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Why the Lamb in Revelation is Zion

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by wizanda, Nov 19, 2019.

  1. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    In Revelation the Lamb is cryptically the Tribe of David (Zion - ציון); which are those who are of the Flock (Zan - צאן) - where David implies 'beloved of God'.

    Revelation 5:6 I saw in the middle of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the middle of the elders, a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, having seven horns, and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, 'sent out into all the earth'.

    The Curse of Moses says the Diaspora was the Jewish people 'being sent out into all the earth' (Deuteronomy 28:64)...

    The Lamb is contextually linked as the Messiah being the head of the Flock; which is why including the Hebrew of Zan and Zion, as they become interchangeably referenced by the prophets, and this does not come across in any translations.

    The scriptures passing around the world as a tests in the text, being the 7 eyes to examine the hearts of the nations, and test their interactions with the message carried by the people who praise God.

    Xians often chastise Zionist for being too legal; whereas Zand means exegesis, so personally would say everyone is not being legal enough.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  2. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    the flock matthew 5:9 pacific



    Edgar Cayce on the Book of Revelation
     
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  3. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    Are you still talking about "The lamb" in the book of Revelations?

    Wasn't revelations in Greek? If so, the connection to the Hebrew language seems tenuous at best?

    That's where I'm stuck on this one. I don't see a strong link ( or really any link ) between the Hebrew words "Zan and Zion" in the Tanach, and anything written in Greek in the New Testament.
     
  4. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Revelation is written in Greek, and the word lamb is a diminutive... Little Lamb.

    The Flock in Hebrew refers to our people as sheep, therefore the Messiah being their head symbolically makes the Lamb in Revelation refer both to the Flock, and Messiah contextually.
    Zion is repeatedly used as the Flock of Israel, with references like the Daughters of Zion, and could be assumed to be only a place by only looking at a dictionary, rather than its usages across the prophets...

    So for example, this is clearly not Zion being a place, as the Children of Israel -> Judah -> Zion are taken into Babylon.

    Zechariah 2:7 ‘Come, Zion! Escape, you who dwell with the daughter of Babylon.’

    Thus this is defining the beloved who are like David among our flock.

    Psalms 48:11 Let Mount Zion be glad! Let the daughters of Judah rejoice, Because of your judgments.

    How can a mountain be glad, yet people who reside there can.

    Psalms 74:1-2 A contemplation by Asaph. God, why have you rejected us forever? Why does your anger smolder against the sheep of your pasture? (2) Remember your congregation, which you purchased of old, which you have redeemed to be the tribe of your inheritance; Mount Zion, in which you have lived.


    This compares the Flock (Sheep) to Mount Zion, in other words it isn't just the place, it is the people that the Lord dwells amongst.

    Isaiah 16:1 Send the lambs for the ruler of the land from Selah to the wilderness, to the mountain of the daughter of Zion.

    The Daughters of Zion make a mountain of people here i.e. the Flock.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
    #4 wizanda, Nov 19, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2019
  5. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    @wizanda,

    OK, I think I'm getting closer to understanding what you're saying. I'm sorry that it's taking extra posts to get there...

    Perhaps my confusion is attached to a different understanding of the role and function of the flock and the Messiah. Without any additional information, I would not equate the two.
     
  6. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Thank you for apologizing, sorry for not always being clear, I will get better; yet some bits are so overly complex in the scriptures, that to detail every last entry takes precision to see...

    Ask therefore, and the scriptures do reveal themselves.
    Are you trying to make the sheep the same as a shepherd? :confused:

    The Shepherd has a title (Zion), the Flock that follow that shepherd have his name upon them (Zan).

    If you explain where or how you're confused, I will always try my best to solve every stumbling stone; if we leave it undone, it often makes us trip later.

    Contextually the Messiah has always been leading the Flock, even in the Diaspora, everything that has happened to Judah has been orchestrated to train them to be Levites unto the Nations.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
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  7. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    No, I'm not trying to...

    But when I read what you wrote, that is what I take away from it:

    Thread title: "Why the lamb in revelation is Zion" ( I understand this as "Claim: Lamb in Rev = Zion" The word 'is' means equivalent.)

    But lets skip over that and the Hebrew language aspect of the OP and look at the explanation tailored to my own specific hang-up:
    "Flock refers to people as sheep" ( I'm with you this far )
    "Messiah being their head" ( I like the word shepherd better, because the flock references in Psalms come from King David, but OK )
    "The lamb in revelation refer to both the flock and the messiah" ( Well... I honestly don't know about this )

    Focusing on the last segment above:

    If you're not saying they're equivalent, ( in spite of the title of the Thread ) but instead you are claiming they are similar, what are the similarities and how is it relevant?

