Why the Christians have the false assumption that they are going to Heaven

[That Dude]

his taste for cars has nothing to do with the accident...
because the old lady forgot her hearing aid and went back to get it made the timing of the accident possible for example...
there are so many variables...it's endless.

There may be many different variables, but only one that leads to the accident. Which makes it unique to the guy driving the car. All choices he made and all choices brought about by free will.

i don't think i said that, did i?

My bad.

the fact that there are indifferent random events happening all around us all the time changes everything.

i am a songwriter...
there are musical laws as to how to invoke a certain feeling...but at the same time a level of improvising is involved...there is no preparation for how a recording session will turn out especially when you have players who don't usually play together...chemistry and influences play a big role (which are all elements of free will), but when thrown together in a melting pot with the element of improve the end result takes on a life of it's own...
listen to how "pinball wizard" from the who sounds like and compare it to elton john's version....it's the same song but received differently... the way in which it is presented and taken in is the result of random indifference...why was elton john version more popular?

Because it was in the movie, Tommy. There is only one reason Elton was picked to be the wizzard in the movie or opera... whatever.
Which were all variables unique to Elton John. Had Elton not lived the life he did, Roger Daltrey and Pete Townshend may have never met him and we may not have ever known Elton John. That's yet another good example of free will at work.
Elton wanted to sing Pete's song and what resulted from acting on his desires is clearly seen now.

 

[waitasec]

There may be many different variables, but only one that leads to the accident. Which makes it unique to the guy driving the car. All choices he made and all choices brought about by free will.

i disagree because the world or the universe does not revolve around him.

Because it was in the movie, Tommy. There is only one reason Elton was picked to be the wizzard in the movie or opera... whatever.
Which were all variables unique to Elton John. Had Elton not lived the life he did, Roger Daltrey and Pete Townshend may have never met him and we may not have ever known Elton John. That's yet another good example of free will at work.
Elton wanted to sing Pete's song and what resulted from acting on his desires is clearly seen now.

my point being these were 2 separate singles, same song but released by 2 different people, one did better in the charts than the other... random....
(i personally like the who's version )

kidding aside,
the 1st point you made, got to the heart of the matter. all the choices he made didn't lead up to this...you have to remember the old lady made choices too...had he spilled coffee on his lap, or had the old lady not forget her hearing aid, this whole incident would have never happen. that is why indifferent random events have to be apart of the equation because these random things happen all the time...

 

[That Dude]

i disagree because the world or the universe does not revolve around him.

That's kind of my point too. lol
If it did, then what you're saying would be more likely but it's not and he isn't subject to anything that he can't make a choice over.
Yes, random events do happen to the guy, to everyone for that matter. But we decide how to react to them.

my point being these were 2 separate singles, same song but released by 2 different people, one did better in the charts than the other... random....
(i personally like the who's version )

I'm an artist. (That's my job)
And I can tell you that the successful artist, are the ones who can recognize what people like. "Random" would put you in debt faster then a bad divorce.

kidding aside,
the 1st point you made, got to the heart of the matter. all the choices he made didn't lead up to this...you have to remember the old lady made choices too...had he spilled coffee on his lap, or had the old lady not forget her hearing aid, this whole incident would have never happen. that is why indifferent random events have to be apart of the equation because these random things happen all the time...

The fact that the old lady made choices too, doesn't change what I'm saying.
So what if they both made choices? They both acted on a series of events that lead up to the accident. Making choices about everything that happened.
Some of those choices were made based on influence and some were simply done to get it done, all were done for self gratification.

 

[nevaya]

Wha? Your Satanist. We should be the ones educating you on your belief. Satan is our Adversary, after all.

Why educate me on my belief, I have no rules to follow, only the ones logically acceptable among society.

 

[waitasec]

I'm an artist. (That's my job)
And I can tell you that the successful artist, are the ones who can recognize what people like. "Random" would put you in debt faster then a bad divorce.

maybe today, but back then it was a new frontier...

The fact that the old lady made choices too, doesn't change what I'm saying.
So what if they both made choices? They both acted on a series of events that lead up to the accident. Making choices about everything that happened.
Some of those choices were made based on influence and some were simply done to get it done, all were done for self gratification.

then you are saying they had no choice...this was their destiny?

