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Why shouldn't the mother have the option to abort?

Discussion in 'General Debates' started by Neo-Logic, Jun 5, 2005.

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  1. Yes, abortion should remain legal up to the 2d trimester

    17.3%
  2. Yes, abortion should remain legal, even up to the 3rd trimester

    15.4%
  3. Yes, abortion should remain legal, but only to the 1st trimester

    9.6%
  4. No, abortion should be made illegal because the fetus is a living being

    48.1%
  5. I don't know/others

    9.6%
  1. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    2nd Trimester - which is just over 25 weeks.

    A boy baby was recently delivered here at 24 weeks; after two months in ICU, he has just gone home with his parents. He barely weighed 0.46 Kilos at birth.

    Abortion is up to the mother; but I personally would prefer it limited to cases where, to have the baby would put the mother at risk - from either physical, or psychological trauma.

    Psychological trauma ? - rape for one.:(
     
  2. Neo-Logic

    Neo-Logic Reality Checker

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    Is it fair for the mother to have to carry a child unwantingly for 9 months? Worst case scarnario, the mother could view the fetus as an intruder, something unwanted inside of her, like a parasite. To her, there's no reason why she shouldn't be able to get it out. Afterall, it is apart of her body; living off of her, feeding on what she feeds.
     
  3. Caprice

    Caprice Member

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    Believe that if you wish, but I can assure you I did more than 1% of the work when it came to my wife's pregnancy with our son. Yeah, she might have done the physical work, but a lot of pregnancy has to do with emotional and spiritual work, things a pregnant woman generally needs help with due to the various hormonal situations she faces during the pregnancy.

    What I'm trying to say is, yeah, in the physical act of creation of the baby the man doesn't do that much, but neither does the woman really (it isn't work because it is fun). After the sexual act, then the physical workload does definetly distribute more toward the woman but there are other factors that the man is supposed to be involved in. If he is involved, he too should have rights in my opinion.

    I must admit that I have a hard time understanding why people are so anti-male in everything; men get the shaft in regards to abortion rights, divorce settlements, and child custody rights... and I really think it is a bunch of garbage. Men should pay the price for their mistakes, but women aren't perfect either. :banghead3

    Sure, then just like there is no reason why she shouldn't be able to get it out, there is no reason why I shouldn't be able to say that she's full of crap. Sorry I feel so strongly on the subject, but my baby's life is more important than my wife's or my own to me, and I simply cannot fathom how anyone could think otherwise when they willingly procede in an act that was specifically designed to create babies.
     
  4. Neo-Logic

    Neo-Logic Reality Checker

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    The thing is though, it's not like all the mothers are going to want to abort simply to get a weird cheap thrill out of commiting a supposed "murder" of the fetus and getting away with it. If a mother prompts for an abortion, it would be for good reasons, if not to us, to her at the very least. She may not be ready for a child because of her work, her pursuit of education, financial or time burden that the pregnancy comes with not to mention the physical strain and challenges. We can't and shouldn't be the ones who decide which reasons are actually acceptable enough for abortion and which aren't.
     
  5. Caprice

    Caprice Member

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    These are BS reasons. Yeah, if the baby will most likely kill her, yeah ok fine, I'm not going to stand in her way and I won't critisize her because I'd save my own life before saving most others too honestly. If the baby was created out of rape or something like that I hold that stance too because I can't imagine (and will likely never understand) how it must feel to go thru that. But pursuit of education? Financial issues? Work? Financial and work problems are my way of life and my wife and I still managed. We had sex, ended up pregnant, we are responcible.

    Abortion is used too often as a way to escape responcibility for one's actions, and it is in those cases that I take objection to it. The policy of legal, safe, and rare has lost sight of the "rare" part and replaced it with "whenever".
     
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  6. Neo-Logic

    Neo-Logic Reality Checker

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    Imagine if you were a woman. (If you already are, omit that part because I can't tell from your name ... sorry :eek: ) You are in your prime, so to speak. You just started a high paying job that requires you to move actively and constantly. You have people - both the employer and family - depending on you, financially and professionaly. One day, you find yourself pregnant and now what?

    Or imagine yourself a woman, pursuing a college degree. You're in your last year and 9 months away from graduation. Much money and time was spent getting where you are now. All of a sudden, you're pregnant. Pregnancy would make keeping your part-time job and stuying difficult to say the least.

    Is the possibility of the life of the fetus so important the we as a society will make a woman, in many cases like the ones above, sacrifice hers?


    One could also argue that the statement "abortion is used too often as a way to escape responsibility for one's actions" as another cliche of an argument that is used to force pregnancies on women and possibly effecting their lives in negative ways. We should leave the morality part to the mother and let her deal with it. Let her be the one to figure out whether she wants the child and let her be the one to deal with the morality of the situation and her conscience. Often, mothers really think about their choices, especially with it's the possibility of a baby. If she then chooses that she still wants to go through with abortion, are we really going to, as well as the question, do we really have the right to stop her?

