Why should we care?

[Nimos]

But all those things were still wrong, even thought they were legal. Why? Because they were wrong according to God.

Not to interfere in your discussion. But just to clarify, according to the bible (OT), it was no problem according to God to have slaves, you just couldn't have Jewish/Hebrew slaves.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Trying to follow you here, so you would agree that little to no difference is observable between, lets say a convinced Christian and an atheist when it comes to moral standards?

Because I would assume that if those people that were convinced of the moral standards giving to us by God, assuming that this is actually true. Would be far superior in moral behaviour than an atheist would. While at the same time, be able to pretty much wipe the floor in a moral debate with an atheist. Because of the mere fact that these moral objective standards came from God. But I don't really think that is case, not saying that a religious person as such have worse moral standards than an atheist, but that in some cases such person would have to defend some of the morals stated in their scriptures, which does not always seems all that easy, when it comes to what most people consider to be morally good.
Whereas an atheist doesn't really have to follow anything, but can freely argue their case based on how they think or believe things are or ought to be,

Like with the example of abortions.

A dedicated devout philosophical atheist is an unusual creature. The truth is that he is MORE likely to be devoted to moral principles, even though it is irrational, mainly because he has a moral world view that atheism is more advanced, and that would include more morally advanced as well. He is at least as moral, statistically, as the highly devout religious person.

It's the religiously nominal person, the "nones," the "spiritual not religious" who are more likely to find excuses why moral laws don't apply to them in their unique situation. They are inclined not to put in the effort behind the beliefs at best, and to just plain not care about religious and moral matters at worst. Life for them is about being happy, not about being good.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Not to interfere in your discussion. But just to clarify, according to the bible (OT), it was no problem according to God to have slaves, you just couldn't have Jewish/Hebrew slaves.

It was more akin to indentured servitude. There were so many rules covering the treatment of slaves that it was joked about that a person lucked out to be a slave. And a foreign slave could leave at any time and go back to being a regular person -- if they were unhappy and left to return to their homeland, the rule was to let them go and not follow them or bring them back.

For all these reason, it was basically economically unfeasible to own slaves, and the practice died out of its own accord among observant Jews.

 

[Ayjaydee]

But all those things were still wrong, even thought they were legal. Why? Because they were wrong according to God. A society saying they are okay cannot overrule God. And those who follow God know this.

For example,during the days we slavery was legal and entrenched, there was always a small remnant of people who advocated its demise based on moral grounds, who appealed to the teaching of the Torah that every human being had innate dignity because they were created in the image of God. Sure, slavers tried to say that slavery was moral based on the Bible's tolerance of indentured servitude. But the abolitionists rightly spotted the DEEPER understanding of the principle of the Dignity of all human beings.

I didnt say they right, I said we have been living with that fact of society and the rights of the people living in society
You asked me if I can live with that kind of society and the answer is OBVIOUS. I AM living with that kind of society. And you pointed out so well, we continue to live in those societies UNTIL SOCIETY DECIDES TO CHANGE THE LAW. Gods had nothing to do with it

 

[osgart]

If there is no God, aka no outside objective source of moral behavior telling you that harming others is bad, then all you have are animal instincts/biology making you reluctant to harm. You have no real REASON to be kind unless it serves your purposes.

To be moral, is to be logical about what is good, and what is not. Morality does serve purposes. There are good, and justifiable reasons to be moral whether God exists or not. And to abide and love the right things is to be moral.

If I explore the meaning of honesty and come up with an accurate meaning for it then I find that morals are objectively realized if someone truly wills to know them. Anyone can discover and come up with morality that is true and honorable if they seek it earnestly.

Morality incorporates well meant meanings. I can discover those meanings even without there being a God.

If there is a God of those meanings all the more wonderful.

 

[Nimos]

It's the religiously nominal person, the "nones," the "spiritual not religious" who are more likely to find excuses why moral laws don't apply to them in their unique situation. They are inclined not to put in the effort behind the beliefs at best, and to just plain not care about religious and moral matters at worst. Life for them is about being happy, not about being good.

But would one that believe the scriptures, still not have to defend at least to some point, these objective moral standards put forward by God and how one is suppose to see them as good?

Im not saying that you can't find certain good moral standards in the scriptures, so im merely referring to those in which most humans have come to see them as bad standards.

One could obviously argue that these standards were created for the ancient jews at that period of time when the covenant were made. But if no other or new moral standards are given to us, then how should we know them and how should we know that they were good? Because I think most would agree that these standards have changed other time by human hands.

