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Why Socialism is Good?

Discussion in 'North American Politics' started by Nakosis, Jun 17, 2019.

  1. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    What is a socialistic idea? Which ideas have been incorporated that you see as socialistic?
     
  2. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    I said I did agree with at least part of what you said. However you also suggested I didn't understand emancipatory collective. I'm asking you what led you to that assumption.
     
  3. Gerry

    Gerry Well-Known Member

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    Winning the lottery or becoming the next ipo billionaire are out. The math doesn’t work.
    So, best to become a politician or possibly a business person (if you can con a dishonest banker into lending you a lot of money) and treat everyone as tools, just pawns to be used for your personal benefit. And definitely don’t be afraid to cheat and lie to get what you want. Bribery and murder are useful as well, if it leads to getting what you want.
    Always remember, greed is good.
    And good guys finish last.

    I could be wrong. Maybe there is another way. You tell me. Do you really believe every person can obtain wealth in this corrupt dysfunctional country? There is a limit to the amount of wealth a country can have. 60 years ago, the country was far less wealthy in total, yet a larger percentage of people had higher standards of living and more net worth than today.
     
  4. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    Is that really what you'd tell your kids? I'd tell them to find a successful mentor to learn from. Do you see Trump as successful? Maybe they'd end up learning from him, to support your point.

    Many of my wife's relatives have been successful, all immigrants. In fact most of the successful people I know are immigrants. Maybe I ought to tell my kids the best way to be successful is to immigrate to another country.

    The success I see with immigrants is they tend to mentor each other. Someone through luck? hard work? being in the right place at the right time becomes successful. If one's parents are successful is a big indicator of how successful one's children are. Outliers, exception who succeed in spite of who their parents are. People, IMO need successful people to learn from. Without that, it is really hard.
     
  5. fantome profane

    fantome profane Have you read the Mueller Report?
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    This of course reminds me of the quote:
    “We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both.”
    - Louis D. Brandeis

    And we need to remember that the kind of extreme wealth we are talking about does not come from nowhere. Often it comes out of industries that pollute the air and water that belongs to everyone. And it exploits the infrastructure that has been developed and paid for by everyone. And I think it is only fair for the very wealthy to pay for this. All to often what we see happening is “socialization” of the cost, and “privatization” of the profits.
     
  6. Shad

    Shad Veteran Member

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    I was talking about debt and national spending. The majority of the USA's budget is consumed by social programs of all types. So if people want to reduce the debt cut social programs and stop voting for people that bribe the voter with those programs.
     
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  7. leov

    leov Well-Known Member
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    They print paper money.
     
  8. Shad

    Shad Veteran Member

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    Yes. And?
     
  9. Stevicus

    Stevicus Well-Known Member
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    I don't think anyone is ever going to achieve the ideal, but I think one key point made against capitalism is that, all too often, it doesn't involve "fairness," in the sense that "those who work more, invest more, etc." receive greater compensation. There have been times it's been characterized by corruption, bribery, monopolies, nepotism, fraud, embezzlement, and other shady practices which makes one wonder just how much of it is "hard work" and how much of it is BS.

    They can get away with it because they get the best lawyers money can buy, not to mention having enough money to control political machines and bureaucrats. And even if they do get caught and found guilty, they get a slap on the wrist and three weeks at a Federal country club.

    Another thing about capitalism which I find interesting is just how extreme the disparities in income can actually get, especially when looking at some of the more obscene amounts that some people at the top tier get paid. I find myself asking, "What is it that they actually do that's worth that much?" I've asked this question before, but no one is able or willing to show the math. There are CEOs who make millions upon millions annually, even when their own company is failing. (One example is the CEO of Sears.)

    Why reward failure? Why pay more for something than it's really worth? These are legitimate questions that even capitalists should be willing to answer with more than simple platitudes about the "free market." (We also have free elections, but I find myself asking similar questions about people's foolish voting choices.)

    As to your question of "why socialism is good," one thing to always keep in mind about socialism is that, if capitalism was truly the success that many people say, then socialism wouldn't even exist at all! There would be no socialist revolutionaries in the world at all, past or present.