    Well, it's been fun talking with ya Caprice. I'm gonna call it a day for now. Resume this later. *yawn* G' Night :rolleyes:
     
  7. Caprice

    Caprice Member

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    Just a curiosity... you say "One day, you find yourself pregnant" and "All of a sudden, you're pregnant" like the woman in question had no idea that she could become pregnant from having sex. I think it is a given, sex = baby, and you're just lucky (protection or no) if it doesn't happen.

    I'd dare say that the posibilities within the life of the fetus are more important than anything.

    Sex is the thing that effected their life, perhaps in a negative way. The baby is just one possible outcome of that sex, STDs and such are also possibilities. The fetus cannot be reasonably blamed for that which it did not commit, thus it is not the cause of any problem, period.

    Indeed, have a good night buddy :), good discussion (in my opinion).

    :woohoo::woohoo::woohoo:
    I need sleep too, I'm a little goofy tonight, look at the "woohoo guy" and think of Daffy Duck bouncing all over the place. Then and only then will you know how I'm feeling LOL.
     
  8. Quoth The Raven

    Quoth The Raven Half Arsed Muse

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    That's harsh...that's like saying to a woman,'Gee, sorry you're rights and body have been violated and you'll never be the same person again, but hey, having to carry the child of the person who raped you wont be too much worse, will it? I mean, you'll only have a constant reminder of what happened to you for the next nine months; after that you can move on, if in fact you haven't turned into some gibbering loon requiring years of therapy by that stage. Even if you have, it's a relatively small price to pay for that bouncing baby (who you couldn't even actually look at because it reminded you of what happened and the thought makes you throw up)who was violently and viciously forced on you from the very beginning.Yes, I realise the birth of a child should be a thing of joy, and you've been robbed of that entirely and even if you go on to have other children you'll still have been robbed of the joy of your first child, but that's such a little thing really when you have so much other crap to deal with. Build a bridge.'
    I have nothing but respect for women in that position who are capable of differentiating between the rapist and the child and making the choice to continue the pregnancy, but I don't think that's something you can force on a person and think it wont adversely affect them, possibly for the rest of their lives. And if you can realise that it would possibly screw them up for the long term and still feel that they should be forced into that situation, then that's REALLY harsh.
     
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  9. Quoth The Raven

    Quoth The Raven Half Arsed Muse

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    And then we return to the old saw of, if the man has no say when he wants to keep and raise the child and the woman doesn't, then the woman shouldn't be able to keep a child he wants no part of and expect money from him for the upkeep of the child he didn't want.
    While we're getting down to nittygritties, in terms of the 'creation of the fetus', both parties have an equal stake in that. In terms of 'creation of the fetus' I could just as easily say,'well, all she did was lay there with her legs in the air.' Both parties provide half the raw ingredients to make the cake, it's only when it comes to baking that the woman does more than the man.
     
  10. Melody

    Melody Well-Known Member

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    The disagreement over abortion usually comes down to "when does life start?". This one seems to be over the woman's right to do with her body whatever she wants and I would agree if it were only her life...but it's not.

    The argument that it's her body and why should she be burdened with a life she doesn't want for 9 months is probably the most selfish argument I've heard to date. I'm not talking about rape or incest. If a woman chooses to have sex, then she knows there is always the possibility of pregnancy, even when using contraception. It may sound harsh, but so is killing an innocent life, but if she chooses to play, she should deal with the consequences like a responsible adult.

    Mr. Emu....great posts in this thread. Frubals.
     
  11. Melody

    Melody Well-Known Member

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    How can you have a debate and put this argument aside? In the majority of arguments, that is the main line of dispute. Put it aside and the disagreements disappear.
     
  12. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Ought not the woman then to take responsibility for her own actions to ensure that she doesn't become pregnant ? You know, she does have a choice.:)
     
  13. James the Persian

    James the Persian Dreptcredincios Crestin

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    I'd give you frubals but I can't yet. Later.

    The worst thing about this argument is that it can just as easily be used to justify infanticide. A newborn is utterly dependant on its mother for everything - it can't even feed without her. So what's the difference between an utterly dependent unborn child and an utterly dependent newborn? Basically, location. That's it.

    If an unborn child is an (endo)parasite then all birth does is turn it into an exoparasite - very little difference there. If it is, therefore, morally justifiable to kill a 'potential' person in the womb because they are making demands on their unwilling 'host', is it not just as justifiable to do the same to a newborn, and for the same reasons? How many 'pro-choice' activists do you think would admit this? In my experience, I've known one.

    I made much the same argument to my pro-choice (im)moral philosophy lecturer at university. (And for the record I was a died in the wool atheist at the time - logic, not religion guided my morals). He accepted my argument with little more than a shrug. For him the only difference between infanticide and abortion was that the former was illegal. I can admire his honesty, but his morals are, quite frankly, appalling. In my opinion, if someone is unable to accept the morality of killing a newborn then they have no business supporting abortion. If they are able, well...I wonder just what they mean by the word 'morals'.

