Why Torah based Jews would be unconvinced

[IndigoChild5559]

Ezekiel 37:24.[KJV]
'And David my servant shall be king over them; and they shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them'.

Ezekiel 37:24. [JPS]
'My servant David shall be king over them; there shall be one shepherd for all of them. They shall follow My rules and faithfully obey my laws'.

So, does God not anoint the king who is to be the 'one shepherd' over lsrael?

And if there is to be 'one shepherd', does this mean that there is one shepherd on earth, and another in heaven?

If David and Ezekiel do not share the same shepherd, it is unlikely that they share the same God, or prophesy with the same Spirit.

And what about God's will and purpose? You've not responded to my earlier question.

I can't seem to make the connection between this new topic and what I said to you before, which was taht "in Israel" doesn't mean "new Christ." Can you please address what I said, instead of going off on some strange tangent that seems to serve no purpose.

Again, you have reached unwarranted conclusions. The fact that David and Ezekiel wrote separate writings, using the same metaphor, about different subjects, has no relationship at all to whether they share the same God. And yes, they share the same God.

I'm fast losing patience with you. If you are not able to muster a modest amount of reasoning ability, it just becomes too frustrating. It feels like every post you send me leaves the rational train of thought for something unrelated, and something that reaches unwarranted conclsuions. So this is what I expect from you in the next post:

1. reply DIRECTLY to my comment that "in Israel" doesn't mean "in Christ -- that you have reached a totally irrational conclusion there.

2. do not open up any new subjects, but stay on track.

 

[dybmh]

The scriptural support is to be found in many places, but here is one worth considering.
Jeremiah 31:31-34.
Here Jeremiah points to a time, in the future, when lsrael and Judah will be under a new covenant, unlike the covenant made at Sinai. The new covenant will be a covenant of the heart, and then 'l will be their God, and they shall be My people'.

There is a coincidence here. The point in time when the houses of Israel and Judah begin the new covenant is also the time that the king comes to rule. The presence of the king in the midst of Israel is also the presence of the Spirit in the hearts of his people. In other words, the anointing on the head, the king, becomes the anointing on his people, the body.

I'm not following your logic. We started with Lev. 25:54, your response was that the spiritual freedom of Jubilee is not another path seperate from Christ because if it's "in Israel" it must be "in Christ". I asked for scripture that supports this, and you went to Jeremiah 31. Either I've misunderstood, or, there's something missing from the explanation.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

In addition to what I posted earlier. I found something very interesting. The first slide below is what I posted earlier, but now look at the second slide.

Thus, if a Jew were to take the advice of the gospel author literally we end up at the following.

And of course what I posted earlier.

 

[rational experiences]

If you say to a human be rational.

Had the huge earth shift water ground lift pre existed? Moses event?

No.

To apply back in olden times pyramid science already abusing natural family to have built technology attacked and sacrificed life.

Seeing you cannot discuss gods causes until it was activated in natural to natural.

Yes historic.

When the sun had big bang blasted earth a long time ago. Human theist wisdom effects. Water flooding saved cooled sealed it. Huge massive water ground lifting mass taken off ground to bare it naked.

Gods body mother earth.

So was mother the earth and was God the earth a father?

No. That is just human talk. Science theist... the planet shifted in evaporation a huge water mass after nuclear ground converting. To think upon to invent nuclear science reasoning.

Just by human design...not gods design.

But the earth was bared naked by water mass lift off? Bared naked in science was about planet earth first.

Yes.

So no human in fact owns a reason to argue a science assessment of what science did to earth life in ancient Egypt technology?

No.

Science never made anyone special was the teaching. Egyptian rich men who migrated into cold countries the origin rich man problem.

The human family slave history was any human a rich man abused in any country. Every nationality.

 

[Redemptionsong]

I can't seem to make the connection between this new topic and what I said to you before, which was taht "in Israel" doesn't mean "new Christ." Can you please address what I said, instead of going off on some strange tangent that seems to serve no purpose.

Again, you have reached unwarranted conclusions. The fact that David and Ezekiel wrote separate writings, using the same metaphor, about different subjects, has no relationship at all to whether they share the same God. And yes, they share the same God.

I'm fast losing patience with you. If you are not able to muster a modest amount of reasoning ability, it just becomes too frustrating. It feels like every post you send me leaves the rational train of thought for something unrelated, and something that reaches unwarranted conclsuions. So this is what I expect from you in the next post:

1. reply DIRECTLY to my comment that "in Israel" doesn't mean "in Christ -- that you have reached a totally irrational conclusion there.

2. do not open up any new subjects, but stay on track.