    ( BTW if I can get past this hurdle, The next question I'll probably ask is: How do you determine whether or not the book of revelations accurately describes the messianic prophecy in the Tanach? So heads-up on that...)
    Thank you. I'm trying not to be overly critical; I'm just trying to understand. I'm trying to ask questions, instead of automatically objecting out of ignorance.

    I'm trying to do this... so I appreciate the reminder :)
    I'm fine with the messiah as a leader. The connection to lamb is what's missing for me. Is that anywhere in the Tanach?
     
    #7 dybmh, Nov 20, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2019
  8. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Zion.. noun
    1. The hill of Jerusalem on which the city of David was built.
      • the citadel of ancient Jerusalem.
      • Jerusalem.
    2. (in Christian thought) the heavenly city or kingdom of heaven.
      synonyms:
      paradise · nirvana · the kingdom of heaven · the promised land ·
      [more]
    3. (among Rastafarians) Africa.
     
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  9. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    OK....now I see the link. It's the KJV of Isaiah 16:1.
     
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  10. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    I believe the four horsemen of the apocalypse have human counterparts in the four kings that supplied auxiliary troops during the siege of Jerusalem. I believe the four horsemen of the apocalypse are Antiochus, Agrippa II, Sohemus and Malchus.The Wars of the Jews 3.4.2." data-hasqtip="0">1 The Midrash says that Vespasian had four generals with him during the Roman assault on Israel. It is also possible that these four horsemen are these four generals? Regardless of whether they were four generals or four client kings, these four horsemen did indeed conquer as predicted in Revelation 6:2; “take peace from the earth” according to Revelation 6:4; induce famine as implied in Revelation 6:6; and “kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth” when these four kings led their armies in the war on Palestine climaxing in the siege of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. As a result of this allied assault, Jerusalem was conquered and thousands of Israelites were killed by “sword, famine and plague.” 97,000 Jews were exiled2 many of whom were killed in Roman amphitheaters “by sword and wild beasts.”3 In A.D. 69, a year before the fall of Jerusalem, an omen of the coming tragedy was seen in the sky–the sun darkened, the moon turned blood red and a star fell in fulfillment of Revelation 6:12-13: “There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars in the sky fell to the earth.” The earthquake mentioned in v. 12 may refer to the earthquake that hit Jerusalem the year before, in A.D. 68. Amidst the fall of Jerusalem, many people fled to caves under the city or to the mountains and caves of the Dead Sea as predicted in Revelation 6:15: then the people “hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains.” The last pocket of resistance held out at the mountain fortress of Masada. Realizing that they could not overcome the Romans, 960 Jews took their lives. In this mass suicide, one can see the eerie fulfillment of Revelation 6:16-17: “They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”

    continued

    Revelation 6 Commentary - Praying for the Four Horsemen
     
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  11. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    16:1 (Sela). It is a city in Edom, excavated in the rocks, with palaces, dwellings, tombs and amphitheater and to be approached only from the e., through a rocky defile 1 1/2 ms. in length, called the Sik, i. e. the Cleft, its sides being from 100 to 300 ft. in height.
    Bible Map: Sela
    bibleatlas.org/sela.htm

    I am pretty sure that today its is known as Petra.
     
  12. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    The Tanakh uses a Dual Keyword coding system to identify timelines; Revelation uses the same mechanisms.

    Thus on most concepts we should be able to establish more than one witness, for some of the things presented within it.

    Next I fulfilled Revelation 10 before reading the Bible, so the detailed account it provided of my life, has led me to know it is real.

    In my opinion.
    :innocent:
     
  13. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    @wizanda,

    The translation of the Hebrew word in Isa 16:1 to "lamb" has merit, FWIW. But if your preference is to look at Strong's Index. Note that this specific word in Isaiah only occurs 1 time in the entire Tanach. And it is quite different than the word for a lamb that is used in the book of Numbers ( 7:45 for example ) where it is clear the verses are speaking literally about a "lamb".

    So, there is legit difference of opinion on the translation of this verse. Nothing more / nothing less, as far as I can tell. But it is a little mysterious. And I like that.

    Thanks again,
     
    #13 dybmh, Nov 20, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2019
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  14. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    o_O:rolleyes::D

    The most important thing that I am taking away from this is:

    When you are quoting the Tanakh, and I am quoting the Tanach, we are often quoting two very different sets of scripture.

    ( The 'K" is going to help me remember... for "King James" )
     
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  15. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    King James didn't make up the Greek, and Hebrew...

    The KJV+, and concordance is the tools needed to get the job done, as it allows us to see all interconnected languages, and passages via the Strongs referencing.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  16. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    Yeah, that. That's what I meant to say anyway... :glomp:
     
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