian agendas.
    • Jews who know Hebrew/Aramaic can read the originals w/o having to deal that issue. You won't convince us with anything less than proof from the originals.
    • Consider statistically how few Hebrew/Aramaic fluent Torah based Jews willingly bacame Christian in the last year. The last ten years. The last several hundred years, etc.
  5. Whether you like it or not the Hebrew/Aramaic Tanakh is the only authorative version for Torah based Jews.
    • Even translations made by other Jews are not "authoratitive." especially since there are literally a large enouch set of Jews in the world who understand Hebrew and Aramaic at a high level.
  6. The Talmud won't help you prove Jesus to us, so just leave the Talmud to the professionals - Torah based Jews.
    • For every statement in English translations of the Talmud you think supports Christian theology there are 20 in the actual texts that contradict it from some of the very same rabbis you try to quote.
  7. Further, to the Talmud point. If you haven't read the Talmud in Hebrew/Aramic then you haven't really read it.
    • Here is something that may shock you. Certain copies of the Talmud were edited and written in Hebrew/Aramaic code due to.......drum roll......the reality that various European Christian authorities had a thing for censoring and(or) burning anything they suspected gave a bad light to Jesus.
    • Even Jews who don't know Hebrew/Aramaic don't really know the Talmud. Thus, when Jews want to really learn Talmud they have to learn how to read and understand Hebrew and Aramaic from Jewish teachers who are fluent in it.
  8. If what you beleive as a Christian makes you happy then you keep it. It is yours, enjoy. You won't get any arguement from most Jews about what you personally beleive. We are not here to try to convince you to take on our views.
I post this out of concern for the time and effort that someone may decide to put into the, "The Jews are so wrong and I have a clever new arguement or angle to prove it." In reality, you don't. You really don't.

Indeed, them not being convinced (and why) is actually part of our Scriptures and so is to be entirely expected. In my opinion from the history I've seen we really just keep up the Adversus Judaeos tradition for ourselves, since after a very early point in Church history those works generally stopped representing actual attempts to convince and debate and present that religion in the best way but instead to present Christianity to Christians. I think this is because Christianity historically dominated and ultimately since the basis of the faith is the Lord Jesus no one really feels like they have to answer Jews about anything or truly convince them.

But yeah it's an interesting sphere. God bless.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
"If that is what you consider to be true then why does it matter to you what we Jews say?" That is the question I often want to ask when threads are started as if they are asking questions to Jews when instead what is being posted is a statement or manifesto. That is not to say that some people aren't actually asking honest questions. I am speaking about a minority of situations where someone really isn't.

Just for the sake of brevity there is a real simply way to understand why Torah based Jews don't buy into Christian theology.
  1. The same arguements presented today from various sects of Christianity have been presented for the last 1,500 years.
  2. Literally, there is nothing new about the arguements - and the only time that Christianity recieved a positive response to it was when Jews were being tortured and threatened into becoming Christian. (Inquisitions and such)
  3. You're not the first Christian in the last 2,000 years to take information written by Jews and say how wrong we are - we got it, thank you for your concern.
  4. What it really boils down to is that a Christian bible is not scripture for Torah based Jews.
    • Literally, we are not reading the same texts. Your translations were crafted by Christian translators with Christian agendas.
    • Jews who know Hebrew/Aramaic can read the originals w/o having to deal that issue. You won't convince us with anything less than proof from the originals.
    • Consider statistically how few Hebrew/Aramaic fluent Torah based Jews willingly bacame Christian in the last year. The last ten years. The last several hundred years, etc.
  5. Whether you like it or not the Hebrew/Aramaic Tanakh is the only authorative version for Torah based Jews.
    • Even translations made by other Jews are not "authoratitive." especially since there are literally a large enouch set of Jews in the world who understand Hebrew and Aramaic at a high level.
  6. The Talmud won't help you prove Jesus to us, so just leave the Talmud to the professionals - Torah based Jews.
    • For every statement in English translations of the Talmud you think supports Christian theology there are 20 in the actual texts that contradict it from some of the very same rabbis you try to quote.
  7. Further, to the Talmud point. If you haven't read the Talmud in Hebrew/Aramic then you haven't really read it.
    • Here is something that may shock you. Certain copies of the Talmud were edited and written in Hebrew/Aramaic code due to.......drum roll......the reality that various European Christian authorities had a thing for censoring and(or) burning anything they suspected gave a bad light to Jesus.
    • Even Jews who don't know Hebrew/Aramaic don't really know the Talmud. Thus, when Jews want to really learn Talmud they have to learn how to read and understand Hebrew and Aramaic from Jewish teachers who are fluent in it.
  8. If what you beleive as a Christian makes you happy then you keep it. It is yours, enjoy. You won't get any arguement from most Jews about what you personally beleive. We are not here to try to convince you to take on our views.
I post this out of concern for the time and effort that someone may decide to put into the, "The Jews are so wrong and I have a clever new arguement or angle to prove it." In reality, you don't. You really don't.