I'm sorry to hear that you're having difficulty 'connecting the dots'.

Let's start with where the name 'lsrael' originates. It's a name given by God to Jacob, who wrestled all night with an angelic figure at Peniel. It's important to understand the significance of this encounter, and the words used in scripture that explain what happened.

In Genesis 33:28-30, it says, 'And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, l pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.
And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for l have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved'.

This encounter was with the 'face' of God, the Spirit of God, who refused to give his name. Yet, it's this Spirit of God that says that Jacob will be called lsrael because 'as a prince hast thou power with God and with men'.

'A prince' is a term used to portray the Messiah, as it says in Ezekiel 34:24, 'And l the LORD will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the LORD have spoken it'.

The Messiah is also a 'mediator' between God and men. Genesis 33 conveys this well with the words, 'hast thou power with God and with men'.

The name 'lsrael' is not applied consistently to Jacob, and one should question why this does not happen even after the name change. Yet, 'lsrael' as a name is eventually applied to the whole congregation of the twelve tribes. Hence, it can said that there is an individual whose name applies to the whole congregation. The individual 'lsrael' saw God 'face to face', and the congregation who bear the name 'lsrael' also see God 'face to face'. To be saved, as all lsrael will be, it is necessary for all lsrael to know their God 'face to face'.

Can you now begin to see that 'in Israel' there is salvation, but only if one understands that lsrael is a body attached to a head, which is Christ (the 'face' of God).

 

[Redemptionsong]

I'm not following your logic. We started with Lev. 25:54, your response was that the spiritual freedom of Jubilee is not another path seperate from Christ because if it's "in Israel" it must be "in Christ". I asked for scripture that supports this, and you went to Jeremiah 31. Either I've misunderstood, or, there's something missing from the explanation.

If you read what l've written to lndigoChild it will save me repeating myself!

Let me add, that Jeremiah is talking about how lsrael and Judah come to know God 'face to face'. Such an encounter is spiritual, and happens when the heart is reached by God. The outpouring of the Holy Spirit is what happens when repentance and realisation occur in lsrael.

To my understanding, it is only the coming of the Messiah, and the spiritual struggle that results from this encounter, that brings true repentance; and a realisation that the 'face' of God is, in fact, God Himself.

Israel, as Christ, must be 'one' with the body of lsrael, for there to be salvation and redemption.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I'm sorry to hear that you're having difficulty 'connecting the dots'.

Let's start with where the name 'lsrael' originates. It's a name given by God to Jacob, who wrestled all night with an angelic figure at Peniel. It's important to understand the significance of this encounter, and the words used in scripture that explain what happened.

In Genesis 33:28-30, it says, 'And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, l pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.
And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for l have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved'.

This encounter was with the 'face' of God, the Spirit of God, who refused to give his name. Yet, it's this Spirit of God that says that Jacob will be called lsrael because 'as a prince hast thou power with God and with men'.

'A prince' is a term used to portray the Messiah, as it says in Ezekiel 34:24, 'And l the LORD will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the LORD have spoken it'.

The Messiah is also a 'mediator' between God and men. Genesis 33 conveys this well with the words, 'hast thou power with God and with men'.

The name 'lsrael' is not applied consistently to Jacob, and one should question why this does not happen even after the name change. Yet, 'lsrael' as a name is eventually applied to the whole congregation of the twelve tribes. Hence, it can said that there is an individual whose name applies to the whole congregation. The individual 'lsrael' saw God 'face to face', and the congregation who bear the name 'lsrael' also see God 'face to face'. To be saved, as all lsrael will be, it is necessary for all lsrael to know their God 'face to face'.

Can you now begin to see that 'in Israel' there is salvation, but only if one understands that lsrael is a body attached to a head, which is Christ (the 'face' of God).

I'm sorry, but you are just not making your case.

Israel can refer to four things. It can refer to the man, Jacob/Israel. It can refer to the People of Israel. It can refer to the united Kingdom of Israel under David and Solomon. Or it can refer to the Norther Kingdom of israel, after the split.

What it cannot refer to is the Messiah.

 

[rosends]

I'm sorry to hear that you're having difficulty 'connecting the dots'.

Let's start with where the name 'lsrael' originates. It's a name given by God to Jacob, who wrestled all night with an angelic figure at Peniel. It's important to understand the significance of this encounter, and the words used in scripture that explain what happened.

In Genesis 33:28-30, it says, 'And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, l pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.
And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for l have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved'.

This encounter was with the 'face' of God, the Spirit of God, who refused to give his name. Yet, it's this Spirit of God that says that Jacob will be called lsrael because 'as a prince hast thou power with God and with men'.

