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Why should we care?

MonkeyFire

Well-Known Member
Not sure what you mean? Do you mean that I suffer do to my lack of belief as I loose something or end up in hell? And as a non believer Im cheating those that believe, not really sure what you mean?

Dis-believers cheat on love with sex...
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Thank you for proving my third paragraph so well.

You even try equating a young child's NATURAL feelings of empathy and compassion the same as something shameful. WOW!

But your comments make me now understand why you don't get what I'm saying, empathy and compassion are foreign concepts to you. For if you had developed them, you would know that no outside validation is required, religious or otherwise. Like going back to the slavery issue where this all started, those who thought slavery was wrong due to their empathy and compassion still helped the slaves escape even though they were surrounded by hordes of religious people who felt slavery was fine and would kill anyone helping them escape. And that's completely true, as they would have been hanged.
Please don't misrepresent my views.

I believe there is a God who directed evolution. The empathy we have and the ideas of justice that we have evolved are as he planned. Evolution is his modus operendi of creation. And it continues. Therefore, having a good sense of empathy is not nothing, but a very, very good thing -- something to be thankful for, and something to be nourished as much as possible.

My remark was simply to indicate that for those who do not believe in a God, these things which evolve, such as empathy, are not better or worse. They are simply adaptations to environment. Had environment been different, we would have less empathy -- and in fact it does seem that there is a lot of competition for the selfish genes. Those who are on the OTHER side of empathy say you and I are just chumps waiting to be taken advantage of. Evolution we tell. But again, without God, there is no value put on what evolves.
 

Ancient Soul

The Spiritual Universe
There are certainly some people who are empathy geniuses, who are going to be against such things as slavery simply based on their own perceptions. I'll agree with you there.

But in most cases, atheists pick up their ethics from the culture in which they are raised, just like everyone else, which is always influenced by religion.

I am personally very happy to hear that you have such a highly developed sense of empathy. Our biological sense of empathy and justice are the groundwork for natural ethics.

However, without an external objective source to tell us that this sense of empathy and justice is accurate and good, it is no more reliable then our libido or drive for power and want of unecessary things.

Please don't misrepresent my views.

I believe there is a God who directed evolution. The empathy we have and the ideas of justice that we have evolved are as he planned. Evolution is his modus operendi of creation. And it continues. Therefore, having a good sense of empathy is not nothing, but a very, very good thing -- something to be thankful for, and something to be nourished as much as possible.

My remark was simply to indicate that for those who do not believe in a God, these things which evolve, such as empathy, are not better or worse. They are simply adaptations to environment. Had environment been different, we would have less empathy -- and in fact it does seem that there is a lot of competition for the selfish genes. Those who are on the OTHER side of empathy say you and I are just chumps waiting to be taken advantage of. Evolution we tell. But again, without God, there is no value put on what evolves.

I reposted your thread of comments on this subject for others to see how this is going.

I have not misrepresented your views one bit.

You keep ignoring my statements without even reading them it seems. Or maybe you lack reading comprehension, or have no personal feelings of empathy or compassion yourself, I don't know which.

So let me try this example again:

"But your comments make me now understand why you don't get what I'm saying, empathy and compassion are foreign concepts to you. For if you had developed them, you would know that no outside validation is required, religious or otherwise. Like going back to the slavery issue where this all started, those who thought slavery was wrong due to their empathy and compassion still helped the slaves escape even though they were surrounded by hordes of religious people who felt slavery was fine and would kill anyone helping them escape. And that's completely true, as they would have been hanged."

Now I tried to word it plainly enough, but you still don't seem to get it.

They did this out of empathy and compassion and thought slavery was just plain cruel and wrong, so took actions to help slaves escape even though they could be hanged if caught. No outside validation was required for them to know that it was wrong, and they had to make it right by helping their fellow man. So your argument falls flat, especially given that they were surrounded by mostly Christians who thought slavery was a "right" under their religion, that's why they passed laws to hang anyone who helps any slaves escape. So if they needed outside validation from religions as you claim, they would NOT have done the right thing and helped them escape, but done nothing instead. Now if you cannot comprehend that, you are hopeless.

I do want to make note on your clever change of wording. You started out insisting that ONLY thru religions would anyone know empathy, compassion, or right from wrong. Now you are switching tracks by trying to change your stance that only "God" is needed. Did you think I would miss your changing that?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
So again, think it could be interesting to hear why religious people care about what their God think?
I care because I believe that God knows what is best for me and for the rest of humanity and I believe that is why God sends Messengers to humanity throughout the ages.

