Why Torah based Jews would be unconvinced

[IndigoChild5559]

How is this not changing the law? It abolished part of Jubilee!

Matthew 5:18?

Jubilee is for those religious Jews that live in the land of Israel. It has not been abolished. The last time there was a jubilee year in israel it was the Jewish year that fell on 2017-2018.

 

[Rival]

Jubilee is for those religious Jews that live in the land of Israel. It has not been abolished. The last time there was a jubilee year in israel it was the Jewish year that fell on 2017-2018.

I think you're mistaking what Dybmh is saying.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I think you're mistaking what Dybmh is saying.

Could you explain?

 

[Rival]

Could you explain?

He was arguing that Jesus did change the law in a way Redemptionsong said he didn't, but Dybmh obviously isn't a Christian. He's just saying that Redemptionsong is wrong about his own guy/beliefs.

 

[Redemptionsong]

I went through 22 and don't see any mention of a servant. Can you please let me know what translation you are using and what verse mentions a servant? TIA

No, the word 'servant' is not used in the text but the whole Psalm, l believe, refers to the 'suffering servant'. One cannot claim that the individual about which this Psalm speaks, is not experiencing suffering. The question that divides, is whether the individual is Christ, or some other person.

 

[Redemptionsong]

How is this not changing the law? It abolished part of Jubilee!

Matthew 5:18?

Which part was abolished?

 

[rosends]

No, the word 'servant' is not used in the text but the whole Psalm, l believe, refers to the 'suffering servant'. One cannot claim that the individual about which this Psalm speaks, is not experiencing suffering. The question that divides, is whether the individual is Christ, or some other person.

OK, so "you believe" is the operative statement. This is a function of your belief, not the text. If I told you that there are those that believe that the text speaks of Esther fronm the Purim story, would that be persuasive to you?

 

[Redemptionsong]

OK, so "you believe" is the operative statement. This is a function of your belief, not the text. If I told you that there are those that believe that the text speaks of Esther fronm the Purim story, would that be persuasive to you?

My belief is not without evidence. You have chosen not to believe the NT scriptures, but in them we have the words 'Eli, Eli, lama sabbachthani' spoken by Jesus from the cross, which are translated as, 'My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?'

Why would Jesus, in his dying moments choose to refer people to Psalm 22?

The wider context of the Psalms can also be seen as evidence. Psalm 22 tells us of a soul that relies on the LORD for life, as it says [verse 29] 'all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul'.

Psalm 23 tells us about resurrection. 'He restoreth my soul:'.

Psalm 24 tells us about ascension. 'Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD?'

Then, we can begin to add other scriptures that tell us about the same events. Isaiah 53 speaks of 'him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted'.

Zechariah 13:7, says, 'Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn my hand upon the little ones'.

I could go on. But what evidence do you have to support the interpretation that Psalm 22 speaks about Esther?

 

[rosends]

My belief is not without evidence. You have chosen not to believe the NT scriptures, but in them we have the words 'Eli, Eli, lama sabbachthani' spoken by Jesus from the cross, which are translated as, 'My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?'

Why would Jesus, in his dying moments choose to refer people to Psalm 22?

The wider context of the Psalms can also be seen as evidence. Psalm 22 tells us of a soul that relies on the LORD for life, as it says [verse 29] 'all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul'.

Psalm 23 tells us about resurrection. 'He restoreth my soul:'.

Psalm 24 tells us about ascension. 'Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD?'

Then, we can begin to add other scriptures that tell us about the same events. Isaiah 53 speaks of 'him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted'.

Zechariah 13:7, says, 'Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn my hand upon the little ones'.

I could go on. But what evidence do you have to support the interpretation that Psalm 22 speaks about Esther?

So you have no evidence -- you have a chain of statements from which you choose to draw a conclusion. Picking individual statements in order to support a conclusion you seek is not really a trustworthy method of creating meaning. If you start with an agenda and (mis)interpret quotes to conform and relate, you will end up justifying your own intended conclusion. Have fun with that.

 

[Redemptionsong]

So you have no evidence -- you have a chain of statements from which you choose to draw a conclusion. Picking individual statements in order to support a conclusion you seek is not really a trustworthy method of creating meaning. If you start with an agenda and (mis)interpret quotes to conform and relate, you will end up justifying your own intended conclusion. Have fun with that.

Truth is an unbroken scripture. I aim to show, from scripture (my evidence), that Christ is the focus of everything that God reveals. I expect you to do the same, as a way of convincing me that Esther is the subject of Psalm 22.

