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Featured Why Study The Bible?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Earthling, Jun 11, 2018.

  1. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    actually it's you and the council of nicea that is twisting the word begotten

    beget literally means to procreate.

    procreate literally means to bring forth, beget.

    offspring literally means to spring off

    the cosmos is an offspring of the creator.

    create literally means to beget.
     
  2. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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  3. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Wikipedia:Camel#Domestication presents a somewhat more nuanced picture, including ...

    Dromedaries may have first been domesticated by humans in Somalia and southern Arabia, around 3,000 BC, the Bactrian in central Asia around 2,500 BC,[16][72][73][74] as at Shar-i Sokhta (also known as the Burnt City), Iran.[75]

    Discussions concerning camel domestication in Mesopotamia are often related to mentions of camels in the Hebrew Bible. The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia: E-J for instance mentions that "In accord with patriarchal traditions, cylinder seals from Middle Bronze Age Mesopotamia showed riders seated upon camels."[76][77]

    Martin Heide's 2010 work on the domestication of the camel tentatively concludes that the bactrian camel was domesticated by at least the middle of the third millennium somewhere east of the Zagros Mountains, then moving into Mesopotamia, and suggests that mentions of camels "in the patriarchal narratives may refer, at least in some places, to the Bactrian camel." while noting that the camel is not mentioned in relationship to Canaan.[78]

    Recent excavations in the Timna Valley by Lidar Sapir-Hen and Erez Ben-Yosef discovered what may be the earliest domestic camel bones found in Israel or even outside the Arabian Peninsula, dating to around 930 BC. This garnered considerable media coverage as it was described as evidence that the stories of Abraham, Jacob, Esau, and Joseph were written after this time.[79][80]

    It would be silly to argue that the (Bactrian) camel was totally absent from the trade routes but, that said, the Biblical reference to camel caravans is almost certainly an anachronism. I find viewing the anachronism through the lens of the Documentary Hypothesis instructive.

    The camel appears three times in the Totah: Genesis 24:64, Leviticus 11:4, and Deuteronomy 14:7. Richard Elliott Friedman (of Who Wrote the Bible fame) has also authored The Bible with Sources Revealed where he assigns the above three references to RJE, P and, again, RJE respectively. In the introduction Friedman writes:

    In the year 722 BCE, the Assyrian empire destroyed the northern kingdom of Israel. J an E were no longer separated by a border. These two versions of the people's history now existed side by side in the kingdom of Judah. In the years that followed, someone assembled a history that used both J and E as sources. The editor/historian who combined J and E into a single work is known as the Redactor of JE, or RJE for short.

    The third main source is known as P because one of its central concerns is the priesthood. In critical scholarship, there are two main views of when it was composed. One view is that P was the latest of the sources, composed in the sixth or fifth century BCE. Te other view is that P was composed not long after J and E were combined -- specifically, that it was produced by the Jerusalem priesthood as an alternative to the history told in JE. Linguistic evidence now supports the latter view and virtually rules out the late date for P.​

    This argues that the camel references were likely authored in the 7th century BCE or, possibly, slightly earlier. And, no, 'Moses' was not involved.
     
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  4. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    No, it isn't written that Jesus has the voice of an archangel. It is written that he comes with an archangel's voice. The words do not make it clear that the voice is his or is someone else's voice. Compare John 15:5
    I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.
     
  5. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson

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    If that's how you want to see it.
     
  6. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    Should I be happy to have your permission?
     
  7. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    In respect for The God, I do not want to. Please see Psalms 23:1.

    The original meaning of "The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want." might have meant simply that to be led by God just means that a person can't want something that the Shepherd doesn't have to give him. I think you know that sheep follow their shepherd and it isn't right for a sheep to go his own way.

    That is what I think the writer meant.

    Are you aware that many scriptures had been changed since the first writing of them? I believe Psalms 23:1 might have been one that was changed.

    https://www.amazon.com/Misquoting-Jesus-Story-Behind-Changed/dp/0060859512
     
  8. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson

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    No, you don't need my permission, it 's your responsibility. We don't have to agree with each other you know. I've always gotten along with people who disagree with me, totally, on the Bible, or with atheists.
     