It does not affect God if we choose not to worship Him. Baha’u’llah made it perfectly clear that God has no needs since God is self-sufficient, thus God cannot have a “need” to be worshiped.

“This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future. Let him that seeketh, attain it; and as to him that hath refused to seek it—verily, God is Self-Sufficient, above any need of His creatures.” Gleanings, p. 136

God does not demand worship, God enjoins us to worship Him, and that is only for our own benefit, not for God’s benefit.

“The one true God, exalted be His glory, hath wished nothing for Himself. The allegiance of mankind profiteth Him not, neither doth its perversity harm Him. The Bird of the Realm of Utterance voiceth continually this call: “All things have I willed for thee, and thee, too, for thine own sake.” Gleanings, p. 260

According to the Writings of Baha’u’llah, God does care, but God needs nothing for Himself because God is self-sufficient, above having needs as humans have.

So another reason for us to care what God thinks is because God cares about us even though God does not need us. If we do not care about God, that is like throwing what God has given us back in God's Face.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Please note that I do not apply the same standard to atheists since they do not believe that God exists. :D

By the way, it is nice to see you again, @ Nimos. I always enjoy your posts. :)
I have not been well,so I have not been around the forum much. :(
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
I care because I believe that God knows what is best for me and for the rest of humanity and I believe that is why God sends Messengers to humanity throughout the ages.

It does not affect God if we choose not to worship Him. Baha’u’llah made it perfectly clear that God has no needs since God is self-sufficient, thus God cannot have a “need” to be worshiped.

“This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future. Let him that seeketh, attain it; and as to him that hath refused to seek it—verily, God is Self-Sufficient, above any need of His creatures.” Gleanings, p. 136

God does not demand worship, God enjoins us to worship Him, and that is only for our own benefit, not for God’s benefit.

“The one true God, exalted be His glory, hath wished nothing for Himself. The allegiance of mankind profiteth Him not, neither doth its perversity harm Him. The Bird of the Realm of Utterance voiceth continually this call: “All things have I willed for thee, and thee, too, for thine own sake.” Gleanings, p. 260

According to the Writings of Baha’u’llah, God does care, but God needs nothing for Himself because God is self-sufficient, above having needs as humans have.

So another reason for us to care what God thinks is because God cares about us even though God does not need us. If we do not care about God, that is like throwing what God has given us back in God's Face.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Please note that I do not apply the same standard to atheists since they do not believe that God exists. :D

By the way, it is nice to see you again, @ Nimos. I always enjoy your posts. :)
I have not been well,so I have not been around the forum much. :(
Good to see you again Trailblazer, my teacher of the Bahai faith :D

Hope you are getting well soon.

Just wondering what you mean with you not applying the same standard to atheists since we don't believe in God?

Also do Bahais believe in hell? and what happens to an atheist when they die, because couldn't help thinking that, if you as Bahai believe in an afterlife, sort of like heaven or something. Which is where you will end up when the time comes, will an atheist then end up there as well?

Because as you write: "God does not demand worship, God enjoins us to worship Him, and that is only for our own benefit, not for God’s benefit." So if he doesn't demand it, but the afterlife is considered amazing, shouldn't atheists be given that as well on equal terms with any other Bahai, since God doesn't demand worship?
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Good to see you again Trailblazer, my teacher of the Bahai faith :D

Hope you are getting well soon.
I hope so too, but since I really do not know exactly what caused the onset of my symptoms, I do not know what will happen. There does not seem to be a physical cause to my sudden brain fog, but I will be seeing the doctor again next week to discuss my blood work and symptoms.
Just wondering what you mean with you not applying the same standard to atheists since we don't believe in God?
I meant that you cannot be expected to worship a God you do not believe exists.
Also do Bahais believe in hell? and what happens to an atheist when they die, because couldn't help thinking that, if you as Bahai believe in an afterlife, sort of like heaven or something. Which is where you will end up when the time comes, will an atheist then end up there as well?
Bahais do not believe hell is a place we go after we die, but rather both heaven and hell are a state of the soul -- heaven is nearness to God and hell is distance from God. Nearness to God comes from knowing God and loving God, so conversely, distance from God comes from not knowing God because if one does not know God one cannot love God.
Because as you write: "God does not demand worship, God enjoins us to worship Him, and that is only for our own benefit, not for God’s benefit." So if he doesn't demand it, but the afterlife is considered amazing, shouldn't atheists be given that as well on equal terms with any other Bahai, since God doesn't demand worship?
Even though God does not demand worship, that being a free will choice, we do not get the "benefits" of worship unless we worship. Thus atheists are not going to get the benefits that believers get because they won't be on equal terms. Moreover, even Baha'is will be on different levels in the afterlife, based upon their faith and conduct.