 

[Sum1sGruj]

Wha? Your Satanist. We should be the ones educating you on your belief. Satan is our Adversary, after all.

Why educate me on my belief, I have no rules to follow, only the ones logically acceptable among society.

Is Satanist just a namesake for you then?
Because according to Jews, he's a mere servant of God meant to test the will of man. To Christians, he is a renegade angel fixated on a concept which only disrupts man. Surely if hell isn't a place of torment, it will only be a place of difference and war just as here.

 

[That Dude]

then you are saying they had no choice...this was their destiny?

No, I apologize. I didn't mean for it to sound like that.
Through out our lives we are influenced by other people, friends, family, co-workers and so on... When we make choices based on how we've been influenced, were not expecting any surprises.
But that kind of influence doesn't necessarily "control" our lives. It just helps us find a comfort zone that we can live in.
What winds up controlling our lives the most is how we react to what we didn't expect.
It just so happens that living our lives in a comfort zone, will eventually lead to the unexpected. So no matter what we do, we're bound to experience free will.
It's all in the way you perceive the unexpected because that's the only time we're not faced with something we have been influenced by.

He knew why he liked the car in the first place. His motives were based on dreams and ambitions he had his entire life.
So buying the car was him acting out his desire to stay in his comfort zone.
Hitting the old lady was the unexpected.
If he reacted to it, as we might expect. "Oh no! I hit an old lady with my car. How can I possibly enjoy it now?"
Then most of his life's expectations have just vanished.
Where does he find solace? This is where free will takes on a whole new meaning and people start looking for answers.
Free will takes on a whole new meaning because something we didn't want to happen just did. And if we didn't want it, how could it be our will?
Well, that part wasn't. What is, is how we get beyond what we didn't want.

 

[McBell]

Is Satanist just a namesake for you then?
Because according to Jews, he's a mere servant of God meant to test the will of man. To Christians, he is a renegade angel fixated on a concept which only disrupts man. Surely if hell isn't a place of torment, it will only be a place of difference and war just as here.

Actually, Satanism is not limited to those two groups:

Satanism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
​

 

[waitasec]

No, I apologize. I didn't mean for it to sound like that.
Through out our lives we are influenced by other people, friends, family, co-workers and so on... When we make choices based on how we've been influenced, were not expecting any surprises.
But that kind of influence doesn't necessarily "control" our lives. It just helps us find a comfort zone that we can live in.
What winds up controlling our lives the most is how we react to what we didn't expect.
It just so happens that living our lives in a comfort zone, will eventually lead to the unexpected. So no matter what we do, we're bound to experience free will.
It's all in the way you perceive the unexpected because that's the only time we're not faced with something we have been influenced by.

He knew why he liked the car in the first place. His motives were based on dreams and ambitions he had his entire life.
So buying the car was him acting out his desire to stay in his comfort zone.
Hitting the old lady was the unexpected.
If he reacted to it, as we might expect. "Oh no! I hit an old lady with my car. How can I possibly enjoy it now?"
Then most of his life's expectations have just vanished.
Where does he find solace? This is where free will takes on a whole new meaning and people start looking for answers.
Free will takes on a whole new meaning because something we didn't want to happen just did. And if we didn't want it, how could it be our will?
Well, that part wasn't. What is, is how we get beyond what we didn't want.

i agree we are responsible for the choices we make...we have no choice but to have free will (paraphrasing christopher hitchens)
i agree that it is how we respond to the surprises in our lives that tells us what kind of people we are...
but our free will is unavoidably bound to interact with indifferent random events...
so when a surprise happens it's not just the choices that lead up to the event but also the smaller random events, that is why it's a surprise in the 1st place...
you are leaving out a key player, the old lady and what lead her to be at the wrong place at the wrong time.
those who think there is an answer to the why's of life look for it...
but there are those who do not think there is a why, it just is and accept it.
how could hitting an old lady accidentally be directly associated to the love a person has for a car...people drive their dream cars all the time. his choice in taste in cars had nothing to do with hitting her, he could of had a different car, a pinto , because he lost his job and couldn't afford the car of his dreams...
by saying his love for a certain car led to this situation is giving an undue importance to an individuals choices, because this situation involved more than one person, it could have involved the random events and choices of 100 people that day maybe even more...
i guess for some it's comforting to know the "why's" in life. which is ultimately based on subjective POV's.
but for me, life is about uncertainties and i know i can count on that

 

[Sum1sGruj]

Actually, Satanism is not limited to those two groups:

Satanism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
​

I looked through that entire article and found nothing to conclude that any aspect of Satanism differs from the Judaic or Christian adversary.