I'm sorry, but I object to your claim to speak for all Jews. If you choose to discuss an issue of interest to both Christians and Jews, then that is a matter of choice. No one has forced you into a 'disputation' with threats of death!

As a believer in Jesus as Christ, I am bound to present a view that challenges what Torah Jews believe. Much of the time, I am not using the Greek scriptures, but am quoting from English translations of the Hebrew/Aramaic text. I don't accept that a translation takes away all meaning from the original language. Good translation/transliteration makes allowance for nuances in meaning, and there are many translations that can be compared. There are also concordances and dictionaries that allow for individual words to be checked for meaning.

Then there's the issue of whether the Hebrew God is the same as the Christian God. Since both Christian and Jew believes in one God, and the Christian claims are based, at source, on the prophecies of the Tanakh, it seems highly likely that Christian and Jew are believing in the same God.

So, does God have two truths, one for the Torah Jew and another for the 'body' of Christ? There may be two distinct paths, but the king must ultimately be the same king, the face of God. Or are Torah Jews claiming a king who is not God?
 

Lain

Well-Known Member
Then there's the issue of whether the Hebrew God is the same as the Christian God. Since both Christian and Jew believes in one God, and the Christian claims are based, at source, on the prophecies of the Tanakh, it seems highly likely that Christian and Jew are believing in the same God.

In my opinion: only in a Samaritan way, like the Lord Jesus says "you do not know who you worship but we know who we worship." As they explicitly have different ideas of God (most notably on the Trinity) this must be the sense of it I think.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
I'm sorry, but I object to your claim to speak for all Jews. If you choose to discuss an issue of interest to both Christians and Jews, then that is a matter of choice. No one has forced you into a 'disputation' with threats of death!

Of course. Thus, you agree with the OP. It only makes sense for any Torah based Jew to deal with real questions about what Torah based Jews hold by while ignoring manifestos and statements - the current situation allows for that and we are all the better for it. I am also glad we agree on that point alone.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Then there's the issue of whether the Hebrew God is the same as the Christian God. Since both Christian and Jew believes in one God.

Given that the Hebrew text never uses the English word "god" and given that a "god" means compeltely different things to people who use that word you can't be sure that we beleive in anything that is similar, unless you have asked.

For example, I and other Jews like me don't beleive in the Western or even the Christian concept of a "god" so we don't agree on that one.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
As they explicitly have different ideas of God (most notably on the Trinity) this must be the sense of it I think.

It even goes beyond that. Conceptually speaking, ancient Hebrew doesn't even carry a concept that really translates into the Christian and the Western concept of a god, with the closests eception of the words (אליל) or (אלילים).

Thus, when Jews who know ancient Hebrew use the English term god they are often doing so with a completely different concept in mind that doesn't really fit the word itself as both Christians and Westerners use it. There are some Jews, like myself, who avoid the word due to its foreign nature and concept but that is another story.

For example, most westerners would consider it strange for an English speaker to call a human judge who sits in a court room a "god." In ancient Hebrew, the term (אלהים) elohim denotes power, strength, or the ability to do and was also used for Jewish judges and leaders of the Jewish people.

Further, the Hebrew text of the Tanakh completely contradicts the concept of a trinity, thus a Torah based Jew would not attach themselves to such an idea because it is (עבודה זרה) Avodah Zara and something that The Creator of all warned Jews to stay away from.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Given that the Hebrew text never uses the English word "god" and given that a "god" means compeltely different things to people who use that word you can't be sure that we beleive in anything that is similar, unless you have asked.

For example, I and other Jews like me don't beleive in the Western or even the Christian concept of a "god" so we don't agree on that one.
But since I believe in the God of Israel, I am sure it is the same God. Where we may differ is over God's way of intervening in our world, and making himself known.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
no one really feels like they have to answer Jews about anything or truly convince them.

Exactlay. When this concept is maintained everything goes perfectly well since Jews have no concept of trying to convert Christians and when Christians have no concept of trying to debate or convince Jews both sides get along just fine.
 
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Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
But since I believe in the God of Israel, I am sure it is the same God. Where we may differ is over God's way of intervening in our world, and making himself known.