    James
     
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  14. Lycan

    Lycan Preternatural

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    What kills me about the OP arguement of "forcing" a woman go through the 'burden' of pregnancy is ridiculous. Pregnancy is not some horrid disease... I have been pregnant twice, both times with complications. Most pregnant women don't even know they are pregnant until they are at least 3 mos or so and most don't start to show until they are 6 mos along. So most women may have what 2 mos or so of being slightly uncomfortable... The arguement of "oh, poor baby, you have to go through 9 whole months of an excruciating, horrible ordeal because you can't kill your baby." won't work. She had sex knowing the chance of pregnancy was there with or without contraception and is responsible for the outcome. I mean really for a woman to give up maybe a month and 1/2 (even a full 9 mos) is not too much to ask for even the possibility of 70ish years of another life.
     
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  15. Caprice

    Caprice Member

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    A perspective I had not considered...

    I think it should be put to a vote, at least on a state-by-state basis (federal intervention should have never been neccesary... big fatnasty government is never a good thing).

    I feel quite similar, and while I won't necesarily give a woman hell if she feels and chooses differently, my wife and I have the understanding that I would wish to raise any child she becomes pregnant with regardless of the circumstances of that child's conception. I figure in the end, regardless of my convictions, the choice is still hers, not that I'd have to be happy with it if she made a choice I didn't appreciate. She understands I feel more passionately about this subject than I do anything else... which is part of why she married me actually.
     
  16. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Slightly 'off topic' - there is a programme on television here each day, in which the programme is broadcast from one or two of the bigger London hospitals.

    Last week, there was a case of a woman, who went into the Hospital emmergency unit, with bad stomach ache; two hours later she gave birth to a one month premature little boy - she had no idea she was pregnant, although she had noticed that she was putting on a bit of weight.

    One of the doctors interviewed said that this was a 'very common' occurance (He did'nt quote figures). Imagine that !:eek:
     
  17. Quoth The Raven

    Quoth The Raven Half Arsed Muse

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    There was a similar very well documented case here where the woman was out breaking up concrete with a sledge hammer for most of the day, and she just assumed she's strained her back. The article regarding that said a very similar thing; there are many women who just assume they're gaining a little weight. In my case I LOST about 3-4kg in the first 4 weeks both times, so what I ended up weighing wasn't a lot more than what I was before I got pregnant.
    My sister in law didn't know she was pregnant until she was 7 months along the first time.
     
  18. Stormygale

    Stormygale Member

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    And who are we as a society, if we make abortion illegal, to decide for the mother that she has to incubate an organism inside of her body until birth for 9 months against her very will, undoubtedbly effecting her work and her very way of life? Lets not forget that it is she who has to suffer if it is against her will by having to carry a fetus inside her uterus for 9 whole months.

    Like a girl friend of mine once said, "of course the bunch of guys would think to make abortion illegal, afterall, it's not them that has to carry the fetus for hecka months " :biglaugh:[/QUOTE]WELL DAMN IT ALL!!! She has to own up to her own actions of laying around and having sex!!! Man isn't that a shame!!!:bonk: It's an inconvenence to her, by God, cut it out and throw it over there in the trash can by the operating table!!! It's the babies fault anyway!!
    Yea, I am being a bit sarcastic...lol:rolleyes:
     
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  19. jamaesi

    jamaesi To Save A Lamb

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    I always though that something that is precious or a miracle was something that occured rarely- and close to seven billion isn't exactly a small number. But of course, what you call it makes it sound better, eh? Sort of how Partial-Birth Abortion (which isn't even a medical term) makes people more indignate than Dilation and Extraction.

    But as soon as they infringe on your property and rights, you are allowed to remove them or make them cease.

    There's a huge difference between your neighbors and a foetus. : P

    That's funny, I've been plenty of women who managed their pregnancy without a man and/or by themselves. Don't flatter yourselves, men.

    I also find it hilarious when men or people who haven't been raped say that it won't really bother the woman that much to have to carry a constant reminder of what happened to them. Oh, my sides hurt from laughing.



    There's usually a good reason a woman wants to abort and it's not because they love to kill. Some of you may not think that careers or education or fincial status or being single matters, but it does. The lower the education status and the poorer the mother is, the more likely that precious little miracle is going to turn out the same way, or even grow up to be a criminal (even more so when it's a single parent house).




    I find myself wondering where the outrage is for the poor suffering children in Africa, or the little children sold as sex slaves in Asia, or even the uneducated children who live in poverty in well developed countries- but they're no longer "potential precious life" and therefore *yawn!*.

    I can look out my bedroom window here and see poor children who live in poverty and will live in poverty for their entire lives and will grow up to have children who will live in poverty and continue the cycle or just become criminals- it's not safe to walk alone in the city even during the day and even in the main parts of town.

    If you all want, I could take pictures for you. : ) You can see the dirt houses all jammed together with no windows or doors or electricity or clean water or food inside the house and all the people inside poor and uneducated and illiterate.



    All the outrage seems to be saved for the foetus.
     
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  20. DreamQuickBook

    DreamQuickBook Active Member

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    Why don't we just kill the poor and drug addicted? That way they won't have children they have to abort and we won't have poor or drug addicted people.




    *if you can't sense the sarcasm... shut up*
     
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