 

[McBell]

I looked through that entire article and found nothing to conclude that any aspect of Satanism differs from the Judaic or Christian adversary.

Wow.
That says so much more than you can possibly imagine.

 

[Sum1sGruj]

Wow.
That says so much more than you can possibly imagine.

I saw many different takes regarding the Judaic or Christian adversary. Satan is after all, of Abrahamac origin.

So I have no idea what you are saying.

You may want to recheck the article. I did, and to no avail of what your talking about.

 

[newhope101]

It is true that most Christians assume that because they believe in Jesus and have asked for forgiveness they are automatically saved. However the Bible their own spiritual guide has much more to say about the art of getting through the pearly gates.

Jesus said," For I tell you that unless your rightousness surpasses thatof the pharisees and the the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:20
Exactly. The pharasees were up themselves and did not practice what they preached. As religious leaders they have a larger share in the respnsibility of 'not letting those that would otherwise enter do so" because of 'teaching the word of man as doctrine".
"But small is the gate and and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."Matthew 7:14
Absolutely...not many will get the first resurrection to heaven after death. Most will have to wait for the 2nd resurrection at the end of days for another chance to prove themselves worthy or die for all eternity.
"Not everyone that says to me Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my father."Matthew 7:21
Yes, the will of the Father is that they must accept Jesus ransom sacrifice, and have the right state of heart and mind. Like the sinner that repented on the cross next to Jesus :today you will be with me in Paradise".This is not so for the pharasees etc. Their unacceptance of Jesus as the saviour has blocked their path,.
Most Christains overlook the doctrine that outlines Christianity because it is far to difficult to be better than the Pharisees or do the will of the father, and that leaves very few capable of being granted eternal life.No that leaves the people not worthy of heaven out of heaven and we do not want you or the pharasees there anyway with all this bad attitude. But it is up to God.

What a simplistic repertior! The bible is not meant to be understood by the spiritually blind. It is understood by those that search through it with the right heart condition and state of mind. So you may rightfully be suggesting that your search of the scriptures is a waste of your time.

Well I hope when you die Satan looks after you, if that is what you wish. So people that believe in God and heaven are crazy but those that follow Satan are smart, are they????? Or is classing yourself as a Satanist not your religion really, just some teenage fad thing????

Fortunately for those that accept the ransom sacrifice of Jesus they will get their reward sooner. Others will have to wait for another chance. It was harder for the pharasees to get to heaven then it is for them to pass through the eye of a needle. Indeed they hated Jesus, and would not recieve the full benefit of His sacrifice. They will have to sleep in sheol and prove themselves at a later time. However it is also possible that as religious leaders with a higher level of responsibility they may not get a resurrection at all. They may currently reside in Gehenna, the final death, with no chance of ever being resurrected.

So I do not know what you were trying to do with the scriptures you quoted. What you have done is highlighted the veracity of biblical scripture for those that can see its meaning with the eye of understanding. It's All Good!

 

[waitasec]

What a simplistic repertior! The bible is not meant to be understood by the spiritually blind. It is understood by those that search through it with the right heart condition and state of mind. So you may rightfully be suggesting that your search of the scriptures is a waste of your time.

Well I hope when you die Satan looks after you, if that is what you wish. So people that believe in God and heaven are crazy but those that follow Satan are smart, are they????? Or is classing yourself as a Satanist not your religion really, just some teenage fad thing????

