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Why Socialism is Good?

Discussion in 'North American Politics' started by Nakosis, Jun 17, 2019.

  1. Willamena

    Willamena Just me
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    From Wikipedia:
    Democratic socialism can be characterised as follows:

    • Much property held by the public through a democratically elected government, including most major industries, utilities, and transportation systems
    • A limit on the accumulation of private property
    • Governmental regulation of the economy
    • Extensive publicly financed assistance and pension programs
    • Social costs and the provision of services added to purely financial considerations as the measure of efficiency
    Publicly held property is limited to productive property and significant infrastructure; it does not extend to personal property, homes, and small businesses. And in practice in many democratic socialist countries, it has not extended to many large corporations.​

    Equality takes the form of state regulated services and publically owned infrastructure and facilities.
     
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  2. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    So emphasis on equality over fairness?
     
  3. leov

    leov Well-Known Member
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    Left and right are two sides of the same coin.
     
  4. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    Again emphasis on equality? Or am I wrong about fairness being merit based?
     
  5. Willamena

    Willamena Just me
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    What you call merit-based fairness is basic capitalism.
     
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  6. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    I might agree with you politically, the difference is an illusion? Smoke and mirrors. Still I want to understand if my view of democratic socialism, the US version, is wrong.
     
  7. The Reverend Bob

    The Reverend Bob Fart Machine and Beastmaster

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    What's socialism?
     
  8. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    Yes, that is kind of my view. Just trying to see if I'm wrong.
     
  9. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    That's what I'm asking. Is it different from the OP? I'm trying to understand the view from the left. Why is this something desirable?
     
  10. leov

    leov Well-Known Member
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    In USA? It still is by inertia, Imo.
     
  11. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    If someone wants to move control the economy
    back into the hands of the people, they way has
    been shown, it has worked before.

    Everyone should live on a small family farm,
    and employ only themselves in producing
    any goods.

    Better still, take digging sticks and go forth
    to hunt, and gather.
     
  12. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    I think most understand the evils of European socialism. At least I don't think that is what the Democrats in the US are trying to promote. I think why they promote socialism is because they see it as a system that has the best chance of achieving fairness and equality.

    Ok, I'm not against fairness or equality, just trying to understand how the socialism being promoted by the democratic party in the US would be accomplished.
     
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  13. The Reverend Bob

    The Reverend Bob Fart Machine and Beastmaster

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    What do you mean when you use the word "socialism" because it means something different to me. To me it is when the means of production, its support and distribution is owned and controlled by the community as a emancipatory collective. Now what do you mean by it?
     
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  14. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    I think an Economist is like a physician that after visiting a patient (the economy) prescribes a cure.

    I do believe a fiscal shock (tax cuts, done by Trump) in order to push enterpreneurs to invest was a good idea.

    And we need it here too.
     
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  15. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    To @metis point, Scandinavia is the ideal example. I suspect why it works in Scandinavia is because of a lack of diversity. DIversity is the "nemesis" of socialism. I suspect this is why Scandinavian countries are becoming more anti-immigrant.
    Overwhelmed by Refugee Flows, Scandinavia Tempers its Warm Welcome

    The Scandinavian countries are somewhat homogeneous. People have a common identity so everyone is willing to do their best to help out each other. Smaller groups allows for an easier common identity.

    The assumption is that immigrants will assimilate into this homogeneous identity. Where they can, where they do, no problem. Nobody who accepts membership in a group wants to be a burden on the group. Unfortunately there is enough who don't want to assimilate to where this becomes a problem for the countries who have allowed unrestricted immigration.

    Even if I go to live on a small farm and decide my own interest are more important than the community there's going to be problems. Maybe this community could, begrudgingly deal with my self interest, however if many of "my type" decide to move in we would become a greater burden than the community could afford to keep around.
     
  16. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    We, the US, sees this, the left specifically, as corporate welfare. A moral evil. A redistribution of wealth to the wealthy.
     
  17. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    Basically a path to freedom?
    I see it the same, sans the freedom part.
     
  18. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    Capital investment is a good thing. But giving the capital investors total control of commerce is not, because they inevitably use that control to their own advantage, and to the disadvantage of everyone else engaging in the commercial activity. So the solution is to give everyone involved in a given commercial enterprise some control over how it operates. That means that business would be obliged to share profits, as opposed to passing them all on to the capital investors. And decisions about how the business operates should be shared among those engaged in it, and those effected by it, and not just by the CEO and board of directors; hand chosen to serve the singular goal of the investors: to maximize the profit returned on their investment. Most democratic socialist countries do this by giving equal representation in government to business, labor, and social well-being (involving issues like the environment, public infrastructure, equitable security and opportunity, public health, taxation, human rights, etc.), and then allowing these to work out the practical decisions and solutions of overseeing the course of the nation.
    No one is claiming otherwise. The problem is not that humans invest themselves in commerce unevenly (time, creativity, risk, capital, etc.). The problem is that under capitalism ALL the control is in the hands of the capital investors, alone, and they are not concerned with, nor are they acting upon the well being of anyone else engaging in the commerce that they control.
    Equality, in this instance, refers to equality of opportunity. That means having equal access to education, both basic and advanced. Equal access to the justice system. Equal representation in government. Equal access to health care and security. It means the rich don't get to commodify justice, opportunity, and general health and well-being and then price it out of the reach of everyone else.
    Your view is quite wrong. Capitalism is fundamentally socially destructive because it's nothing more than systematized greed. It pits everyone against everyone else in the pursuit of excessive and undeserved wealth.
     
    #38 PureX, Jun 17, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2019
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  19. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    I have very mixed feelings about immigration.
    I am an immigrant myself, though it is not
    of my doing, I was a minor at the time.

    Its plus and minus for the immigrant, the country
    they left and the country they move to is highly
    varied and complex.

    On socialism, I am deeply suspicious of social
    engineers. How the heck do they know what
    they are doing.
     
  20. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    Our Constitution says 1)Italy is a republic founded upon Labor and 2) the state must eliminate any obstacle that prevents citizens from being assured the right to Labor.
    The rest is just blah blah imho
     
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