Why Torah based Jews would be unconvinced

[Link]

Ok, but what you are failing to say here is what the anointing is. When scripture says, 'the Spirit of the LORD was upon...' it means that God has anointed a person with his Holy Spirit. The outward use of oil is simply the symbolism. The reality is the inner illumination of God's Word to man's spirit and soul.

If you do not believe that the Messiah is more than a human king, then you, too, condemn yourself to a sinful imposter!

Jesus (a) is yet to play the role of the Messiah predicted as in the one who will rule the world from the offspring of David (a). This is why he's coming back.

The Mahdi (a) for example in Islam, is alive and on earth, but he hasn't fulfilled the promises regarding him by the Prophet (a).

A more fruitful discussion, would be, are the Gospels from God or not? If they are from God, then he is a Prophet and his words about himself are true. If not, then he isn't.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

This is something you have to know. An illiterate person may understand the Quran better then a person who studied it their whole lives in details and knowing the nuances of eloquence etc. This is because the nature of guidance and impact on the heart, is not about how you know of details, but it's rather a light God casts to the heart of who he pleases.

That's what you say, but I have read a few of the threads you have started and there seems to be a good number of people on RF who were confused by what you were stating about your beleifs. I bring into evidence the following.

Evidence of magic upon the Quran.

The ontological argument (not debating just showing a understanding of it)

The proof of Islam (in theory)

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Isaiah 61 mixes the coming of the 'suffering servant' with the coming of the king. The 'suffering servant' is sent to free the prisoners, whilst the king returns to bring judgement and the covenant of peace. What you are quoting in verse 7 is the land during the millennium of peace.

Your final paragraph is not clear to me. How does this disprove that Christ is the fulfilment of the law? IMO, whether it's the Jubilee, or some other aspect of the Law, all find their fulfilment in Christ.

There is no mixing of the suffering servant (Israel) with the king (messiah). They are completely different things.

If I believe in Jesus, but do not as a Jew obey the Law, there is something seriously wrong.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Ok, but what you are failing to say here is what the anointing is. When scripture says, 'the Spirit of the LORD was upon...' it means that God has anointed a person with his Holy Spirit. The outward use of oil is simply the symbolism. The reality is the inner illumination of God's Word to man's spirit and soul.

If you do not believe that the Messiah is more than a human king, then you, too, condemn yourself to a sinful imposter!

Annointing simply consecrates. The verse about "the spirit of the LORD is upon me" is Isaiah talking -- the spirit of the LORD guides the prophets.

 

[Link]

That's what you say, but I have read a few of the threads you have started and there seems to be a good number of people on RF who were confused by what you were stating about your beleifs. I bring into evidence the following.

Evidence of magic upon the Quran.

The ontological argument (not debating just showing a understanding of it)

The proof of Islam (in theory)

The nature of magic is confusing because people don't know it's nature. Ontological argument seems to good to be true.

However, I don't see the point you are making with what I stated in the quote.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

The nature of magic is confusing because people don't know it's nature. Ontological argument seems to good to be true.

However, I don't see the point you are making with what I stated in the quote.

I wasn't asking you to explain the Islamic concept about magic. I was showing just a few threads where you posted something and confused most of the people who read it.

 

[Link]

I wasn't asking you to explain the Islamic concept about magic. I was showing just a few threads where you posted something and confused most of the people who read it.

Okay, and what's the relevance with this thread and what I posted and you quoted?

 

[Link]

And sorcery on all holy books is something Quran said occurred. The counter to sorcery pertaining to clarify holy books has always been seen only by a few. Inshallah one day most humanity sees the holy books as they are meant to be seen for in there is God's Grand Name.

And I pray we don't fail the final tests and don't do as the people of Noah did with him. Noah was meant to be comfort and was mercy from God, but it resulted in punishment of his people.

We await the days and fear the days and hope the days of God all at the same time.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Jesus (a) is yet to play the role of the Messiah predicted as in the one who will rule the world from the offspring of David (a). This is why he's coming back.

The Mahdi (a) for example in Islam, is alive and on earth, but he hasn't fulfilled the promises regarding him by the Prophet (a).

A more fruitful discussion, would be, are the Gospels from God or not? If they are from God, then he is a Prophet and his words about himself are true. If not, then he isn't.

This is not true for Christians. The Kingdom, during the Church Age, is an invisible, heavenly kingdom, and its citizens are those 'born again' into that kingdom through faith in Jesus Christ.