"The people of Bahá, who are the inmates of the Ark of God, are, one and all, well aware of one another’s state and condition, and are united in the bonds of intimacy and fellowship. Such a state, however, must depend upon their faith and their conduct. They that are of the same grade and station are fully aware of one another’s capacity, character, accomplishments and merits. They that are of a lower grade, however, are incapable of comprehending adequately the station, or of estimating the merits, of those that rank above them. Each shall receive his share from thy Lord. Blessed is the man that hath turned his face towards God, and walked steadfastly in His love, until his soul hath winged its flight unto God, the Sovereign Lord of all, the Most Powerful, the Ever-Forgiving, the All-Merciful." Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 169-170

All that said, the afterlife is a mystery, so nobody really knows what happens after we die. Baha'u'llah wrote somewhere that some fruit only ripens after it falls from the tree, which could mean that some people might only come to to believe in God after they die.

The following quote shows just how important good actions are.

Question.—It is said in the Kitáb-i-Aqdas “…whoso is deprived thereof, hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed.” What is the meaning of this verse?
Answer.—This blessed verse means that the foundation of success and salvation is the knowledge of God, and that the results of the knowledge of God are the good actions which are the fruits of faith.

If man has not this knowledge, he will be separated from God, and when this separation exists, good actions have not complete effect. This verse does not mean that the souls separated from God are equal, whether they perform good or bad actions. It signifies only that the foundation is to know God, and the good actions result from this knowledge. Nevertheless, it is certain that between the good, the sinners and the wicked who are veiled from God there is a difference. For the veiled one who has good principles and character deserves the pardon of God, while he who is a sinner, and has bad qualities and character, is deprived of the bounties and blessings of God. Herein lies the difference. Some Answered Questions, p. 238


 

Ancient Soul

The Spiritual Universe
Good to see you again Trailblazer, my teacher of the Bahai faith :D

Hope you are getting well soon.

Just wondering what you mean with you not applying the same standard to atheists since we don't believe in God?

Also do Bahais believe in hell? and what happens to an atheist when they die, because couldn't help thinking that, if you as Bahai believe in an afterlife, sort of like heaven or something. Which is where you will end up when the time comes, will an atheist then end up there as well?

Because as you write: "God does not demand worship, God enjoins us to worship Him, and that is only for our own benefit, not for God’s benefit." So if he doesn't demand it, but the afterlife is considered amazing, shouldn't atheists be given that as well on equal terms with any other Bahai, since God doesn't demand worship?

True, God does not demand worship.

But all people must spiritually evolve until they have reached the level required to pass God's judgment, and then go to exist as a purely spiritual energy entity. Atheists will just take going thru many more life cycles until they are able to pass God's judgment. Everybody figures it out eventually, no matter how long it takes, God is patient, he has all eternity to wait for everyone to catch up.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
But all people must spiritually evolve until they have reached the level required to pass God's judgment, and then go to exist as a purely spiritual energy entity. Atheists will just take going thru many more life cycles until they are able to pass God's judgment. Everybody figures it out eventually, no matter how long it takes, God is patient, he has all eternity to wait for everyone to catch up.
I believe that all people have the potential to spiritually evolve, throughout eternity.

I do not believe in a 'necessary level' required to pass God's judgment.

I believe we become take on a spiritual form as soon as our souls cross over to the spiritual world.

I do not believe in life cycles because I do not believe in reincarnation

I do not believe atheists will take going through many more life cycles than believers.

I believe everyone is an individual so we all have our own individual spiritual paths.

I believe that souls who are veiled from God continue to exist in the world after death, but they are, in comparison with the existence of the children of the Kingdom of God, as non-existing.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I reposted your thread of comments on this subject for others to see how this is going.

I have not misrepresented your views one bit.

You keep ignoring my statements without even reading them it seems. Or maybe you lack reading comprehension, or have no personal feelings of empathy or compassion yourself, I don't know which.