  9. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    How nice! If we don't agree on the meaning of some scriptures does it mean that I am wrong every time?
     
  10. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson

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    Why such fragile egos?

    It isn't a contest. It isn't a quiz. God doesn't expect us to know everything. As long as we are trying he sees that in our heart. If our heart is aimed at self righteousness or our heart is inclined towards something other than truth then we are wrong, otherwise it doesn't matter.
     
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  11. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    How are you a "Bible believer"? I ask because if you believe the Bible is telling you something about God and/or Christ and it isn't, then you are believing a lie. What Does the Bible Say About Believing Lies?
     
  12. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    I think that The Bible makes it clear that a person does not know his or her own heart. So, it doesn't really matter much if I believe I am for The Truth about anything or if I think I am not self-righteous.

    I'd like to be for the truth and I do hate to call unrighteousness righteousness, but what do I know?

    I trust that it is against my own life to decide what is what regarding God's message to anyone. I believe Isaiah 5:20.

    Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter

    So far, I haven't got much woe and I am hoping that it stays that way.
     
  13. Segev Moran

    Segev Moran Well-Known Member

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    Based on?
    Lol.. Why do you say that?
    There are millions of people who think otherwise. (which are all wrong probably, but i wouldn't say its nonsense)
    How is it different than any other spiritual idea (including Christianity)?
     
  14. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson

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    So Moses, who was there, says it was true. Someone else, who wasn't there, says it couldn't be true. Which do I believe? How many times has someone said it couldn't have been true and it turns out it was true. Slaves in Egypt, Belshazzar, Cyrus returning captives, the life span in David's time. All turned out to be true when questioned by critics.

    I don't believe you guys.
     
  15. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson

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    You can take any literary work and use the same parlor trick. That's all it is, a clever parlor trick.
     
  16. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member
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    Could you please say where Moses says in the Bible anything like "I, Moses, an eyewitness saw all this and am writing it down just as I saw it. "?
    Thank you.
    And you automatically believe claims made by any old authors.. like Homer or Virgil?
    And you are claiming that the Bible is true because the Bible says so??? How disappointing. Looks like blind faith to me.
     
  17. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson

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    You're welcome. Exodus 17:14 Exodus 34:27

    By the way. Perhaps you could help me with my site. Creation Claims: Hinduism I'm looking for any claims of creation contained in any sacred text, in this case, Hinduism.

    No. Nor any allegedly made by Jehovah, Jesus, or Moses etc.

    I didn't say that. Some of the Bible isn't true. The only difference between me and you on that subject, perhaps, is that I know which parts aren't true.
     
  18. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member
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    Umm, in your links, the sentence goes like : God saying to Moses to write stuff down. So the anonymous author is simply claiming that the section being written comes directly from what Moses wrote down under (claimed) commands of God.
    There is nothing like "I am Moses, who wrote all this and I am eyewitness to all of it. "... like in Quran for example. Quran repeatedly claims direct authorship based on first person eyewitness. Why then do you not believe it?

    You know which parts are true or not... how?
     
  19. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson

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    First of all I couldn't help but notice that you completely ignored my question on Creation Claims In Hinduism, can I assume you are not interested?

    Secondly, regarding Moses, what is the point you are trying to make? That if there isn't a passage where Moses claims authorship directly this is an indication that Moses didn't write the books? If I give you a passage where Paul does make a similar direct claim does that imply without question his authorship? Of course not. If I show you historical references which attribute authorship to Moses, either of a scriptural or secular origin would it validate the claim? Not really.

    As for the Quran, it is primarily a repetition of the sentiment that the heretic should be killed, with peppering of opinion on how to pray, divorce etc. It makes no claims that need be substantiated nor makes historical references that can be checked.
     
  20. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member
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    I am in office. Will respond with creation hymns when I get an opportunity.
     
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