Why should we care?

[lukethethird]

I can't take my religion seriously and I have no interest in what God thinks or doesn't think, He's a big fat waste of time IMHO.

 

[BilliardsBall]

You don't have to share your thoughts if you don't want. Its not a requirement.

I simply think its interesting hearing other peoples opinions about these things. No different than I would ask questions about morality.

Last I checked there were a lot of non Christians here as well, like Buddhists which many are also atheists, so should they stop posting as well? or what about the Muslims?

Besides that shouldn't you be grateful for us atheists to be here, as it makes it easier for you? Didn't Jesus say to spread the word to the rest of the world? Paul to the gentiles etc. etc.

The Buddhists and etc. did NOT write as you did, "I DON'T CARE." Either you do care and are seeking attention like a child or you don't care and don't therefore belong at RF.

NO, I'm not grateful that hundreds of spiritually interested seekers who read RF discreetly are put off from posting or asking anything because of skeptics who are absolute jerks to them and everyone religious, consistently.

I DO spread the Word, but (biblically speaking) it's wasted on you, or is it? I hope not!

 

[columbus]

So is up to ourselves alone to not be excessively opportunistic? Is it also up to ourselves alone to punish oneself for misdeeds?

That's a rather primitive interpretation of my post.
No, like I said, it's a recognition that we're all in this together. Cooperative behavior tends to get cooperation. But every society has list of required/forbidden behavior that's generally agreed upon, even when the push back is social pressure and not legal.

even when traditional medicine might be suppressed or hidden because not profitable?

Even then.
I understand what you're saying. But if one has a serious health issue, modern medicine is a huge improvement over even relatively recent practices and technology.

When you say primitive are you referring to people of old as Ancients or are you referring to them as Barbarians and Savages compare to you? Sometimes without clear intent behind words I am not sure how to respond so i asked.

I don't mean primitive as moral judgment exactly, more like an observation. But any reasonably well educated modern person knows a lot more than they did about a huge range of things. That includes God.

Similarly, the greatest minds of the mid20th century didn't create the internet. Being brilliant doesn't change their comparatively primitive science and technology.
Tom

 

[Nimos]

The Buddhists and etc. did NOT write as you did, "I DON'T CARE." Either you do care and are seeking attention like a child or you don't care and don't therefore belong at RF.

NO, I'm not grateful that hundreds of spiritually interested seekers who read RF discreetly are put off from posting or asking anything because of skeptics who are absolute jerks to them and everyone religious, consistently.

I DO spread the Word, but (biblically speaking) it's wasted on you, or is it? I hope not!

What you are saying makes no sense.

First of all, I don't know why you write "I DON'T CARE" in caps as to indicate that I somehow were yelling it or something?

This is what I wrote: "Also as an atheist myself, I obviously do not care about a God"

Secondly, people that discreetly read these forum, have absolutely no reason to be put off posting here due to my post. Have you considered that the reason none of them have replied like you do, is because it would make no bloody sense to do so, if you think about it for just two seconds?

If a Protestant asked a question regarding what the Pope means to a Catholic and why they care about it, but at the same time state, that due to them being a Protestant, they themself don't care about what he say. But are merely interested in hearing what they think. Then nothing would be wrong with that.
Exactly the same as to why a lot of Christians might be interested in hearing stuff about JWs and the Watchtower, but at the same time obviously do not care about what the Watchtower say, as they don't share that belief.

Neither a Catholic nor a JWs ought to be offended by someone saying something like that. It should be obvious to them, when the person asking the question don't share their belief.
But that doesn't mean that hearing peoples opinions about, what they believe in, is not interesting to them.

And you could do that with pretty much any topic, whether that is scientific, religious or political.

If people are put off, scared or in no position to stand up for what they believe, maybe they are not as certain as they might think in what they believe in, in the first place. So maybe getting on a forum with lots of different views and have it tested might be beneficial for them.

Otherwise why not just go to whatever church that tells them what they want to hear, if that is what they are after. Its pretty obvious from this forum that a huge range of different views are shared here, so it can't come as a surprise to anyone.

Assuming that one of these discreet people are a Christian (Depending on what type obviously). Why does it matter if they run into one of the evil atheists or agnostics. Compared to a Bahai, Muslim or JWs that might not agree with them either?

Atheists just disagree with them a little bit more than the rest does. No harm in that.

 

[Ancient Soul]

If we assume that whatever God one believe in is true and have created everything.

Why should we care about what that God think, so from a human or personal point of view, why would you care about what your God thinks?

The reason I ask this is, because what do one gain from it or what do one try to achieve by it. Because if its about hope of living forever, could one not argue that. The reason people care, is out of fear rather than good?

Also as an atheist myself, I obviously do not care about a God, yet I consider my self a rather decent human being, meaning I don't intentional try to hurt others etc. So if its about doing or being a good human being, that is perfectly possible as a non believer.