So let me try this example again:

"But your comments make me now understand why you don't get what I'm saying, empathy and compassion are foreign concepts to you. For if you had developed them, you would know that no outside validation is required, religious or otherwise. Like going back to the slavery issue where this all started, those who thought slavery was wrong due to their empathy and compassion still helped the slaves escape even though they were surrounded by hordes of religious people who felt slavery was fine and would kill anyone helping them escape. And that's completely true, as they would have been hanged."

Now I tried to word it plainly enough, but you still don't seem to get it.

They did this out of empathy and compassion and thought slavery was just plain cruel and wrong, so took actions to help slaves escape even though they could be hanged if caught. No outside validation was required for them to know that it was wrong, and they had to make it right by helping their fellow man. So your argument falls flat, especially given that they were surrounded by mostly Christians who thought slavery was a "right" under their religion, that's why they passed laws to hang anyone who helps any slaves escape. So if they needed outside validation from religions as you claim, they would NOT have done the right thing and helped them escape, but done nothing instead. Now if you cannot comprehend that, you are hopeless.

I do want to make note on your clever change of wording. You started out insisting that ONLY thru religions would anyone know empathy, compassion, or right from wrong. Now you are switching tracks by trying to change your stance that only "God" is needed. Did you think I would miss your changing that?
No, I never said that only through religion can one know empathy. Empathy and justice are biological instincts. Even chimps have rudimentary empathy and the idea of justice. But it does take religion to know the higher level ethical applications.

I continue to stand by what I've said, despite your misrepresentation of me.
 

Ancient Soul

The Spiritual Universe
No, I never said that only through religion can one know empathy. Empathy and justice are biological instincts. Even chimps have rudimentary empathy and the idea of justice. But it does take religion to know the higher level ethical applications.

I continue to stand by what I've said, despite your misrepresentation of me.

Still trying that tactic even after I re-posted your very own words?

You started off claiming that ONLY by religions would one know right from wrong.

"I" am the one who brought up the fact that "right and wrong" is mostly based upon empathy and compassion. But from all of your responses it is clear that you have no idea what true empathy and/or compassion is all about, so I lost you there. For if you did, you would know how it leads to choices of right and wrong all by itself, no outside religious validation is needed.
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
Even though God does not demand worship, that being a free will choice, we do not get the "benefits" of worship unless we worship. Thus atheists are not going to get the benefits that believers get because they won't be on equal terms. Moreover, even Baha'is will be on different levels in the afterlife, based upon their faith and conduct.
But isn't that sort of the same?

Like imagine im God and in front of me is standing 1000 girls:

"Listen up everyone, please be quite for a second, have some important thing to say!! I love all you equally, regardless of whether you have short or long hair. How you choose to wear your hair is completely up to you and is the free choice I give all of you, because as a loving God I couldn't care less, it is what is within you that counts.

However if all those with hair shorter than to the shoulders, could make room, so those with longer hair can all come with me, that would be great!!.... Now, its not because I don't value you as much as them or think you are not equal in all ways. Its just that there is only so much space in the VIP section of heaven, so you know..... Now if those that are bold, could move all the way to the back, that would be very much appreciated, so those with short hair can get in next, as we are starting to get filled up in here. And again, I really love all of you equally, so don't think I make a difference here, but please, if you are bold give space to the those with short hair..."

Isn't that pretty much what you are arguing for here? Its seems to work pretty much like the exact opposite of being punished. But rather if you "freely" choose to worship God... oh boy are you going to get a first class seat with everything you desire. :D
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
But isn't that sort of the same?

Like imagine im God and in front of me is standing 1000 girls:

"Listen up everyone, please be quite for a second, have some important thing to say!! I love all you equally, regardless of whether you have short or long hair. How you choose to wear your hair is completely up to you and is the free choice I give all of you, because as a loving God I couldn't care less, it is what is within you that counts.

However if all those with hair shorter than to the shoulders, could make room, so those with longer hair can all come with me, that would be great!!.... Now, its not because I don't value you as much as them or think you are not equal in all ways. Its just that there is only so much space in the VIP section of heaven, so you know..... Now if those that are bold, could move all the way to the back, that would be very much appreciated, so those with short hair can get in next, as we are starting to get filled up in here. And again, I really love all of you equally, so don't think I make a difference here, but please, if you are bold give space to the those with short hair..."