I won't argue with your "beleifs." You are free to have them.

I will only present that Torah based Jews won't be convinced to take on your beleifs. (It is not like you need us to have them or take them on anyway. I.e. you gain nothing from a manifesto to us about your beleifs in Christianity.) If you really read the OP that is what I was getting at.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
I will state this point again in large and bold to make this point clear.

If what you believe as a Christian makes you happy then you keep it. It is yours, enjoy. You won't get any arguement from most Jews about what you personally believe. We are not here to try to convince you to take on our views!
 

Lain

Well-Known Member
It even goes beyond that. Conceptually speaking, ancient Hebrew doesn't even carry a concept that really translates into the Christian and the Western concept of a god, with the closests eception of the words (אליל) or (אלילים).

Thus, when Jews who know ancient Hebrew use the English term god they are often doing so with a completely different concept in mind that doesn't really fit the word itself as both Christians and Westerners use it. There are some Jews, like myself, who avoid the word due to its foreign nature and concept but that is another story.

For example, most westerners would consider it strange for an English speaker to call a human judge who sits in a court room a "god." In ancient Hebrew, the term (אלהים) elohim denotes power, strength, or the ability to do and was also used for Jewish judges and leaders of the Jewish people.

Is there something other than that which differs in the idea of the word God between Jews and Christians? For we affirm that it is right to call human judges gods, and also spiritual beings (most often called angels and demons).
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Is there something other than that which differs in the idea of the word God between Jews and Christians?

Yes. I will explain that in a bit. See below first.

For we affirm that it is right to call human judges gods, and also spiritual beings (most often called angels and demons).

Please give the parameters for what the word God means when you capalize it vs. when you lower case it. Also, where do Christians get the idea that human judges/i.e. non divine people can be called gods? Is that somethign found in the New Testament? Is this something agreed upon by all Christians? If not, what type/denomination of Christians hold by this and when did they first come up with the idea?
 

Lain

Well-Known Member
Yes. I will explain that in a bit. See below first.

Please give the parameters for what the word God means when you capalize it vs. when you lower case it. Also, where do Christians get the idea that human judges/i.e. non divine people can be called gods? Is that somethign found in the New Testament? Is this something agreed upon by all Christians? If not, what type/denomination of Christians hold by this and when did they first come up with the idea?


God lowercase:

(1) dead humans/disembodied humans (same thing).
(2) human judges and those in authority.
(3) divinized humans (read: Saints).
(4) spiritual beings, most commonly called angels and demons (I dislike the term angels and often instead say "pure spirits" because angel is a function not an essence, the postman is an angel, perhaps the most commonly seen one).

God in uppercase:

(1) The Divine Nature.
(2) The Divine Persons as a whole.
(3) Most properly and used nearly exclusively in the NT (I can only think of two examples of it not being so and really they might not be true examples at all, it may very well be exclusive), God the Father, who is the Principle without Principle of All (even the other Divine Persons), the Uncaused Cause in the purest sense, "the Only True God."

The idea is in the Torah and Histories for examples of the lowercase usages. Most is made of the third lowercase usage in the Church Fathers, for St. Peter said we become "partakers in the divine nature," divinization, and so the Fathers and many say:

"They said of Abba Macarius the Great that he became, as it is written, a god upon earth, because, just as God protects the world, so Abba Macarius would cover the faults which he saw, as though he did not see them; and those which he heard, as though he did not hear them."

There is also all the talk of "God became man so that man might become god," being deified by grace and not a change of nature, and so on, and Origen spoke of how if we follow the Spirit when God comes to us it is "God gathered in the midst of the gods," etc, etc.

Not all Christians acknowledge the doctrine but it is presented in the Fathers and the Church from of old, and I'd say from the Lord Jesus Himself saying, "was it not said that you are all gods" and so on.

Christians who acknowledge the Church Fathers are divinely inspired witnesses to the Faith recognize this doctrine, can't say much for the others.

(Note: I also say "witnesses" or "presented" because it is a fundamental thought for the Christians I just described that the doctrines are unchanging and not new, but that even the Church is eternal just so you get the usage.)
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Not all Christians acknowledge the doctrine but it is presented in the Fathers and the Church from of old, and I'd say from the Lord Jesus Himself saying, "was it not said that you are all gods" and so on.

Christians who acknowledge the Church Fathers are divinely inspired witnesses to the Faith recognize this doctrine, can't say much for the others.

Okay. First, thank you for that break down. That is actually one of the most clear break downs I have seen a Christian give about how their concepts work and the source of them.

