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Featured Why the Long Wait?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by rrobs, Aug 5, 2020.

  1. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe Christians do not believe the world was created by magic but rather that it was created by an all powerful God. I have a computer. It did not appear by magic nor did it evolve. It came into being because intelligent people figured out how to create it and had the power to do so.
     
  2. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    Muffled, you have no idea what evolution is or what the theory of evolution involves. You do not know the evidence for it or understand why people believe it, yet, oddly, you have a quite strong opinion about it.

    Evolution is readily observable to anyone who cares to look, the mechanisms -- the theory -- are easily demonstrated.
    How can you say that when you're not aware of the evidence?
    God is the agent. Magic is the mechanism. Who vs How -- apples and oranges.
    What mechanism do you believe God used?
    What does this have to do with evolution? If you understood evolution it would be obvious why this makes no sense.

    Computers can't evolve because they don't reproduce with variation. Do you understand what this means?
     
  3. DPMartin

    DPMartin Member

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    when He made them Adam and Eve they didn't need redemption, after they ate of the tree, then not only A&E but all those who receive the life of condemnation they had after the tree. its not so much what man thinks was lost its what the Lord God lost that Jesus restored to the Father. the loss was temporary mind you. He who lives for ever and ever doesn't care how may generations it takes to fulfill His desire. that which is of dust returns to the dust, and that which is of God returns to God.
     
  4. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe God uses His word and power.

    Reproductive variation is not evolution. There is a law of conservation. It basically says that you can't get something that is not already there. So my ancestry has all kinds of DNA but it doesn't have any Chinese DNA. It simply can't show up because it isn't there.
     
  5. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    Exactly my point. "Word and power" is an appeal to magic. You have no mechanism.

    But we've been getting new things for centuries with selective breeding. Selecting from among reproductive variants does produce new things, and when enough change accumulates you have new species.
     
  6. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    Ths is folklore, not reality.
     
  7. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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  8. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe the Word of God is not folk lore. Folk lore are the Norse Myths saying that Odin created humans.
     
  9. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    OK. Organisms change and new species emerge through natural selection. There's no magic to that.

    I have no concept of how someone gets something from nothing, either. But that's what the Christians believe.
    The secularists, at least, are looking for answers
     
  10. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    Does Christianity have any more empirical support for Jehovah than there is for Odin?
     
  11. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe looking for answers where there aren't any is a waste of time.
     
  12. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe the difference is that the Bible claims to be the Word of God and the Norse myths do not.
     
  13. JW Minister

    JW Minister Member

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    There were issues involved that required time to settle.The Devil raised Jehovahs right to rule not his power if so that would have been settled in Eden ,other spirit beings rebelled as well so God allowed 6000 years for the issue to be settled.Gods concept of time is not like ours he give us an idea :

    The Second of Peter 3:1-18
    one day is with Jehovah* as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day.+

    Actually with God there is no such thing as time how can it be,he has been alive forever ,if time exist when did it start if it started what was there before time started.Albert Einstein :

    Space itself is shortened and time itself is slowed down for a moving reference frame, relative to the stationary observer. ... In the limit that its speed approaches the speed of light in vacuum, its space shortens completely down to zero width and its time slows down to a dead stop.

    So at the speed of light time stops ans since God is above space and time there is no such thing as time.So what would 4,000 be to God who is timeless,ots us who are affected by time.He has set a time for humans to be judged when that 6000 are up and Jehovahs Witnesses believe its soon
     
  14. moorea944

    moorea944 Well-Known Member

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    [Why did he create people with the full knowledge that they had flawed character...]
    He didnt, where do you read that? He created A&E in a "very good" state. But God doesnt want robots, he wants us to make the right choice. Eve eventually made a bad choice and Adam followed. Adam let Eve control of the situation, instead of stopping her...... He knew she was doing something wrong, she didnt, she was fooled, Adam wasnt.

    We have to remember that God's plans are perfect, even if we..... dont understand them. And... who are we to question the Creator of the Universe about the things that He does?
     
