Why the NT is Historically and Theologically not acceptable for Torath Mosheh Jews

[Skywalker]

So you don't understand Jewish commentary. Big shock.
Next?

There are helpful truths in extra biblical material without doubt. Not all of those bits should build our understanding-some are deviations from scripture.The book of Enoch mentioning a day is a thousand years has helped rabbis in their exegesis of the Torah, but it is a mixture of truth and error. I believe the rabbis were right when they said that God died for every single person, but that doesn't mean I agree with all their interpretations of who the Messiah is. Should Enoch Be Included In The Bible? | Reasons for Jesus

By Steven Bancarz| One of the most common questions I have seen since coming to Christ is the question of whether or not Enoch should be included in the Bible. The short answer to this is that Enoch is not Scripture and was never considered to be on the same level of Scripture historically by any Christian institution other than the Ethiopian Orthodox church of 1959.

But wasn’t the Book of Enoch quoted from in Jude of the New Testament? While it is true Jude quoted from Enoch in Jude 14-15, all this means is that what Enoch said in that particular passage is true.

It doesn’t mean the entire book is divinely inspired, but it does mean that at least that quote by Enoch was true. Just because something is true does not necessarily mean it is inspired by God. History books are true but are not inspired by God. Paul quotes a greek poet named Epimenides in Titus 1:12 but that does not mean that Epimenides was inspired by God.

 

[rosends]

There are helpful truths in extra biblical material without doubt. Not all of those bits should build our understanding-some are deviations from scripture.The book of Enoch mentioning a day is a thousand years has helped rabbis in their exegesis of the Torah, but it is a mixture of truth and error. I believe the rabbis were right when they said that God died for every single person, but that doesn't mean I agree with all their interpretations of who the Messiah is. Should Enoch Be Included In The Bible? | Reasons for Jesus

Even when you are right you are wrong.
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[dybmh]

I understand my questions are bothersome, but if you are an adherent to the Rabbinic Movement, then you are able to confirm the presence or lack of specific sets of traditions within the Rabbinic movement.

"if you are ... then you are ..." --- rude.

Does the Rabbinic Movement have any traditions regarding Satan/Lucifer/Devil and what he was doing before the world was created?
Does the Rabbinic Movement have any traditions regarding the motives and process by which Satan/Lucifer/the Devil became ill-disposed toward Adam or God or others?
Does the Rabbinic Movement have any traditions regarding what the Messiah was doing before the world was created?
Does the Rabbinic Movement have any traditions regarding Adams spirit and it's condition before being placed into the Garden of Eden?
Does the Rabbinic Movement have any traditions regarding Gods motives in both planning and executing his plan to create an earth and populate it with mankind.
Does the Rabbinic Movement have any traditions regarding the nature of the place where God resides before the creation of the earth?
Does the Rabbinic Movement have any traditions regarding the nature of spirits within mankind before the creation of the earth?

See here: Legends of the Jews

 

[Skywalker]

So you don't understand Jewish commentary. Big shock.
Next?

Rabbis believed that the Messiah was the Suffering Servant but they changed their beliefs because of the mistakes of the church. People confuse the sinful nature of human beings with who God is, dying for his creation. God became the Suffering Servant to remove the barrier of sin from between people and God. The Catholic Church is a denomination that follows the tradition of men rather than the Word of God, just like the teachings of rabbis that rejected Jesus being the Messiah. The Suffering Servant of Isaiah – A Rabbinic Anthology | Jewish Awareness Ministries

Rabbi Moshe ben Nachman (Nachmanides) who lived in thirteenth century Spain was one of the greatest defenders of the Jewish faith against attack of Catholic theologians. Note his statement concerning the Suffering Servant: “The right view respecting this portion is to suppose that by the phrase ‘my servant’ the whole of Israel is meant….As a different opinion, however, is adopted by the Midrash, which refers it to the Messiah, it is necessary for us to explain it in conformity with the view there maintained. The prophet says, The Messiah, the son of David of whom the text speaks, will never be conquered or perish by the hands of his enemies. And, in fact the text teaches this clearly….’And by his stripes we were healed’ — because the stripes by which he is vexed and distressed will heal us; God will pardon us for his righteousness, and we shall be healed both from our own transgressions and from the iniquities of our fathers.”[9]

 

[Skywalker]

Even when you are right you are wrong.
Next?

The only one we can trust is God, not the opinions of people. I believe in going to church to wear the Word of God, not to be a follower of the pastor.