So, per you earlier question I will answer what the differences are that I was describing. I will try to do w/o as little text as possible. If I missed something I think some of the other Torah based Jews on the forum can help also.

Below I have marked the concepts that you have listed that are considered what is called Avodah Zara for Jews, according to Torath Mossheh and Orthodox Judaism. I apologize for how it may sound in a written form but it is one of the only ways to express it in writing.

God lowercase: God in uppercase:

This statement, sttarts knocking on the door of a strange concept contrary to Torath Mosheh. If all that seperates the two scenarios is an upper case or lower case letter this starts to draw the question of, "What is the root of the word god which requires it to have a distinction using capitals?"

In Hebrew there are no capitals so the use of capitals to designate between a person and something else is a bit foreign.

God in uppercase:
(1) The Divine Nature.
(2) The Divine Persons as a whole.

So the above is also Avodah Zara for Jews. The connection between a "divine nature" and "divine persons as whole" is a foreign concept that Jews were warned to stay away from by The Source of Creation/Reality. The source of this comes from numerous places one of which is the following from the Torah.

upload_2021-11-1_18-38-10.png


(3) Most properly and used nearly exclusively in the NT (I can only think of two examples of it not being so and really they might not be true examples at all, it may very well be exclusive), God the Father, who is the Principle without Principle of All (even the other Divine Persons), the Uncaused Cause in the purest sense, "the Only True God."

What you are describing about principles and principles of all and father and uncauses would also be Avodah Zara for Jews. There is no place in the Hebrew Tanakh where what you mentioned is described as such with the exception of warnings against Jews trying assigning such concepts to The Source of Creation.

This issue is actaully addressed in the Tanakh as well as later writings by Rabbi Saadya Gaon in his book (אמונות ודעות) section 8, segment 9 where he explains how the Christian concept and it got started among certain Jews and where their error was. This is also covered in the Moreh Nevuchim, Mishnah Torah, Igereth Teiman, and Torath Hhovoth Levavoth.

The idea is in the Torah and Histories for examples of the lowercase usages. Most is made of the third lowercase usage in the Church Fathers, for St. Peter said we become "partakers in the divine nature," divinization, and so the Fathers and many say:

This is also Avodah Zara for Jews and if this is a concept that came from the Church Fathers it is definately something that would be Avodah Zara. If Peter is the source of it this would also mean that Peter produced this concept from a more Hellonized base of thinking. Thus, a Torah based Jew would distance themselves from Peter if this is what he was teaching to around the Galilee.

There is also all the talk of "God became man so that man might become god," being deified by grace and not a change of nature, and so on, and Origen spoke of how if we follow the Spirit when God comes to us it is "God gathered in the midst of the gods," etc, etc.

This is also a very fundamental element of what The Creator of all things warned Torah based Jews to stay away from. It is actually one of the oldest forms of Avodah Zara that even existed during Avraham ben-Terah's (Abraham) time.

Thus, respectfully, I would have to say that if the concepts you mentioned are the most ancient and authoratitive Christian concepts then Torath Mosheh Jews are closer to athiests than they are Christians.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
I won't argue with your "beleifs." You are free to have them.

I will only present that Torah based Jews won't be convinced to take on your beleifs. (It is not like you need us to have them or take them on anyway. I.e. you gain nothing from a manifesto to us about your beleifs in Christianity.) If you really read the OP that is what I was getting at.
I'm afraid l cannot accept the claim that all 'Torah based Jews' are beyond persuasion.

When Jesus began to preach in Galilee and Judea, two thousand years ago, all the Jews listening to him were 'Torah based Jews'. Were some of these 'Torah based Jews' convinced he was the Holy One of God? Clearly the answer is, Yes, given that all the first Christians were Jewish.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
When Jesus began to preach in Galilee and Judea, two thousand years ago, all the Jews listening to him were 'Torah based Jews'. Were some of these 'Torah based Jews' convinced he was the Holy One of God? Clearly the answer is, Yes, given that all the first Christians were Jewish.

Really, so maybe you can answer a few questions I have been asking on RF for a while but no one has been able to answer.
  1. What Christians today descend from those supposed Jews you are describing?
  2. Can you give me the names of about 100 of them?
  3. Can you provide a description of how they produced techeleth?
  4. Did any of those Jews you are describing wear tefillin? If so, when, where, and what type?
  5. How many of them were Cohenim? How many were Lewyim?
  6. In the year 400 C.E. who were the leaders of these Jews you are describing? What were their names?
  7. Did these Jews you describe happen to have cousins in Berea?
 
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