  15. moorea944

    moorea944 Well-Known Member

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    [The Devil raised Jehovahs right to rule not his power if so that would have been settled in Eden ,other spirit beings rebelled as well so God allowed 6000 years for the issue to be settled.]

    Is there a verse on that? Only because I saw that in a movie.....
     
  16. JW Minister

    JW Minister Member

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    God decree was questioned and not only God but Adam her head authority and being trustworthy ,the command was laid on Adam ,he must have told the woman what God said about this particular tree.

    Gen 3-1
    Did God really say that you must not eat from every tree of the garden?”+


    At this the woman said to the serpent: “We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden.+ 3 But God has said about the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden:+ ‘You must not eat from it, no, you must not touch it; otherwise you will die.’” 4 At this the serpent said to the woman: “You certainly will not die.+ 5 For God knows that in the very day you eat from it, your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and bad.”+

    So the Devil made God a liar ,what right did one of his spirit sons have to call God a liar:


    Ezekiel 28:13-14


    New Revised Standard Version

    You were in Eden, the garden of God;
    every precious stone was your covering,
    carnelian, chrysolite, and moonstone,
    beryl, onyx, and jasper,
    sapphire,a]">[a] turquoise, and emerald;
    and worked in gold were your settings
    and your engravings.b]">[b]
    On the day that you were created
    they were prepared.
    14 With an anointed cherub as guardian I placed you;c]">[c]
    you were on the holy mountain of God;
    you walked among the stones of fire.

    You were blameless in your ways
    from the day that you were created,
    until iniquity was found in you.


    In the abundance of your trade
    you were filled with violence, and you sinned;Your heart was proud because of your beauty;
    you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor.


    English Standard Version
    I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.’


    There is evidence each creative DAY was longer than 24 hours but 7,000 long
    Christ will rule for 1,000 in the Kingdom which suggest it closes out the other 6,000

    The Hebrew word for “day,” yohm, is used in a variety of ways in the Bible. In the very account of creation we have “day” used to refer to three different periods of time. “Day” is used to refer to the daylight hours, as when we read: “God began calling the light Day, but the darkness he called Night.” It is used to refer to both day and night, as when we read:

    “There came to be evening and there came to be morning, a first day.” And “day” is also used to refer to the entire time period involved in creation of the heavens and the earth: “This is a history of the heavens and the earth in the time of their being created, in the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven.”—Gen. 1:5; 2:4.

    Then again, on more than one occasion Jehovah God used a day to represent a year. This he did in connection with the Israelites in the wilderness and with his prophet Ezekiel. His Word says: “A day for a year, a day for a year, you will answer for your errors.” “A day for a year, a day for a year, is what I have given you,thus Israel wandered 40 years not 40 days for the error.

    Likewise in regard to Daniel’s prophecy that foretold the coming of the Messiah at the end of sixty-nine “weeks.” The Messiah came, not at the end of sixty-nine literal weeks, or 483 days, but at the end of 483 years.

    The scriptures gives us a clue as to the length of the seventh day. Since these “days” were all part of one ‘week,’ it would be reasonable to conclude that all these “days” were of the same length.

    As regards the length of the seventh day it is indeed of interest that the Bible says nothing about ‘an evening and a morning,’ a beginning and an end to the seventh day as in the case of the other six days.

    And there was evening and there was morning, a first day.
    And there was evening and there was morning, a sixth day.
    After the 7th started we dont see the evening and there was morning