So again, think it could be interesting to hear why religious people care about what their God think?

"What God thinks" is a v-e-r-y broad question.

About popcorn, fidget spinners, the "Cats" movie.... What?

Could you be more specific?

 

[Nimos]

"What God thinks" is a v-e-r-y broad question.

About popcorn, fidget spinners, the "Cats" movie.... What?

Could you be more specific?

Sure, I didn't mean what a God think about fidget spinners or yoyos etc. even though that would be interesting to know as well

No, but looking at the major religions they have rules set by God that he want one to follow. To just use an example of like accepting Jesus as ones savior and through him one can be saved. That you have people that believe that abortions is wrong, due to scriptures etc.

So lots of these religions have rules or guidelines depending on ones belief, so my question were basically if one believe in such rules as having been giving to us by a God.

Then why would one actually care about following them? Which is why I added the afterlife question and if it were about that or maybe because they are afraid of hell, if one believe in that?

The reason is that a lot of people do not share a persons believe and therefore do not intentionally follow the rules they do, like me for instant being an atheist, I don't go around killing people, which is not because I follow the Christian idea that killing is wrong. But because I my self think it is wrong.

A good example might actually be abortion. Based on how I reason or what to say, I have come to the conclusion that I do not see anything wrong abortions. Whereas a person of faith my be against it, because of how they understand their scriptures, which ultimately must be coming from God or it would make no sense to follow them due that.

So why follow what a God say, if its not about the afterlife or fear of hell or whatever it might be and if there are no fears as such, why not follow a rational process rather than just what some scriptures say, don't know if that makes more sense?

 

[Twilight Hue]

If we assume that whatever God one believe in is true and have created everything.

Why should we care about what that God think, so from a human or personal point of view, why would you care about what your God thinks?

The reason I ask this is, because what do one gain from it or what do one try to achieve by it. Because if its about hope of living forever, could one not argue that. The reason people care, is out of fear rather than good?

Also as an atheist myself, I obviously do not care about a God, yet I consider my self a rather decent human being, meaning I don't intentional try to hurt others etc. So if its about doing or being a good human being, that is perfectly possible as a non believer.

So again, think it could be interesting to hear why religious people care about what their God think?

Based on my own past experiences as a Christian, I think people care cuz it gives their life meaning and purpose. I think some people cannot accept or stomach straightforward/direct reality actually playing out as is.

For me, I don't either care or don't care. Just indifferent on the matter.

 

[Ancient Soul]

Sure, I didn't mean what a God think about fidget spinners or yoyos etc. even though that would be interesting to know as well

No, but looking at the major religions they have rules set by God that he want one to follow. To just use an example of like accepting Jesus as ones savior and through him one can be saved. That you have people that believe that abortions is wrong, due to scriptures etc.

So lots of these religions have rules or guidelines depending on ones belief, so my question were basically if one believe in such rules as having been giving to us by a God.

Then why would one actually care about following them? Which is why I added the afterlife question and if it were about that or maybe because they are afraid of hell, if one believe in that?

The reason is that a lot of people do not share a persons believe and therefore do not intentionally follow the rules they do, like me for instant being an atheist, I don't go around killing people, which is not because I follow the Christian idea that killing is wrong. But because I my self think it is wrong.

A good example might actually be abortion. Based on how I reason or what to say, I have come to the conclusion that I do not see anything wrong abortions. Whereas a person of faith my be against it, because of how they understand their scriptures, which ultimately must be coming from God or it would make no sense to follow them due that.

So why follow what a God say, if its not about the afterlife or fear of hell or whatever it might be and if there are no fears as such, why not follow a rational process rather than just what some scriptures say, don't know if that makes more sense?

I think I get you now.

From a religious viewpoint, yes, they all have some consequences for disobeying their respective "god". But that's because they are really all man made religions and man made "god" constructs. So it's necessary to include some form of punishment to those who don't follow their beliefs, otherwise nobody would join their church. So it really has nothing to do with God, just MAN.

For myself however, I had an experience with "dying" when just a child. Which resulted in having a spiritual experience before being returned to life. And God has been with me ever since, and so has the spiritual gifts he gave me. One of which is what some call the Spirit of God. It makes me completely aware of my every thought and action and lets me know if either is going against God's nature, laws, and plan for all souls. Now while I'm free to go against them, as God never made any threat for disobeying him, I willingly do not want to go against them. Because of all his help, guidance, and most awesome spiritual experiences and understandings he has given me thru-out my entire life, I dearly want to keep on spiritually evolving. Without faltering.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Also as an atheist myself, I obviously do not care about a God, yet I consider my self a rather decent human being, meaning I don't intentional try to hurt others etc. So if its about doing or being a good human being, that is perfectly possible as a non believer.