Isn't that pretty much what you are arguing for here? Its seems to work pretty much like the exact opposite of being punished. But rather if you "freely" choose to worship God... oh boy are you going to get a first class seat with everything you desire. :D
There is no punishment from God for failing to worship God, any punishment is self-inflicted. You just do not get the reward you could have had so the punishment is simply missing out on the reward you could have had. As Baha'u'llah put it:

“He who shall accept and believe, shall receive his reward; and he who shall turn away, shall receive none other than his own punishment.” Gleanings, p. 339









. So any punishmet yongttev will just ge not getting tge reares.
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
There is no punishment from God for failing to worship God, any punishment is self-inflicted. You just do not get the reward you could have had so the punishment is simply missing out on the reward you could have had. As Baha'u'llah put it:

“He who shall accept and believe, shall receive his reward; and he who shall turn away, shall receive none other than his own punishment.” Gleanings, p. 339

. So any punishmet yongttev will just ge not getting tge reares.

But saying that it is self inflicted is not really fair is it. Because me not believing in God is based on me not accepting the evidence being presented to me, as being strong enough for holding such believe. How can that be my fault?

God have had an eternity to plan how he wanted to deliver or present these evidence to us, so that they might convince us. And yet throughout history you have had thousands of different religions, all claiming to know the truth. And I wouldn't even blame these people for not being able to do it either. Because the way God have chosen to reveal these informations are so poorly executed, that its not fair to blame any human for not believing or choosing the wrong religion.

And I really don't see the difference between the way you claim it works and that of a discount membership to a shop, where you get a discount of 20% on everything you buy, if you just pay X amount of money each month. Its sort of like a carrot on a stick approach if you ask me. :)
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
But saying that it is self inflicted is not really fair is it. Because me not believing in God is based on me not accepting the evidence being presented to me, as being strong enough for holding such believe. How can that be my fault?
It is not intentionally self-inflicted but nonetheless it comes from yourself since it is based upon your free will.
I was not implying it is your fault.

Life is not fair. Why some people SEE the evidence for God's existence and other people do not see it is not fully known although there are reasons, given atheists have certain ways of thinking that they share in common.
God have had an eternity to plan how he wanted to deliver or present these evidence to us, so that they might convince us. And yet throughout history you have had thousands of different religions, all claiming to know the truth. And I wouldn't even blame these people for not being able to do it either. Because the way God have chosen to reveal these informations are so poorly executed, that its not fair to blame any human for not believing or choosing the wrong religion
So here is one of those reasons why you cannot believe in God. You do not accept His Method of communication, which is Messengers. and apparently you think there is a better way that God could have chosen to communicate.

There is a perfectly logical explanation for all the different religions, why we needed them at certain times in human history. Granted, without the Baha'i patadigm it would not make any sense at all, humanity is no longer without the Baha'i paradigm, so that cannot be used as an excuse.
And I really don't see the difference between the way you claim it works and that of a discount membership to a shop, where you get a discount of 20% on everything you buy, if you just pay X amount of money each month. Its sort of like a carrot on a stick approach if you ask me. :)
I don't think I understand your analogy. o_O How is the use of Messengers a combination of reward and punishment to induce a desired behavior?
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Still trying that tactic even after I re-posted your very own words?

You started off claiming that ONLY by religions would one know right from wrong..
Look, I know what I believe. I have tried to communicate that to you. You seem to have been confused by the vagueness of my earlier communications, so I clarified. There is no reason for you to continue to insist I have claimed a position that I do not claim. Sheesh
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
I don't think I understand your analogy. o_O How is the use of Messengers a combination of reward and punishment to induce a desired behavior?
Imagine im God (again) :D and you are standing in front of me and have to choose between two doors, you don't know where they are leading you, but you have to make a choice. But I as God, prefer that you take the left door, but makes it clear to you, that having free will, I won't prevent you from making up your own mind.

However before you choose, I just want to make you aware, that if you go for the right door, you will burn in hell for eternity and through the left door, you will live forever and be very happy... now what would you choose?

Turning that around.... Rather than telling you that hell is behind the right door. I tell you that, you are not really going to be all that happy, you will live forever, but its a bit of a sad and barren place. However behind the left door, you have swimming pools, lots of entertainment, enough to keep you satisfied for eternity and you would be happy constantly.

One approach uses fear to manipulate you, the other just uses an overwhelming amount of promises, that one would be stupid not to choose, over the other.