 

[rosends]

Truth is an unbroken scripture. I aim to show, from scripture (my evidence), that Christ is the focus of everything that God reveals. I expect you to do the same, as a way of convincing me that Esther is the subject of Psalm 22.

Well, the obligation isn't on me, but you might want to read Mas Megillah 15b, and the Ein Yaakov medrash
כה "לַמְנַצֵּחַ עַל אַיֶּלֶת הַשַּׁחַר" (תהילים כ״ב:א׳). מָה אַיָּלָה זוֹ קַרְנֶיהָ מְפֻצָּלוֹת לְכָאן וּלְכָאן, אַף שַׁחַר זֶה (מפציל) [מַפְצִיעַ] לְכָאן וּלְכָאן. אָמַר רַבִּי זֵירָא: לָמָּה נִמְשְׁלָה אֶסְתֵּר לְאַיָּלָה? לוֹמַר לְךָ: מָה אַיָּלָה זוֹ, רַחְמָהּ צַר וַחֲבִיבָה עַל בַּעְלָהּ כָּל שָׁעָה וְשָׁעָה כְּשָׁעָה רִאשׁוֹנָה, אַף אֶסְתֵּר הָיְתָה חֲבִיבָה עַל אֲחַשְׁוֵרוֹשׁ כָּל שָׁעָה וְשָׁעָה כְּשָׁעָה רִאשׁוֹנָה. אָמַר רַבִּי אַסִי: לָמָּה נִמְשְׁלָה אֶסְתֵּר לְשַׁחַר? לוֹמַר לְךָ: מַה שַּׁחַר סוֹף כָּל הַלַּיְלָה, אַף אֶסְתֵּר סוֹף כָּל הַנִּסִּים (כולם). וְהָא אִיכָּא חֲנֻכָּה? נִתְּנָה לִכָּתֵב קָא אֲמִינָא.

 

[dybmh]

Which part was abolished?

The part where all captives are freed.

Those who are captives in sin are set free through faith in Christ Jesus.

Here ^^ only those with faith are freed. It's a totally different intention. Remember Lev. 25:54: The captive and their family are freed without conditions.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Well, the obligation isn't on me, but you might want to read Mas Megillah 15b, and the Ein Yaakov medrash
כה "לַמְנַצֵּחַ עַל אַיֶּלֶת הַשַּׁחַר" (תהילים כ״ב:א׳). מָה אַיָּלָה זוֹ קַרְנֶיהָ מְפֻצָּלוֹת לְכָאן וּלְכָאן, אַף שַׁחַר זֶה (מפציל) [מַפְצִיעַ] לְכָאן וּלְכָאן. אָמַר רַבִּי זֵירָא: לָמָּה נִמְשְׁלָה אֶסְתֵּר לְאַיָּלָה? לוֹמַר לְךָ: מָה אַיָּלָה זוֹ, רַחְמָהּ צַר וַחֲבִיבָה עַל בַּעְלָהּ כָּל שָׁעָה וְשָׁעָה כְּשָׁעָה רִאשׁוֹנָה, אַף אֶסְתֵּר הָיְתָה חֲבִיבָה עַל אֲחַשְׁוֵרוֹשׁ כָּל שָׁעָה וְשָׁעָה כְּשָׁעָה רִאשׁוֹנָה. אָמַר רַבִּי אַסִי: לָמָּה נִמְשְׁלָה אֶסְתֵּר לְשַׁחַר? לוֹמַר לְךָ: מַה שַּׁחַר סוֹף כָּל הַלַּיְלָה, אַף אֶסְתֵּר סוֹף כָּל הַנִּסִּים (כולם). וְהָא אִיכָּא חֲנֻכָּה? נִתְּנָה לִכָּתֵב קָא אֲמִינָא.

I can understand why the Gemara might apply these verses to Esther, but like many other rabbinic explanations, the earthly explanation is superseded by the eternal explanation, which is Christ.

As it says in Psalm 35:17, 'Lord, how long wilt thou look on? rescue my soul from their destructions, my darling from the lions'.

As I understand, the word that is translated as 'darling' is 'yachiyd', which can also mean 'beloved' or 'only child'. It is highly unlikely that a prophecy in the Psalms (most of which were written between the time of David and the time of Hezekiah) would make Esther (representing a period of about twenty years, 484-465 BCE) the subject matter.

 

[Redemptionsong]

The part where all captives are freed.



Here ^^ only those with faith are freed. It's a totally different intention. Remember Lev. 25:54: The captive and their family are freed without conditions.