    This is a meaningful omission. The record simply states: “God proceeded to bless the seventh day and make it sacred,The only logical conclusion that we can reach is that the seventh day has continued right on. Does the Bible support this conclusion? Yes, it most certainly does, for it speaks of Jehovah God as still resting thousands of years after creation

    at Psalm 95:8-11, we read that Jehovah said to the Israelites in the wilderness that they would not enter into his rest because of the hardness of their hearts. This shows that God had been resting from works of the sort described in Genesis chapters one and two from the creation of Eve to that time, more than 2,500 years.*

    psalmist David, some 400 years later, at Psalm 95:8-11 speaks of entering into God’s rest in his day. And then more than a thousand years after David’s time the writer of Hebrews speaks of Jehovah God as still resting in his day. He counsels Christians not to be like the Israelites in the wilderness who failed to enter into God’s rest, but that they should do their “utmost to enter into that rest,” Jehovah’s rest. In this connection he says that “there remains a sabbath resting for the people of God.” And as the words of the apostle Paul are applicable to Christians today, it follows that Jehovah has been enjoying his sabbath or rest from physical creation almost six thousand years now.

    The seventh one thousand years of the seventh “day” will thus in itself be a sabbath. During it Satan and his demons will be bound for 1000 years which suggest this will start when 6,000 are completed
     
  17. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    I was thinking that, as per Gen 3:15, the redeemer would be a descendant of Adam and Eve. Genesis 1 explains in great detail that everything reproduces "after its kind." Since Adam and Eve were human, so would the savior be human. No indication whatsoever that he'd be a god-man creature. Jesus was a man just like the rest of us. There are ample verses that say that. He was tempted just like us. If he were part god (or whole god or whatever - 100% human and 100% god just doesn't work), his temptations would hardly be like ours.

    Being human, Jesus knew exactly what every other human knows at birth - nada, zip. He had to learn just like all other humans. What did he have to learn to redeem mankind? The scriptures! There is no way God could have communicated the necessary information for Jesus to learn his task all at once. It took 4,000 years to find enough faithful men to write them. Also, I wouldn't think someone like Mary who said, "be it done unto me..." comes along very often.

    Also, remember God gave dominion over the earth to man. Man screwed up and so man had to fix it. God had to work with men to bring about his will. That's why I believe it took so long. All in all, I think it rather amazing it only took 4,000 years, but our God is certainly a most wonderful god!
     
  18. moorea944

    moorea944 Well-Known Member

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    Ezekiel has nothing to do with a devil. Read it again, the whole chapter. Do you know what the word "Devil" actually means in the org text? It doesnt mean a fallen angel if that's what your thinking.....

    There are translation errors in scripture, not from God, but from man. Just to let you know....
     
  19. JW Minister

    JW Minister Member

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    The redeemer had to be as Adam was sinless ,so how could God send his son to be born from a male member of Adam who all were born in sin impossible.Jesus was not the product of intercourse between Mary and any male ,Jehovah was Jesus father.
    He was not a god man but human he hungered ,got thirsty needed sleep like anyone else.He could be killed like any human the difference is he was a miracle worker and his life bought back was Adam lost.Because of Jesus he restored the earthly paradise where Adam was expelled from .God told Adam if he is obedient he was continue to live and never die ,heaven was not a reward the earth was his home.Gid created Adam to live forever on earth and his purpose for humans has not changed David said:

    Psalms 37:1-40
    Trust in Jehovah and do what is good;+Reside in the earth,*

    For evil men will be done away with,+But those hoping in Jehovah will possess the earth.+ ו
    The righteous will possess the earth,+And they will live forever on it.+

    Nothing about going to heaven because heaven was not Gods original plan
    Adam would have never aged and became sick he was created to live on earth not die and go to heaven.God has a purpose and nothing can change it.

    Malachi 3:6


    King James Version




    6 For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

    Malachi 3:6

    Holman Christian Standard Bible
    6 “Because I, Yahweh, have not changed, you descendants of Jacob have not been destroyed.

    Jesus told the thief who died along side :

    New International Version
    Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."

    So paradise is not lost and heaven has never been associated with paradise

    God tells us about the earth and heaven

    Psalm 115:16
    As for the heavens, they belong to Jehovah,aBut the earth he has given to the sons of men.b

    That has not changed ,yes the Churches teach about going to heaven ,for example the thief supposed to have went to heaven but this thief was not born again so he never went to heaven and only a certain number will be born again the rest will live on earth forever in perfect conditions just like Adam enjoyed.
     
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