    Socialism gains primacy when capitalism becomes so corrupt and/or internally rotten that it can no longer sustain itself when left to its own devices.

    In the US and other Western countries, we've survived and thrived mainly from a mixed system containing elements of both socialism and capitalism. There are also elements of nationalism, since much of our national wealth has been derived from exploitation, colonialism, and imperialism. Molotov divided the capitalist countries into "smart and dangerous imperialists" and "fools." Most capitalist countries aren't like America or Europe, and that's another thing that capitalists neglect to mention in their endless praise of capitalism.

    Another thing about capitalism is that it can often be very predatory, leading to a dog-eat-dog, every-man-for-himself way of living. It borders on social darwinism, and this is where we have to ask ourselves: Is this really the kind of society that we want? It's as much as saying that those who are superior deserve to live better than those who are inferior. Only the strong shall survive. This is the core component of capitalism, in a nutshell.

    Socialism advocates the opposite, focusing more on cooperation for mutual benefit, sharing, a sense of community and belonging where all are included and treated equally. There's nothing about socialism that involves "free stuff," at least not in my view of socialism. Socialists support the working class, and socialists would naturally expect every able-bodied person to work to the best of their ability. It's not about slackers or ne'er-do-wells, as some people might try to portray socialism.

    Some socialists might see it more as a long-range goal - something that could be introduced gradually and incrementally. It doesn't necessarily have to be something that's introduced and implemented in one fell swoop. But then, I guess some socialists are less patient than others.
     
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  10. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Greased up & ready for action!
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    Listing hoped for positive aspects of socialism, & comparing those
    to the worst aspects of capitalism will certainly make the former
    look better than the latter. But in real world examples, socialism has
    a paucity of those benefits, while capitalism has a plethora of positives.
     
  11. leov

    leov Well-Known Member
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    Money have no value for them only for us to keep us lined up.
     
  12. Milton Platt

    Milton Platt Well-Known Member
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    That's fine, however I have never heard of the term "emancipatory collective" and have no idea what it means, so I could not possibly have accused anyone of not knowing what it was.
     
  13. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    Fair enough, didn't spell check.
     
  14. Milton Platt

    Milton Platt Well-Known Member
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    LOL,,,,,,it isn't the spelling...I never heard of the term, I don't know what it is.
     
  15. Stevicus

    Stevicus Well-Known Member
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    There are pluses and minuses to both systems. As to which system is "better," it's more subjective, depending on where you're standing.
     
  16. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Greased up & ready for action!
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    Of course.
    Some people really do prefer Cuba, N Korea, Mao's PRC, & the old USSR.
    But I'm speaking to the typical westerner here on RF.
     
  17. Stevicus

    Stevicus Well-Known Member
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    Even some westerners like it, and at least from what I've heard lately, more and more younger people are becoming more favorable towards socialism.

    This seems to be a source of some concern to more conservative, capitalist-oriented people these days. They don't seem to know or understand why so many younger people are gravitating towards socialism.
     
  18. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Greased up & ready for action!
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    But they tend not to favor actual socialist systems such as I listed.
    Instead, what they want is capitalism with generous benefits for lower echelon types.
    And those kids don't even know what socialism is.
    They only know that's the label which gets them
    free health care, college, & a cushy job.
     
  19. Left Coast

    Left Coast Active Member
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    Neither system in their extremes have been terribly beneficial in the real world. That's why basically every functional nation on the planet has some sort of mixed economy. The question is where to draw the line.
     
  20. Stevicus

    Stevicus Well-Known Member
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    A lot of people want that, but then, they're not really socialists, are they? Yet, many on the right lambaste them as socialists.

    I wouldn't automatically assume that they don't know what socialism is. Or at least, there doesn't seem to be anything preventing them from finding out what it is, although they might be exposed to both sides of the argument and make their choices from that.

    But you could be right in that many of them are not so much advocates for socialism as much as they believe that capitalism is odious, dishonest, and corrupt. They might be more anti-capitalist than pro-socialist. Those who feel like they're being screwed and dominated by big business interests may resist and rebel against it. They may even want to tear it down completely, but they may not know what they want to replace it.
     
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