So when you say that those that do not accept God, is not going to be given the option to choose the left door, because they chose not to accept what they are being told. is why I referred to it, as a carrot on a stick approach, if you make an illusion of one thing being clearly better than something else, obviously people would choose that, if they don't stop up and question whether that is even a choice they have to make.

It simply draw attention away from what the original issue were, which were the claim that there even is two doors to choose from in the first place. And that is were atheists are stopping up, its not because we do not understand why it would make sense to choose heaven over hell (in this example), its that we are not even sure that this choice is something that has to be made, before someone can actually show that these doors exists to begin with.

Hope it makes sense?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Look, I know what I believe. I have tried to communicate that to you. You seem to have been confused by the vagueness of my earlier communications, so I clarified. There is no reason for you to continue to insist I have claimed a position that I do not claim. Sheesh
Some people just like to create straw men to argue against....
Some people just cannot admit when they are wrong about other people....
Sheesh.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
So when you say that those that do not accept God, is not going to be given the option to choose the left door, because they chose not to accept what they are being told. is why I referred to it, as a carrot on a stick approach, if you make an illusion of one thing being clearly better than something else, obviously people would choose that, if they don't stop up and question whether that is even a choice they have to make.

It simply draw attention away from what the original issue were, which were the claim that there even is two doors to choose from in the first place. And that is were atheists are stopping up, its not because we do not understand why it would make sense to choose heaven over hell (in this example), its that we are not even sure that this choice is something that has to be made, before someone can actually show that these doors exists to begin with.

Hope it makes sense?
Yes, that makes sense and so I am glad I asked. One door often leads to another so if I had not asked I would not know. :)

So let me see if I can capture the meaning of what you said correctly.
You would choose heaven over hell if you knew heaven and hell existed, but since you do not know it would be like believing in something imaginary.... So you want proof that heaven exists before you are going to be willing to invest all your money in its vast real estate holdings. :D

Before I proceed further,I think you need to understand what heaven and hell are from a Baha'i perspective, and it just so happens this article came in my e-mail today. (I get these BahaiTeachings.org - Personal perspectives inspired by Baha'i teachings articles daily.)

The Myths of Hell and Eternal Damnation

So, since nearness to God is heaven, the logical next step is to try to figure out how we can get near to God.
Obviously, we would have to believe that God exists first and then we would have to know something about God (e.g. that God is just and loving) in order to desire nearness to God.
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
You would choose heaven over hell if you knew heaven and hell existed, but since you do not know it would be like believing in something imaginary.... So you want proof that heaven exists before you are going to be willing to invest all your money in its vast real estate holdings. :D
Yeah that is basically it :D

Before I proceed further,I think you need to understand what heaven and hell are from a Baha'i perspective, and it just so happens this article came in my e-mail today. (I get these BahaiTeachings.org - Personal perspectives inspired by Baha'i teachings articles daily.)
I read it, and since I like norse mythology I couldn't help to notice a few things I believe is wrong, not that its a huge deal I think. But you might find it interesting or entertaining regardless :)

Hel were a Goddess and not a demon, I don't really think they believed in them, but rather in souls or something like that. The closest I think you can get to a demon, is what is know as a Mare, which would haunt people or animals by riding them and give them "bad" dreams, why the quotation marks will make more sense in a bit :). But is why "nightmare" in danish is called a "mareridt", and might even be where the "-mare" in nightmare comes from as well. But that is just me guessing.

However a Mare were usually a female dream creature, which would have sex/ride the person. But have changed a bit over time, exactly how they were suppose to be, as far as I understand.

However from an old scandinavian saga the story goes like this:

"A boy was very bothered by nightmares. He was then advised to close all the cracks and openings in his room where he slept. Only one hole should remain open, and he should close it while the Mare rode him. Next time, he got a nightmare, he plugged the hole, and when he woke, a naked girl were laying in the bed next to him. They got married and had many children. But once when they cleaned the room he unplugged the hole. Immediately the girl disappeared out of the hole and he never saw her again."

It is correct that people dying of old ages etc. would end up with Hel, but would not spend an eternity there, but would be free after Ragnarok.

Which might sound weird, because it is normally understood as the final battle in Norse mythology and the end of everything, but actually after Ragnarok, this is how the story goes:

.....The runes told them of a heaven that was above Asgard, of Gimli, that was untouched by Surtur's fire. Vili and Ve, Will and Holiness, ruled in it. Baldur and Hödur came from Hela's habitation, and the Gods sat on the peak together and held speech with each other, calling to mind the secrets and the happenings they had known before Ragnarök, the Twilight of the Gods.