'A prince' is a term used to portray the Messiah, as it says in Ezekiel 34:24, 'And l the LORD will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the LORD have spoken it'.

The Messiah is also a 'mediator' between God and men. Genesis 33 conveys this well with the words, 'hast thou power with God and with men'.

The name 'lsrael' is not applied consistently to Jacob, and one should question why this does not happen even after the name change. Yet, 'lsrael' as a name is eventually applied to the whole congregation of the twelve tribes. Hence, it can said that there is an individual whose name applies to the whole congregation. The individual 'lsrael' saw God 'face to face', and the congregation who bear the name 'lsrael' also see God 'face to face'. To be saved, as all lsrael will be, it is necessary for all lsrael to know their God 'face to face'.

Can you now begin to see that 'in Israel' there is salvation, but only if one understands that lsrael is a body attached to a head, which is Christ (the 'face' of God).

Wow...this is a mess for so many reasons.

Can we just start with some cleanup in aisle 3?

You mean Genesis 32, not 33.

And the insertion of "prince" in Gen 32:29 is silly. There is no word in the Hebrew that signals that:
וַיֹּ֗אמֶר לֹ֤א יַעֲקֹב֙ יֵאָמֵ֥ר עוֹד֙ שִׁמְךָ֔ כִּ֖י אִם־יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל כִּֽי־שָׂרִ֧יתָ עִם־אֱלֹהִ֛ים וְעִם־אֲנָשִׁ֖ים וַתּוּכָֽל׃
Said he, “Your name shall no longer be Jacob, but Israel, for you have striven with beings divine and human, and have prevailed.”

Whereas the Ezekiel line has a word for prince/chief
וַאֲנִ֣י יְהֹוָ֗ה אֶֽהְיֶ֤ה לָהֶם֙ לֵֽאלֹהִ֔ים וְעַבְדִּ֥י דָוִ֖ד נָשִׂ֣יא בְתוֹכָ֑ם אֲנִ֥י יְהֹוָ֖ה דִּבַּֽרְתִּי׃
I the LORD will be their God, and My servant David shall be a ruler among them—I the LORD have spoken.

so that connection disappears. Also, the Gen 32 verse says nothing about being a mediator. It mentions prevailing over the divine and over man. If you can make prevailing turn into mediation then you misunderstand what mediation is.

And the people don't have to see God face to face because the text says that no man can see God's face and live.
וַיֹּ֕אמֶר לֹ֥א תוּכַ֖ל לִרְאֹ֣ת אֶת־פָּנָ֑י כִּ֛י לֹֽא־יִרְאַ֥נִי הָֽאָדָ֖ם וָחָֽי:

This is one reason why most commentators see the word elohim here as not referring to God, but to an angel of God.

One commentator explains that seeing God's face is a term for prophecy and we know that not every Jew is expected to be a prophet, so demanding that they see God face to face is difficult, though the Radak points out that he revelation at Sinai provided the entire nation a measure of prophecy which can be equated so there you go.

Other commentators point out that the Hebrew phrase for "face to face" is used in Kings II for warfare and why would anyone demand that the nation have a war with God?

 

[Redemptionsong]

I'm sorry, but you are just not making your case.

Israel can refer to four things. It can refer to the man, Jacob/Israel. It can refer to the People of Israel. It can refer to the united Kingdom of Israel under David and Solomon. Or it can refer to the Norther Kingdom of israel, after the split.

What it cannot refer to is the Messiah.

I don't deny the four uses that you've mentioned. But you seem to be overlooking the claims that the people (lsrael) are the Messiah. See lsaiah 42:1-9 and Isaiah 53. Or are these passages not seen as referring to lsrael? Who, in that case, do they refer to?

According to Jeremiah 10:16, lsrael is 'God's tribe'. God is the king, and shepherd, and head, over lsrael.

If you separate the head from the body, what does that do to the relationship between lsrael and God?

 

[dybmh]

If you read what l've written to lndigoChild it will save me repeating myself!

Let me add, that Jeremiah is talking about how lsrael and Judah come to know God 'face to face'. Such an encounter is spiritual, and happens when the heart is reached by God. The outpouring of the Holy Spirit is what happens when repentance and realisation occur in lsrael.

To my understanding, it is only the coming of the Messiah, and the spiritual struggle that results from this encounter, that brings true repentance; and a realisation that the 'face' of God is, in fact, God Himself.

Israel, as Christ, must be 'one' with the body of lsrael, for there to be salvation and redemption.