All captives in Israel, you mean. 'In Israel' means 'in Christ'.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

No, the word 'servant' is not used in the text but the whole Psalm, l believe, refers to the 'suffering servant'. One cannot claim that the individual about which this Psalm speaks, is not experiencing suffering. The question that divides, is whether the individual is Christ, or some other person.

It doesn't describe a suffering servant just because you subjectively think it does. You have to actually document your case.

 

[Redemptionsong]

It doesn't describe a suffering servant just because you subjectively think it does. You have to actually document your case.

The case has been well documented.

The individual is crying unto God for his salvation: 'O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent'.

The individual is surrounded by his enemies: 'All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, and shake the head, saying He trusted in the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.' [Matthew 27:42,43]

The individual is suffering physical pain, unto death: 'My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.'

What is the outcome of all this suffering?: 'A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation. They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this'.

Matthew 1:1. 'The book of the generation of Jesus Christ..'

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The case has been well documented.

The individual is crying unto God for his salvation: 'O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent'.

The individual is surrounded by his enemies: 'All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, and shake the head, saying He trusted in the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.' [Matthew 27:42,43]

The individual is suffering physical pain, unto death: 'My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.'

What is the outcome of all this suffering?: 'A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation. They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this'.

Matthew 1:1. 'The book of the generation of Jesus Christ..'

The problem is that people suffer all the time, and it doesn't mean they are the suffering servant of Isaiah 53. The prophets suffer, the psalmists suffer. It doesn't make them the suf

The case has been well documented.

The individual is crying unto God for his salvation: 'O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent'.

The individual is surrounded by his enemies: 'All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, and shake the head, saying He trusted in the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.' [Matthew 27:42,43]

The individual is suffering physical pain, unto death: 'My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.'

What is the outcome of all this suffering?: 'A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation. They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this'.

Matthew 1:1. 'The book of the generation of Jesus Christ..'

Psalm 22 is a psalm of David. This means that the person suffering in these verses is King David. NOT the suffering servant of Isaiah 53. You see here is the problem -- people all over the world suffer. Prophets suffer. Psalmists suffer. That does NOT make them the suffering servant of Isaiah 53.

You have failed to provide any evidence of the suffering servant in Pslam 22.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Below is a family tree of the Tzelahh family from Yemen that goes from Ya'aqov (Jacob) into the 1500's.

And kings everywhere proved that they were descended from gods.

 

[rosends]

I can understand why the Gemara might apply these verses to Esther, but like many other rabbinic explanations, the earthly explanation is superseded by the eternal explanation, which is Christ.

Ah, so your belief/interpretation wins because you have the "eternal explanation" which is proven correct because Jesus matters which is proven correct because you understand these verses in a particular way. No, that's not circular or self-serving at all...

As it says in Psalm 35:17, 'Lord, how long wilt thou look on? rescue my soul from their destructions, my darling from the lions'.

As I understand, the word that is translated as 'darling' is 'yachiyd', which can also mean 'beloved' or 'only child'. It is highly unlikely that a prophecy in the Psalms (most of which were written between the time of David and the time of Hezekiah) would make Esther (representing a period of about twenty years, 484-465 BCE) the subject matter.

The word is yechidati which means "my singular one" and it parallels the noun "soul" in the first phrase. It is highly unlikely that the phrase would shift focus mid-verse. (as Rashi writes, "This refers to “Return my soul.” Return my only one from young lions.")

"O Lord, how long will You look on? Return my soul from their darkness, my only one from young lions."

But, of course, we are now talking about Psalm 35 and not psalm 22 which is what I presented information on. If you keep switching what you are talking about, no one will be able to follow anything you say.

 

[Redemptionsong]

The problem is that people suffer all the time, and it doesn't mean they are the suffering servant of Isaiah 53. The prophets suffer, the psalmists suffer. It doesn't make them the suf

Psalm 22 is a psalm of David. This means that the person suffering in these verses is King David. NOT the suffering servant of Isaiah 53. You see here is the problem -- people all over the world suffer. Prophets suffer. Psalmists suffer. That does NOT make them the suffering servant of Isaiah 53.

You have failed to provide any evidence of the suffering servant in Pslam 22.

One cannot hope to understand scripture if one doesn't believe in God's existence.

If you believe in God's existence, and believe that the Bible, or at least the Hebrew Bible, is the word of God, then one has to view the contents differently from human writings. God must have a purpose in revealing his will to mankind.

What do you think God's will and purpose is?