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Why Socialism is Good?

Discussion in 'North American Politics' started by Nakosis, Jun 17, 2019.

  1. Milton Platt

    Milton Platt Well-Known Member
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    You are committing a black and white fallacy. Socialistic ideas have been incorporated into other forms of government for a very long time. It isn't "all socialism" or "all some other ism"
     
  2. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    They are not opposites. Plus "fairness" would have to be defined and full equality is not even realistically possible.
     
  3. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    The democratic forms of socialism as found in the Scandinavian countries is "evil"? Please give me more "evil" then as I'm jealous of what my Swedish cousins have there.
     
  4. sun rise

    sun rise "Let there be peace and love among all"
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    To me fairness starts at birth. It's called equal opportunity. A poor child from a single parent family living in poverty should have an equal chance at school and job training. This means we ensure that schools have equal environments, equal books, computers etc and that we pay teachers a very good wage to attract the best.

    Partly this is an inheritance issue. Someone who inherits a billion dollars will have an unfair advantage over someone who inherits nothing.

    Fairness also includes nutrition. People should have equal opportunity to have high quality nutritious food.

    There is a limit to fairness, it's not an utter absolute. But we can get much much closer than we are now.

    I agree about the work more. The tax system is biased against hard workers by giving an unfair advantage to those who pay others to invest money while they live in idleness. Those that work hard should be rewarded for it.

    The last tax rejiggering was exactly that. Corporate welfare and money to the rich with pennies to those on the bottom, if that.

    The right does social engineering as well. They keep cutting taxes believing that will have a positive effect and ignoring that every time they do it, the deficit goes up at the state and federal level.

    The difference is in which set of social engineers people rely on.
     
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  5. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    That only makes it easier to reach consensus but has nothing to do with how it's administered once in place. Since they are all democratic countries, and since the Scandinavians have repeatedly kept their economic system for decades now, although with modifications as time has gone on, it's really working quite well for them.
     
  6. Gerry

    Gerry Well-Known Member

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    The obscenely wealthy will always have most of everything, it’s just that with socialism they might have slightly less. Plus your idea of fair is missing a lot. I worked far more, far longer, and far harder than our president, yet he has far more wealth. Much of the wealth goes to the cheaters, and the political class who make laws for others, but not for themselves. Also, when the world economy collapsed because the greedy class wanted all the world’s wealth for themselves, who lost homes and cars and jobs? And who got all the trillions of dollars of government money? Are you completely blind to the unfair system in place in the US?

    What’s wrong with a 99% wealth tax on anyone’s assets over 10 million for example? What purpose is served to have a few people hoarding hundreds of billions of dollars while so many people starve and die living in the streets?
     
  7. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    The way I see it, the wealth of a Bill Gates or Warren Buffet has no bearing on my wealth. IOW, there is not a static pool of wealth we must all draw from. I have the ability like most others to create wealth independent of the 1%. The more wealth the merrier. :shrug:

    Anyone can create the wealth they want in capitalism. That's fair. The trick is knowing how. I think this knowledge is missing from our education system.
     
  8. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    Ok, just an obvious difference I see which may make such a system more difficult to implement in the US.
     
  9. Gerry

    Gerry Well-Known Member

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    Yes, but hard work and intelligence does not equate to obtaining wealth in this country.

    But corruption in a political system now controlled by corporations and banks is a quick way to vast unearned wealth. In other words, theft from the masses.

    The government is over 21 trillion in debt. Everyone in the country is liable for that debt. Yet, everyone did not benefit from it. The criminals who robbed the nation by enacting tax laws (loopholes) and bailouts to corporations and banks have all of the wealth. Virtually ALL of that 21 trillion is closely hoarded by a very small percentage of the population.
    No correlation to how hard anyone works for it.

    Gimme a break.
     
  10. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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  11. The Reverend Bob

    The Reverend Bob Fart Machine and Beastmaster

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    What part of emancipatory collective didn't you understand?
     
  12. Evangelicalhumanist

    Evangelicalhumanist "Truth" isn't a thing...

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    I think that history demonstrates quite clearly that capitalism has a very, very strong advantage in terms of economic development. Not everybody is prepared to invest, to take risks. But if there were no benefit to do so, even those who might be prepared would have little reason to bother. The history of communism around the world has made that abundantly clear.

    And I certainly think that those who do invest, who do take risks, who do innovate, who hire other people and bring economic growth to communities large and small, are deserving of reaping the benefits of doing so.

    But our societies are too large, too diverse, and need people at every stratum, and at every skill level, to prosper. But these same societies also depend on the well-being of everyone, sometimes even those who can no longer contribute, because they will suck time and energy out of others who will then be required to care and provide for them. This is grossly over-simplified, but it is for this reason that I see the need for a layer of social protection, provided not "at will" by charities, religions, families, etc. (which in a complex world can't do it as they once could when we lived in little communities of dozens or hundreds).

    And since we all benefit (even businesses) from the well-being of everyone, then I think that we should all be required to do our bit towards that end, which now, in our much large societies of cities, states, provinces and nations, essentially means taxation. I don't approve of notions like "tax the rich" per se, but I do favour the idea of progressive taxation, that is higher rates for higher earners, on a scale that still allows those that contribute most to keep most, but also pay tax according to their ability.

    That's the "socialist" side of me, which remains capitalist. That said, I also support government regulating what business can and cannot do just as they do with individuals. I'm not allowed to beat up my neighbour, and I would hope that business would not be allowed to poison our environments. That seems reasonable, doesn't it?
     
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  13. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    Which part do you think I didn't understand?
    My point is I don't see this as a part of socialism. You asked me what I meant by socialism.
     
  14. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    What does equate to obtaining wealth? Setting aside the criminal element. How is wealth normally achieved?

    IOW if you were going to tell your son or daughter the key to be wealthy, what would you tell them?
     
  15. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    Ok, without consensus, one has to step up enforcement. Which I think would lead to a loss of freedom. The opposite of what is intended. As long as there is a lot of consensus a lot less enforcement is required. Everyone "agrees" to support the system. The US is much more polemic. Because of this, I think socialism would be a lot less successful in the US.
     
  16. The Reverend Bob

    The Reverend Bob Fart Machine and Beastmaster

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    All you said was I don't agree
     
  17. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Greased up & ready for action!
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    Regardless of the economic system, government always has its
    own interests in mind. To ensure benefit to citizens, they must
    have some control over those in power....some threat to oust'm.
     
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  18. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    I don't disagree here. I'm more interested in how democratic socialism would fix this. Let say I agree, capitalism can be abused by the wealthy. How would democratic socialism prevent this?
     
  19. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Greased up & ready for action!
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    Long ago here, I tried to offer the idea of a "socialism vector", ie,
    a trend of increasing socialism by adopting more elements of it.
    I recall much resistance to the idea.
     
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  20. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    Ideally, democracy provides that threat. I don't know how true that really is though. I think people have learned to rig democracy to limit the threat.

    They only have to impress long enough to get the job. Once they have the job it's really hard to get rid of them. Especially since they get to set all of the rules.
     
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