Deep in a wood two of human kind were left; the fire of Surtur did not touch them; they slept, and when they wakened the world was green and beautiful again. These two fed on the dews of the morning; a woman and a man they were, Lif and Lifthrasir. They walked abroad in the world, and from them and from their children came the men and women who spread themselves over the earth.


Without going into all of it. Ragnarok, is sort of like how the Gods or most of them sacrifice themselves and their world, to rid the evil from what will come after. So compared to Jesus being resurrected, I think this is more what a sacrifice is suppose to be :D

What said Odin to the Gods and to the Champions who surrounded him? "We will give our lives and let our world be destroyed, but we will battle so that these evil powers will not live after us.

So, since nearness to God is heaven, the logical next step is to try to figure out how we can get near to God.
Obviously, we would have to believe that God exists first and then we would have to know something about God (e.g. that God is just and loving) in order to desire nearness to God.
Yes exactly, even if the idea of what hell is or isn't suppose to be. The initial problem is still the same for an atheist. Whether its like you so excellent put it...:

"So you want proof that heaven exists before you are going to be willing to invest all your money in its vast real estate holdings. :D"

or whether its, "Why should one invest time getting to know God, if we don't even know if he exist?"
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Yeah that is basically it :D

I read it, and since I like norse mythology I couldn't help to notice a few things I believe is wrong, not that its a huge deal I think. But you might find it interesting or entertaining regardless :)

Hel were a Goddess and not a demon, I don't really think they believed in them, but rather in souls or something like that. The closest I think you can get to a demon, is what is know as a Mare, which would haunt people or animals by riding them and give them "bad" dreams, why the quotation marks will make more sense in a bit :). But is why "nightmare" in danish is called a "mareridt", and might even be where the "-mare" in nightmare comes from as well. But that is just me guessing.

However a Mare were usually a female dream creature, which would have sex/ride the person. But have changed a bit over time, exactly how they were suppose to be, as far as I understand.

However from an old scandinavian saga the story goes like this:

"A boy was very bothered by nightmares. He was then advised to close all the cracks and openings in his room where he slept. Only one hole should remain open, and he should close it while the Mare rode him. Next time, he got a nightmare, he plugged the hole, and when he woke, a naked girl were laying in the bed next to him. They got married and had many children. But once when they cleaned the room he unplugged the hole. Immediately the girl disappeared out of the hole and he never saw her again."

It is correct that people dying of old ages etc. would end up with Hel, but would not spend an eternity there, but would be free after Ragnarok.

Which might sound weird, because it is normally understood as the final battle in Norse mythology and the end of everything, but actually after Ragnarok, this is how the story goes:

.....The runes told them of a heaven that was above Asgard, of Gimli, that was untouched by Surtur's fire. Vili and Ve, Will and Holiness, ruled in it. Baldur and Hödur came from Hela's habitation, and the Gods sat on the peak together and held speech with each other, calling to mind the secrets and the happenings they had known before Ragnarök, the Twilight of the Gods.

Deep in a wood two of human kind were left; the fire of Surtur did not touch them; they slept, and when they wakened the world was green and beautiful again. These two fed on the dews of the morning; a woman and a man they were, Lif and Lifthrasir. They walked abroad in the world, and from them and from their children came the men and women who spread themselves over the earth.


Without going into all of it. Ragnarok, is sort of like how the Gods or most of them sacrifice themselves and their world, to rid the evil from what will come after. So compared to Jesus being resurrected, I think this is more what a sacrifice is suppose to be :D
Thanks for sharing your Norse mythology. It is interesting and entertaining. :)
Trailblazer said: So, since nearness to God is heaven, the logical next step is to try to figure out how we can get near to God.
Obviously, we would have to believe that God exists first and then we would have to know something about God (e.g. that God is just and loving) in order to desire nearness to God.


Yes exactly, even if the idea of what hell is or isn't suppose to be. The initial problem is still the same for an atheist. Whether its like you so excellent put it...:

"So you want proof that heaven exists before you are going to be willing to invest all your money in its vast real estate holdings. :D"

or whether its, "Why should one invest time getting to know God, if we don't even know if he exist?"
Yes, I understand the problem. I think the only "possible solution" is to want to know if God exists and continue searching for evidence :).
 
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