Nothing here says there's only one way. Remember, this is what is said in the book of John. My objection to the New Covenant is that there is that there are multiple ways. To justify my objection I brought Deut. 5:33 and Lev. 25:54. We can add to the list Hosea 2:21-22 and Hosea 14:10. In chapter 2, 5 ways are listed: Righteousness, Justice, Loving-kindness, Mercy, and Faith. In chapter 14 ( the last verse in the book ) similar to Deut. 5:33, the righteous walk in God's ways **plural**.

If there's more than one way, then Jesus is speaking falsely about God, or his "Father" is not the God of Moses or Hosea.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Wow...this is a mess for so many reasons.

Can we just start with some cleanup in aisle 3?

You mean Genesis 32, not 33.

And the insertion of "prince" in Gen 32:29 is silly. There is no word in the Hebrew that signals that:
וַיֹּ֗אמֶר לֹ֤א יַעֲקֹב֙ יֵאָמֵ֥ר עוֹד֙ שִׁמְךָ֔ כִּ֖י אִם־יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל כִּֽי־שָׂרִ֧יתָ עִם־אֱלֹהִ֛ים וְעִם־אֲנָשִׁ֖ים וַתּוּכָֽל׃
Said he, “Your name shall no longer be Jacob, but Israel, for you have striven with beings divine and human, and have prevailed.”

Whereas the Ezekiel line has a word for prince/chief
וַאֲנִ֣י יְהֹוָ֗ה אֶֽהְיֶ֤ה לָהֶם֙ לֵֽאלֹהִ֔ים וְעַבְדִּ֥י דָוִ֖ד נָשִׂ֣יא בְתוֹכָ֑ם אֲנִ֥י יְהֹוָ֖ה דִּבַּֽרְתִּי׃
I the LORD will be their God, and My servant David shall be a ruler among them—I the LORD have spoken.

so that connection disappears. Also, the Gen 32 verse says nothing about being a mediator. It mentions prevailing over the divine and over man. If you can make prevailing turn into mediation then you misunderstand what mediation is.

And the people don't have to see God face to face because the text says that no man can see God's face and live.
וַיֹּ֕אמֶר לֹ֥א תוּכַ֖ל לִרְאֹ֣ת אֶת־פָּנָ֑י כִּ֛י לֹֽא־יִרְאַ֥נִי הָֽאָדָ֖ם וָחָֽי:

This is one reason why most commentators see the word elohim here as not referring to God, but to an angel of God.

One commentator explains that seeing God's face is a term for prophecy and we know that not every Jew is expected to be a prophet, so demanding that they see God face to face is difficult, though the Radak points out that he revelation at Sinai provided the entire nation a measure of prophecy which can be equated so there you go.

Other commentators point out that the Hebrew phrase for "face to face" is used in Kings II for warfare and why would anyone demand that the nation have a war with God?

In Genesis 32:31, even the place name, Peniel, reflects the drama of this occasion. It is clear that this angel in human form bore the authority of God Himself, which is why the supernatural being is referred to as the 'face' of God. I understand this to be the same Spirit of God that dwells amongst the lsraelites in the wilderness, and who is called 'Christ' in the NT.

In Genesis 32:29 it's the name 'Israel' that suggests 'a prince of God' or 'soldier of God' based on his strength and determination whilst wrestling.

To me the encounter between Jacob and the 'face of God' holds profound truths about our ability to know God, but l get no sense of this in your response. What do you understand Jacob's encounter to be about?

 

[Redemptionsong]

Nothing here says there's only one way. Remember, this is what is said in the book of John. My objection to the New Covenant is that there is that there are multiple ways. To justify my objection I brought Deut. 5:33 and Lev. 25:54. We can add to the list Hosea 2:21-22 and Hosea 14:10. In chapter 2, 5 ways are listed: Righteousness, Justice, Loving-kindness, Mercy, and Faith. In chapter 14 ( the last verse in the book ) again the righteous walk in God's ways **plural**.

Ok, so can you name me one person who has completed the whole law as commanded by God?

 

[dybmh]

Ok, so can you name me one person who has completed the whole law as commanded by God?

This is irrelevant. My objection is that there is more than one way to serve God. I've given 3 examples. Either the book of John is speaking falsely about God ( which would make Jesus a false prophet Jeremiah 14:14 ) or Jesus' "Father" is not the God of Moses and Hosea.

 

[rosends]

In Genesis 32:31, even the place name, Peniel, reflects the drama of this occasion.

A nice literary sentiment. Irrelevant, but nice. Place names biblically were often reflective of events that took place there.