So to me it seems that as human civilization evolves so does out moral understanding, yet it doesn't seem like God is really keeping up, if that makes sense. We still only have these old ones. Yet we as humans do not know whether our moral standards are particular good, compared to what they could be as they are constant evolving, so it might be that in 200 years, people will look back at some of the things we do now and judge us as we are judging those from the past as well.

To me, that makes rather good sense, but the issue is the moment you throw in an all powerful God that is said to be the creator of these standards then I think it sort of changes things, because then why are we trying to improve on them, if they have already been decided, but just not given to us? or at least not to an extend where we can clearly understand and agree on them.

 

[Ancient Soul]

I respect that as I have actually been very close to dying two times my self. Once when I was little (around 5-6 I think) and I ate an ice cube and decided to run while eating it. So it got stuck in my throat so I couldn't breath and were unable to clear it. It just happen to occur directly outside the house of where a doctor lived in them street where I grew up. And he ran out and lifted me from the ground in my legs and slammed me on the back so it came out. If he had not been there, Im not sure I would have made it.

The second time I was a older and I decide to cross a street on my bike, but for some reason managed to misjudge how far away the cars were, which drive rather fast on it as its a long straight road, around 55-65 km/h, in the very last moment, I just managed to turn the bike and lean to one side so the side-wind mirror passed right next to me, which also resulting in the driver of the car having to change lane and not sure if its called sliding with the brakes other in the other side of the lane so you could hear the wheel going and him sounding the horn etc. Had I drove out just 1 second before I would have been hit straight on. In particular the last one, I remember well, because I was older and is even surprised my self, how I manage to not be hit.

I see no reason why I couldn't reach the same conclusion as you in your case, that God or destiny must have stepped in to make sure that I got away with it. Now obviously, I can not claim that God have spoken to me as I at no point was actually near dead, but merely moments away, as compared to you, if I understood you correctly you were just a moment ahead of me so to speak?

So just wondering what does God not want you or us to do? And are you talking about the Biblical God?

NO, NOT the biblical Christian "god"!

And you missed the most important part of my statement:

"Which resulted in having a spiritual experience before being returned to life. And God has been with me ever since, and so has the spiritual gifts he gave me."

Now I get tired of going into the details over and over on these forums, but I drowned, then my soul left my body and went to what most call "Heaven", met The God, was judged, and then shown many things before being returned to life. And I've had a strong connection to my soul and God ever since. Resulting in a lifetime of spiritual experiences and understandings.

 

[Ancient Soul]

But all those things were still wrong, even thought they were legal. Why? Because they were wrong according to God. A society saying they are okay cannot overrule God. And those who follow God know this.

For example,during the days we slavery was legal and entrenched, there was always a small remnant of people who advocated its demise based on moral grounds, who appealed to the teaching of the Torah that every human being had innate dignity because they were created in the image of God. Sure, slavers tried to say that slavery was moral based on the Bible's tolerance of indentured servitude. But the abolitionists rightly spotted the DEEPER understanding of the principle of the Dignity of all human beings.

While all your points have historical, you seem to be implying that without religions people would not object to such things as slavery, overlooking the fact that it ok's slavery.

But there are many non-religious people who objected to slavery and many other injustices out of pure empathy and compassion.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

While all your points have historical, you seem to be implying that without religions people would not object to such things as slavery, overlooking the fact that it ok's slavery.

But there are many non-religious people who objected to slavery and many other injustices out of pure empathy and compassion.

There are certainly some people who are empathy geniuses, who are going to be against such things as slavery simply based on their own perceptions. I'll agree with you there.

But in most cases, atheists pick up their ethics from the culture in which they are raised, just like everyone else, which is always influenced by religion.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

But would one that believe the scriptures, still not have to defend at least to some point, these objective moral standards put forward by God and how one is suppose to see them as good?

Im not saying that you can't find certain good moral standards in the scriptures, so im merely referring to those in which most humans have come to see them as bad standards.

One could obviously argue that these standards were created for the ancient jews at that period of time when the covenant were made. But if no other or new moral standards are given to us, then how should we know them and how should we know that they were good? Because I think most would agree that these standards have changed other time by human hands.

So to me it seems that as human civilization evolves so does out moral understanding, yet it doesn't seem like God is really keeping up, if that makes sense. We still only have these old ones. Yet we as humans do not know whether our moral standards are particular good, compared to what they could be as they are constant evolving, so it might be that in 200 years, people will look back at some of the things we do now and judge us as we are judging those from the past as well.

To me, that makes rather good sense, but the issue is the moment you throw in an all powerful God that is said to be the creator of these standards then I think it sort of changes things, because then why are we trying to improve on them, if they have already been decided, but just not given to us? or at least not to an extend where we can clearly understand and agree on them.