This is why the body of Christ is referred to as a spiritual house, with Christ Himself as the cornerstone.

1 Peter 2:5. 'Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ'.

 

[dybmh]

But where does the Law state that the Jubilee is to be understood spiritually? To my understanding, under the Law the Jubilee is about slaves being freed from their enslavement every 50 years. It has nothing to do with sin enslaving a man's soul.

If I recall, this is described in the book of Enoch.

 

[Redemptionsong]

There is no mixing of the suffering servant (Israel) with the king (messiah). They are completely different things.

If I believe in Jesus, but do not as a Jew obey the Law, there is something seriously wrong.

They are two different roles, but in prophecy the two often appear next to each other in the text.

The purpose of the 'suffering servant' is to die to take away sin. Did the tribes called 'lsrael' do that?

The purpose of the king is to rule justly over lsrael, and bring peace to the world. Can this be accomplished without the 'suffering servant' first taking away the sin in lsrael?

 

[Redemptionsong]

If I recall, this is described in the book of Enoch.

Then it is not in the Law.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Okay, and what's the relevance with this thread and what I posted and you quoted?

Read your comment that I was responding to. The answers are there.

 

[dybmh]

Then it is not in the Law.

Lev 25:47 describes a poor jew who sells himself to a stranger, I propose that "sells himself to a stranger" has a double meaning. What's wrong with that?
Lev 25:54 says the poor jew from verse 47 is redeemed on Jubilee even if all other forms of redepmtion are not applicable.

Are you claiming that verses in Torah do not sometimes have double meanings: a simple meaning, and a deeper meaning?

BTW: the refrence to a spiritual meaning to Jubilee comes from one of the Qumran scrolls. Sorry that I remembered it wrong: 11Q13 - Wikipedia

 

[IndigoChild5559]

They are two different roles, but in prophecy the two often appear next to each other in the text.

The purpose of the 'suffering servant' is to die to take away sin. Did the tribes called 'lsrael' do that?

The purpose of the king is to rule justly over lsrael, and bring peace to the world. Can this be accomplished without the 'suffering servant' first taking away the sin in lsrael?

The only place the suffering servant is described is Isaiah 53, and it is clearly talking about Israel, not the messiah.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Lev 25:47 describes a poor jew who sells himself to a stranger, I propose that "sells himself to a stranger" has a double meaning. What's wrong with that?
Lev 25:54 says the poor jew from verse 47 is redeemed on Jubilee even if all other forms of redepmtion are not applicable.

Are you claiming that verses in Torah do not sometimes have double meanings: a simple meaning, and a deeper meaning?

BTW: the refrence to a spiritual meaning to Jubilee comes from one of the Qumran scrolls. Sorry that I remembered it wrong: 11Q13 - Wikipedia

I share the belief in double meaning, as l believe all scripture is a parable. Nevertheless, when approaching the Law, the commandment from God, via Moses, is that the whole law must be done by the children of lsrael. This lays responsibility for the doing on the shoulders of men, not God. In contrast, the fulfilling of the law spiritually is done by God, for man cannot accomplish such deeds without the eternal qualities possessed by God.

The Jubilee is done by the children of Israel in a literal manner. The slaves are set free.

The Jubilee is done by God in a spiritual manner. Those who are captives in sin are set free through faith in Christ Jesus.

 

[Redemptionsong]

The only place the suffering servant is described is Isaiah 53, and it is clearly talking about Israel, not the messiah.

That's just not true. Isaiah 11 and lsaiah 61 are other examples. Psalm 22 also speaks of the 'suffering servant'. Do you think Psalm 22 is about lsrael, the people?

 

[rosends]

That's just not true. Isaiah 11 and lsaiah 61 are other examples. Psalm 22 also speaks of the 'suffering servant'. Do you think Psalm 22 is about lsrael, the people?

I went through 22 and don't see any mention of a servant. Can you please let me know what translation you are using and what verse mentions a servant? TIA

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I went through 22 and don't see any mention of a servant. Can you please let me know what translation you are using and what verse mentions a servant? TIA

Exactlyh what verses in those chapters do you think refer to a suffering servant? I see none.

 

[dybmh]

The Jubilee is done by God in a spiritual manner. Those who are captives in sin are set free through faith in Christ Jesus.

How is this not changing the law? It abolished part of Jubilee!

Matthew 5:18?