It is clear that this angel in human form bore the authority of God Himself, which is why the supernatural being is referred to as the 'face' of God. I understand this to be the same Spirit of God that dwells amongst the lsraelites in the wilderness, and who is called 'Christ' in the NT.

Great. It is nice to have your own interpretation. Of course, it is just that, yours, and no one else need be convinced by your particular thoughts on the atter, hence the topic of this thread.

In Genesis 32:29 it's the name 'Israel' that suggests 'a prince of God' or 'soldier of God' based on his strength and determination whilst wrestling.

It suggests no such thing (and the intellectual dishonesty of presenting a transation with the word inserted should not be ignored). It says what it says. Making fanciful derivations and such from it is more literary fancifulness driven by a need to connect the text to another verse, and not anything steeped in the text.

To me the encounter between Jacob and the 'face of God' holds profound truths about our ability to know God, but l get no sense of this in your response. What do you understand Jacob's encounter to be about?

There is incredible significance to this encounter but I will just point out the most superficial - Jacob's name has a root which is tied to trickery or deception. By changing the name, the public statement is made that no one should ever suspect that the one based in trickery stole any blessings as the recipient is a different person via the name change. There is, of course, a lot more, but about our ability to know God? I'm not sure what you mean. We do learn a lot about the nature of angels in the passage.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

One cannot hope to understand scripture if one doesn't believe in God's existence.

If you believe in God's existence, and believe that the Bible, or at least the Hebrew Bible, is the word of God, then one has to view the contents differently from human writings. God must have a purpose in revealing his will to mankind.

What do you think God's will and purpose is?

What if God tells me that the Bible isn’t true?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I don't deny the four uses that you've mentioned. But you seem to be overlooking the claims that the people (lsrael) are the Messiah. See lsaiah 42:1-9 and Isaiah 53. Or are these passages not seen as referring to lsrael? Who, in that case, do they refer to?

According to Jeremiah 10:16, lsrael is 'God's tribe'. God is the king, and shepherd, and head, over lsrael.

If you separate the head from the body, what does that do to the relationship between lsrael and God?

If you talk about messiah in general, messiah meaning anointed, there are many messiahs. Kings, high priests, prophets, all get anointed. Cyrus is refered to as a messiah for allowing the People to return to the land.

I cannot for the life of me recall any verse where Israel is referred to as anointed. Anointed always seems to refer to individuals.

But we aren't talking about must any messiah are we? We are talking about the Messiah that will rule Israel during the messianic era, when nation shall not make war upon nation.

And Israel is certainly not THAT messiah. So let's be very clear.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I don't deny the four uses that you've mentioned. But you seem to be overlooking the claims that the people (lsrael) are the Messiah. See lsaiah 42:1-9 and Isaiah 53. Or are these passages not seen as referring to lsrael? Who, in that case, do they refer to?

According to Jeremiah 10:16, lsrael is 'God's tribe'. God is the king, and shepherd, and head, over lsrael.

If you separate the head from the body, what does that do to the relationship between lsrael and God?

Sorry, but none of these scriptural passages refers to Israel as annointed. The fact that Israel is a nation of priests, that it has a special relationship with Hashem, does not make it anointed, and *certainly* doesn't make it THE messiah, which is an individual.

 

[Redemptionsong]

This is irrelevant. My objection is that there is more than one way to serve God. I've given 3 examples. Either the book of John is speaking falsely about God ( which would make Jesus a false prophet Jeremiah 14:14 ) or Jesus' "Father" is not the God of Moses and Hosea.

There is only one (eternal) Saviour in scripture, and that is God.

You are claiming, by suggesting there are many ways to God, that there is more than one saviour, and more than one truth.

I reject this on the grounds that, if there is only one God, there can only be one truth!

 

[dybmh]

There is only one (eternal) Saviour in scripture, and that is God.

You are claiming, by suggesting there are many ways to God, that there is more than one saviour, and more than one truth.

I reject this on the grounds that, if there is only one God, there can only be one truth!

My claim is there is more than 1 way to serve God. 1 God, 1 savior, at least more than 1 way to serve.

You can add King Solomon to the list of those that claim multiple ways: Proverbs 21:3. Here he lists three ways, righteousness and justice and sacrifices.

Thus, Moses, Hosea, and King Solomon support my position.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Sorry, but none of these scriptural passages refers to Israel as annointed. The fact that Israel is a nation of priests, that it has a special relationship with Hashem, does not make it anointed, and *certainly* doesn't make it THE messiah, which is an individual.

Well, at least we've cleared up that you think the Messiah is an individual, anointed with God's Spirit. Am l to conclude that you believe lsaiah 61:1-3 is the voice of the Messiah?