I'm am sympathetic to what you are saying. I believe that this is why God granted authority to the elders/judges/rabbis in Deuteronomy 17:8-13 to rule on matters of law.

I personally relate to Conservative Judaism's idea of an ever unfolding, evolving Judaism:
" Judaism has never stood still; it has continually changed throughout its history, adding and dropping laws, ideas, associations, and concerns. If it is to continue to be living and vital, it must incorporate the best that the modern world has to offer while maintaining its distinctive character and wisdom. How to do that is a tricky business, and so decisions must be made on a communal basis as much as possible, as we discussed earlier. But we must contribute to the tradition what we can if it is to develop and have the power to interest and involve us." theology-BELIEFS OF THE CONSERVATIVE MOVEMENT

 

[IndigoChild5559]

ooops

 

[Ancient Soul]

There are certainly some people who are empathy geniuses, who are going to be against such things as slavery simply based on their own perceptions. I'll agree with you there.

But in most cases, atheists pick up their ethics from the culture in which they are raised, just like everyone else, which is always influenced by religion.

I've had many people make similar statements to me and I have problems with it.

It's overly arrogant of religious people to claim that ONLY from religions (Meaning THEIR religion.) can people know right from wrong. Then when pressed, they say, well, ok, SOME people can learn right from wrong, but ONLY from religions (Again meaning ONLY from THEIR religion.).

They just cannot let go of their self appointed superiority that they think their religion gives them a "right" to have. Refusing to accept the fact that lots of children are born with empathy and compassion for others, as well as having a strong sense of right and wrong. I surely did from as young as I can remember. I can still remember like it happened yesterday when a boy pulled out a chair when another boy went to sit down, and LAUGHED when the other boy fell on his butt. While all I could do was think how sick and cruel it was to do that and how much it must have hurt the other boy. Shocked how someone could even do such a thing. So I confronted the other boy even though he was with two other boys who thought it was funny also, and threatened me. But I insisted they go away and they backed down. and thru-out my life I've seen other children do similar. Children too way young to have been influenced by religions.

Besides that, many people develop empathy and compassion thru-out their lifetimes, which goes hand in hand with right and wrong, so that also negates such "Then can only be learned thru religions", claims.

 

[MonkeyFire]

If we assume that whatever God one believe in is true and have created everything.

Why should we care about what that God think, so from a human or personal point of view, why would you care about what your God thinks?

The reason I ask this is, because what do one gain from it or what do one try to achieve by it. Because if its about hope of living forever, could one not argue that. The reason people care, is out of fear rather than good?

Also as an atheist myself, I obviously do not care about a God, yet I consider my self a rather decent human being, meaning I don't intentional try to hurt others etc. So if its about doing or being a good human being, that is perfectly possible as a non believer.

So again, think it could be interesting to hear why religious people care about what their God think?

No one ever said nonbeliever are evil it's that they suffer. If your a non-believer your getting cheated or your cheating someone else.

 

[Jim]

If we assume that whatever God one believe in is true and have created everything.

Why should we care about what that God think, so from a human or personal point of view, why would you care about what your God thinks?

The reason I ask this is, because what do one gain from it or what do one try to achieve by it. Because if its about hope of living forever, could one not argue that. The reason people care, is out of fear rather than good?

Also as an atheist myself, I obviously do not care about a God, yet I consider my self a rather decent human being, meaning I don't intentional try to hurt others etc. So if its about doing or being a good human being, that is perfectly possible as a non believer.

So again, think it could be interesting to hear why religious people care about what their God think?

My God is an imaginary person that I’ve constructed from some religious stories and scriptures, to help me make the best use of them in learning to be the best person I can be and do all the good I can do. When I read those scriptures I try to understand what that imaginary person might be trying to tell me and why. I think that’s the best way for me to understand those scriptures, to help me live the best life I can, for my benefit and everyone else’s.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I've had many people make similar statements to me and I have problems with it.

It's overly arrogant of religious people to claim that ONLY from religions (Meaning THEIR religion.) can people know right from wrong. Then when pressed, they say, well, ok, SOME people can learn right from wrong, but ONLY from religions (Again meaning ONLY from THEIR religion.).

They just cannot let go of their self appointed superiority that they think their religion gives them a "right" to have. Refusing to accept the fact that lots of children are born with empathy and compassion for others, as well as having a strong sense of right and wrong. I surely did from as young as I can remember. I can still remember like it happened yesterday when a boy pulled out a chair when another boy went to sit down, and LAUGHED when the other boy fell on his butt. While all I could do was think how sick and cruel it was to do that and how much it must have hurt the other boy. Shocked how someone could even do such a thing. So I confronted the other boy even though he was with two other boys who thought it was funny also, and threatened me. But I insisted they go away and they backed down. and thru-out my life I've seen other children do similar. Children too way young to have been influenced by religions.