 

[rosends]

Rabbis believed that the Messiah was the Suffering Servant but they changed their beliefs because of the mistakes of the church. People confuse the sinful nature of human beings with who God is, dying for his creation. God became the Suffering Servant to remove the barrier of sin from between people and God. The Catholic Church is a denomination that follows the tradition of men rather than the Word of God, just like the teachings of rabbis that rejected Jesus being the Messiah. The Suffering Servant of Isaiah – A Rabbinic Anthology | Jewish Awareness Ministries

No, they didn't.
No they don't.
No He didn't.
Who cares about the church?
Next?

 

[rosends]

The only one we can trust is God, not the opinions of people. I believe in going to church to wear the Word of God, not to be a follower of the pastor.

No wonder no one trusts you.
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[Skywalker]

No wonder no one trusts you.
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God gave us spiritual leaders because of are supposed to be in a community of like minded people helping each other out but that doesn't mean that we are not to question what our spiritual leaders say, because they are human beings who make mistakes like everyone else.

 

[rosends]

God gave us spiritual leaders because of are supposed to be in a community of like minded people helping each other out but that doesn't mean that we are not to question what our spiritual leaders say, because they are human beings who make mistakes like everyone else.

And so?
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[Skywalker]

No, they didn't.
No they don't.
No He didn't.
Who cares about the church?
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People confuse the sinful nature of human beings with who God is, dying for his creation, because some rabbis changed their belief that the Suffering Servant is the Messiah due to the church persecuting Jewish people. People used church for their political agenda but Jesus never condoned such conduct.

 

[rosends]

People confuse the sinful nature of human beings with who God is, dying for his creation, because some rabbis changed their belief that the Suffering Servant is the Messiah due to the church persecuting Jewish people. People used church for their political agenda but Jesus never condoned such conduct.

God doesn't die.
No they didn't.
Who cares about Jesus?
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[Skywalker]

God doesn't die.
No they didn't.
Who cares about Jesus?
Next?

God died on the cross for our sins because He does not want to be separated from His creation. Sin is a barrier that exists that separates people from God and Jesus died to remove the barrier of sin from between people and God, not just that we could be forgiven but also that we could come before God. Jesus has nothing to do with the church persecuting Jewish people. Jesus talked to everyone with kindness and respect.

 

[Skywalker]

Maybe as far Christians are concerned but not for Torath Mosheh Jews. Besides, if did you would have answered the historical questions I presented in previous threads a long time ago.

Mithraism came after Christianity. If anything, MIthraism copied Christianity, not the other way around. 22 Reasons All Scholars Agree Jesus Is Not A Copy Of Pagan Gods | Reasons for Jesus

Professor Mettinger of Lund University, and the majority of other scholars in the relevant fields, hold that there were no dying and rising gods before Christ, or before the advent of Christianity in the early 1st century: “The consensus among modern scholars — nearly universal — is that there were no dying and rising gods that preceded Christianity. They all post-dated the first century.” Mettinger goes on to say that: “The references to a resurrection of Adonis have been dated mainly to the Christian Era.”

Scholar Edwin Yamauchi writes that: “the supposed resurrection of Attis doesn’t appear until after AD 150.” And in the case of Mithra, professor Ronald Nash himself opines that: “Mithraism flowered after Christianity, not before, so Christianity could not have copied from Mithraism. The timing is all wrong to have influenced the development of first-century Christianity.”

 

[rosends]

God died on the cross for our sins because He does not want to be separated from His creation. Sin is a barrier that exists that separates people from God and Jesus died to remove the barrier of sin from between people and God, not just that we could be forgiven but also that we could come before God. Jesus has nothing to do with the church persecuting Jewish people. Jesus talked to everyone with kindness and respect.

No he didn't.
No he didn't.
Who cares about Jesus?
Next?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Mithraism came after Christianity. If anything, MIthraism copied Christianity, not the other way around.

Oh, so you do have a standard for what you consider correct forms of Christianity and what is not. Thank you for being the 3rd person to prove out the OP.

It is interesting that you jump to a comparison between Christianity and Mithraism. So, the you are saying the NT authors inspired Mithraism. Interesting. I think you are helping me further know why Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jews should stay away from both.

 

[Skywalker]

As it happens, most Jews and secular researchers agree that Jesus really existed. Most also agree that the Jesus presented in the NT is a mythic character comprised of Christian traditions about the real Jesus and traditions, myths and theological views that evolved decades later.