Fortunately for those that accept the ransom sacrifice of Jesus they will get their reward sooner. Others will have to wait for another chance. It was harder for the pharasees to get to heaven then it is for them to pass through the eye of a needle. Indeed they hated Jesus, and would not recieve the full benefit of His sacrifice. They will have to sleep in sheol and prove themselves at a later time. However it is also possible that as religious leaders with a higher level of responsibility they may not get a resurrection at all. They may currently reside in Gehenna, the final death, with no chance of ever being resurrected.

So I do not know what you were trying to do with the scriptures you quoted. What you have done is highlighted the veracity of biblical scripture for those that can see its meaning with the eye of understanding. It's All Good!

who are you to judge who has the "right heart condition and state of mind"?

instead of being so overtly condescending and arrogant i would have received your statement in a positive light had you said 'with a certain heart condition and state of mind'

get over yourself...really, humility goes a longer way.

 

[sojourner]

I saw many different takes regarding the Judaic or Christian adversary. Satan is after all, of Abrahamac origin.

So I have no idea what you are saying.

You may want to recheck the article. I did, and to no avail of what your talking about.

Wait a miniute! Satan is of pagan origin. Satan didn't show up until Xy had become Hellenized.

 

[Civil Shephard]

but, in light of the words of jesus himself, throughout the blible it become clear that Gods grace is not given for reasons of good works. Nor is disposed upon those who simply beileive either.

I think it only seems that way because until you actually try to follow the teachings of Christ it isn't clear what he actually meant by what he said. To find the meaning of Christ teachings it is best to look at all four Gospels and even Acts as they begin to perceive the grace afforded to simply looking to the Cross of Christ. For my part I believe sacrifice is a shared experience for those who chose anonymous goodness over flagrant advertisement of pretentious righteousness. But as for grace not coming as a result of good works... well... faith without works is no faith at all, for my part the people of valid faith that I've come to know work out of gratitude for the gift of grace rather than not doing anything at all so they'll be scripturally correct. It's the spirit not the letter... Some folks claim Christ and feel guilty if they're not smaking somebody upside the head with their understanding of doctrine.

 

[Civil Shephard]

I said that grace is a gift that has been effected... I don't see what's to be concerned about?

I should have seperated the two comments. I only meant that I felt waitasec was reflecting the spirit of what I feel to be grace in her comment. However her concern of how the exclusivitiy of grace is reflected by some of those who present the gift of grace is I feel... valid. But I cannot answer for those who present Christ in that fashion. So not to worry... my pretense isn't hafe as bad as my candor.

 

[Sum1sGruj]

Wait a miniute! Satan is of pagan origin. Satan didn't show up until Xy had become Hellenized.

That doesn't really mean anything. Satan was still founded on Abrahamic belief.

The fact is that the Greeks had so many different divine constructs that almost anything could parallel with there's. Look at Christian's Lucifer- there are a multitude of Greek entities that resemble his name and/or purpose and/or construct, etc., And the idea of Lucifer didn't show up until 1000's of years later.

Maybe the idea of an adversarial entity existed before, but the Greeks certainly did not come up with Satan.

 

[Orias]

Grace comes to the weary- those weighed down and exhausted by sin and waywardness from the truth. Heaven can only be received by a humble, emptied heart, as love of God and love of the self can not co-exist.

How can One not love God and love the self?

 

[nevaya]

I think it only seems that way because until you actually try to follow the teachings of Christ it isn't clear what he actually meant by what he said. To find the meaning of Christ teachings it is best to look at all four Gospels and even Acts as they begin to perceive the grace afforded to simply looking to the Cross of Christ. For my part I believe sacrifice is a shared experience for those who chose anonymous goodness over flagrant advertisement of pretentious righteousness. But as for grace not coming as a result of good works... well... faith without works is no faith at all, for my part the people of valid faith that I've come to know work out of gratitude for the gift of grace rather than not doing anything at all so they'll be scripturally correct. It's the spirit not the letter... Some folks claim Christ and feel guilty if they're not smaking somebody upside the head with their understanding of doctrine.

How compelling, I must say that my years of studying the New Testement have not yet granted me the full detail of what I wish to know, However what I do know and of course, Matthew, Mark , Luke, an John are my favorite I am quite historically educated.
From what I gather the pharisees were conservative politicians and religious teachers, much like the ones who preach in our churches today or run our governments.