Besides that, many people develop empathy and compassion thru-out their lifetimes, which goes hand in hand with right and wrong, so that also negates such "Then can only be learned thru religions", claims.

I am personally very happy to hear that you have such a highly developed sense of empathy. Our biological sense of empathy and justice are the groundwork for natural ethics.

However, without an external objective source to tell us that this sense of empathy and justice is accurate and good, it is no more reliable then our libido or drive for power and want of unecessary things.

 

[Nimos]

No one ever said nonbeliever are evil it's that they suffer. If your a non-believer your getting cheated or your cheating someone else.

Not sure what you mean? Do you mean that I suffer do to my lack of belief as I loose something or end up in hell? And as a non believer Im cheating those that believe, not really sure what you mean?

 

[Nimos]

My God is an imaginary person that I’ve constructed from some religious stories and scriptures, to help me make the best use of them in learning to be the best person I can be and do all the good I can do. When I read those scriptures I try to understand what that imaginary person might be trying to tell me and why. I think that’s the best way for me to understand those scriptures, to help me live the best life I can, for my benefit and everyone else’s.

But I don't really see why you can't use your own judgement for that, why the need to read scriptures? Not meaning that there is anything wrong with it and getting inspired by them.

Besides waking up happy every day and seek happiness what more do you need? If it makes you happy to help those in need, you don't need scriptures to tell you that. If it makes you unhappy that you watch to much TV, then watch less

As long as you are not causing harm to anyone else, then what is wrong with simply maximizing your own happiness?

And by happiness, I don't mean just going out drinking beers all the time and laying on the couch doing nothing, Which some assume is what I mean with it, and that it MUST be the clear path to ultimate happiness.
What I assume you mean with "for my benefit and everyone else's" is to do something good for someone that need it, and that makes you happy?
If that's the case, you don't need scriptures, do voluntary work and help the homeless or whoever needs it. Join and support some cause that you think would help change the world for something better.

At least to me, there is no other purpose in life, you know im already an atheist as we have chatted before. The biggest difference between you as a believer and me, is that you have to follow some rules that I don't.
And if its the case that you have no rules to follow, then there is no different between us and nothing that prevents you for doing things that are helpful for others, while at the same time also make you happy.

I really don't get why scriptures are needed for that.

 

[Jim]

But I don't really see why you can't use your own judgement for that, why the need to read scriptures? Not meaning that there are anything wrong with it, and getting inspired by them.

Besides waking up happy everyday and seek happiness what more do you need? If it makes you happy to help those in need, you don't need scriptures to tell you that. If it makes you unhappy that you watch to much TV, then watch less

As long as you are not causing harm to anyone else, then what is wrong with simply maximizing your own happiness?

And by happiness, I don't mean just going out drinking beers all the time and laying on the couch doing nothing, Which some assume is what I mean with it, and that it MUST be the clear path to ultimate happiness.
What I assume you mean with "for my benefit and everyone else's" is to do something good for someone that need it, and that makes you happy?
If that's the case, you don't need scriptures, do voluntary work and help the homeless or whoever needs it. Join and support some cause that you think would help change the world for something better.

At least to me, there are no other purpose in life, you know im already an atheist as we have chatted before. The biggest difference between you as a believer and me, is that you have to follow some rules that I don't. And if its the case that you have no rules to follow, then there is no different between us and nothing that prevents you for doing thinks that are helpful for others and at the same time brings you happiness, if that is the case.

I really don't get why scriptures are need for that.

All your questions look rhetorical to me. If you’re really interested in what I think about any of that, let me know.

 

[Nimos]

All your questions look rhetorical to me. If you’re really interested in what I think about any of that, let me know.

Sure, I would like to hear it. Because that is truly how I view life myself.

 

[Ancient Soul]

I am personally very happy to hear that you have such a highly developed sense of empathy. Our biological sense of empathy and justice are the groundwork for natural ethics.

However, without an external objective source to tell us that this sense of empathy and justice is accurate and good, it is no more reliable then our libido or drive for power and want of unecessary things.

Thank you for proving my third paragraph so well.

You even try equating a young child's NATURAL feelings of empathy and compassion the same as something shameful. WOW!

But your comments make me now understand why you don't get what I'm saying, empathy and compassion are foreign concepts to you. For if you had developed them, you would know that no outside validation is required, religious or otherwise. Like going back to the slavery issue where this all started, those who thought slavery was wrong due to their empathy and compassion still helped the slaves escape even though they were surrounded by hordes of religious people who felt slavery was fine and would kill anyone helping them escape. And that's completely true, as they would have been hanged.