The Jesus of the New Testament is not a mythic character. The apostles were real people who lived with Christ. What did they have to gain by saying that they saw the risen Christ? They were persecuted for what they believed. Historians in those times would have gotten in trouble if they didn't write information that was accurate. Watergate and the Resurrection - BreakPoint

Indeed, as Paul writes in 1 Corinthians, the historical fact of Christ’s resurrection is the only basis of our hope. Without the resurrection, our faith is futile. This is why critics of Christianity often try to explain away the empty tomb. They claim that the disciples lied–that they stole Jesus’s body themselves and conspired together to pretend He had risen. The apostles then managed somehow to recruit more than 500 other people to lie for them as well, to say they saw Jesus after He rose from the dead.

But just how plausible is this theory?

To answer that question, fast forward nearly 2,000 years, to an event I happen to know a lot about: Watergate. You see, before all the facts about Watergate were known to the public–in March 1973–it was becoming clear to Nixon’s closest aides that someone had tried to cover up the Watergate break-in.

There were no more than a dozen of us. Could we maintain a cover-up–to save the president? Consider that we were political zealots. We enjoyed enormous political power and prestige. With all that at stake, you’d expect us to be capable of maintaining a lie to protect the president.

But we couldn’t do it. The first to crack was John Dean. First, he told the president everything, and then just two weeks later he went to the prosecutors and offered to testify against the President. His reason, as he candidly admits in his memoirs, was to “save his own skin.” After that, everyone started scrambling to protect himself. What we know today as the great Watergate cover-up lasted only three weeks. Some of the most powerful politicians in the world–and we couldn’t keep a lie for more than three weeks.

So back to the question of historicity of Christ’s resurrection. Can anyone believe that for fifty years that Jesus’ disciples were willing to be ostracized, beaten, persecuted, and all but one of them suffer a martyr’s death–without ever renouncing their conviction that they had seen Jesus bodily resurrected? Does anyone really think the disciples could have maintained a lie all that time under that kind of pressure?

No, someone would have cracked, just as we did so easily in Watergate. Someone would have acted as John Dean did and turned state’s evidence. There would have been some kind of smoking gun, or a deathbed confession.

So why didn’t they crack? Because they had come face to face with the living God. They could not deny what they had seen. The fact is that people will give their lives for what they believe is true, but they will never give their lives for what they know is a lie. The Watergate cover-up proves that 12 powerful men in modern America couldn’t keep a lie–and that 12 powerless men 2,000 years ago couldn’t have been telling anything but the truth.

 

[Skywalker]

As you yourself state "you beleive." Thus, your beleif is based on Christian standards. It is not like you read the Tanakh in Hebrew and came to that conclusion.

A lot of interpretations of the Old Testament come from trusting the opinions of what the clergy say over what the scriptures say. The only one we can trust is God, not the opinions of people.

 

[Skywalker]

No it wasn't.
No it doesn't.
Next?

Similar to how the Catholic Church is about following the Bible and tradition, Judaism is about following the Old Testament and Rabbinic Tradition. What Are the Differences Between Judaism and Christianity?

Although Judaism shares the same foundational history in the Old Testament with Christians—going back to God creating in six days and resting on the seventh—there is a stark contrast between what Judaism has become in comparison to what the Old Testament teaches. Judaism couldn’t properly be named “Judaism” until after Judah came into being!2 Let me state this more succinctly: Judaism is an off-shoot, or deviation, from the Old Testament.
In Old Testament days, when Israelites followed the clear teachings of the Old Testament Scripture, they were following the true religion. Obviously, if they were not following the Old Testament, they were not being godly and thus were not following the true religion!
In the first century, however, there was a division among those who followed the Old Testament: those of the Way (i.e., Christianity—e.g., Acts 19:23, 24:14) who followed Christ as the Jewish Messiah and all the implications thereof, and those who did not follow Jesus and were finally organized into the Jewish religion of Judaism, based on traditions as opposed to finding true freedom in the Messiah.

 

[rosends]

Similar to how the Catholic Church is about following the Bible and tradition, Judaism is about following the Old Testament and Rabbinic Tradition. What Are the Differences Between Judaism and Christianity?

who cares about the church?
So you don't understand Judaism. No shock.
Next?

 

[Skywalker]

who cares about the church?
So you don't understand Judaism. No shock.
Next?

I was making an example of how many times people mix what the scriptures say with their own traditions.