If there is no God, aka no outside objective source of moral behavior telling you that harming others is bad, then all you have are animal instincts/biology making you reluctant to harm. You have no real REASON to be kind unless it serves your purposes.

 

[theQuestion]

If we assume that whatever God one believe in is true and have created everything.

Why should we care about what that God think, so from a human or personal point of view, why would you care about what your God thinks?

The reason I ask this is, because what do one gain from it or what do one try to achieve by it. Because if its about hope of living forever, could one not argue that. The reason people care, is out of fear rather than good?

Also as an atheist myself, I obviously do not care about a God, yet I consider my self a rather decent human being, meaning I don't intentional try to hurt others etc. So if its about doing or being a good human being, that is perfectly possible as a non believer.

So again, think it could be interesting to hear why religious people care about what their God think?

____________________________________________

Either we made ourselves (accident of 'nature', or God has.)
Knowing we were created thru processes He set in motion, it's only natural to care what He thinks.

 

[Nimos]

For myself however, I had an experience with "dying" when just a child. Which resulted in having a spiritual experience before being returned to life. And God has been with me ever since, and so has the spiritual gifts he gave me.

I respect that as I have actually been very close to dying two times my self. Once when I was little (around 5-6 I think) and I ate an ice cube and decided to run while eating it. So it got stuck in my throat so I couldn't breath and were unable to clear it. It just happen to occur directly outside the house of where a doctor lived in them street where I grew up. And he ran out and lifted me from the ground in my legs and slammed me on the back so it came out. If he had not been there, Im not sure I would have made it.

The second time I was a older and I decide to cross a street on my bike, but for some reason managed to misjudge how far away the cars were, which drive rather fast on it as its a long straight road, around 55-65 km/h, in the very last moment, I just managed to turn the bike and lean to one side so the side-wind mirror passed right next to me, which also resulting in the driver of the car having to change lane and not sure if its called sliding with the brakes other in the other side of the lane so you could hear the wheel going and him sounding the horn etc. Had I drove out just 1 second before I would have been hit straight on. In particular the last one, I remember well, because I was older and is even surprised my self, how I manage to not be hit.

I see no reason why I couldn't reach the same conclusion as you in your case, that God or destiny must have stepped in to make sure that I got away with it. Now obviously, I can not claim that God have spoken to me as I at no point was actually near dead, but merely moments away, as compared to you, if I understood you correctly you were just a moment ahead of me so to speak?

So just wondering what does God not want you or us to do? And are you talking about the Biblical God?

 

[Ayjaydee]

If there is no God, aka no outside objective source of moral behavior telling you that harming others is bad, then all you have are animal instincts/biology making you reluctant to harm. You have no real REASON to be kind unless it serves your purposes.

But it does serve my purposes. Being unkind adds to my suffering

 

[Nimos]

If there is no God, aka no outside objective source of moral behavior telling you that harming others is bad, then all you have are animal instincts/biology making you reluctant to harm. You have no real REASON to be kind unless it serves your purposes.

i would agree with that.

but also think that there are excellent evidence for that actually being the case, when we look around in the world, both today and the past and look at the things humans have done to each other. Both in and not in the name of God or Gods.

Taking a very simple scenario of some tribe people, they might show compassion towards each other, which have allowed their community to survive, while at the same time being at war killing people of other tribes. Which basically is what have happened on a regular basis throughout all of human history. We have manage to enslave each other and really threat these bad etc. No exception found here in the bible.

So if these moral behaviours were not instincts or biological, then why do they occur? or said in another way, why does Gods moral standard not seem to work, even on those that believe in him?

So if we can't notice a difference, between those that believe they are following God's moral standards and those that are clearly not, like atheists or people of other beliefs, then what does it matter and why is it more likely to be true with God's moral standards than without, as at least in my view, when looking at passed history there seem to be a whole lot more pointing in the direction that there ain't any moral standards giving to us by God?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

But it does serve my purposes. Being unkind adds to my suffering

But that's just biology. If someone has a different biological makeup, you have no objective grounds to lord it over them and force your morality upon them.

 

[Ayjaydee]

But that's just biology. If someone has a different biological makeup, you have no objective grounds to lord it over them and force your morality upon them.

No I dont. But society assumes the right to enforce its preferences as far as the laws of the society allow.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

i would agree with that.

but also think that there are excellent evidence for that actually being the case, when we look around in the world, both today and the past and look at the things humans have done to each other. Both in and not in the the name of God or Gods.

I don't think we should expect to see that big a difference between those that believe in the ethnical monotheistic world view and those that believe in the relative world view. At least not yet. The history of homo sapiens is very very old, and ideas take a very long time to unfold.

But I do see how much the idea has taken hold in the world since the Jews first proposed it. And it is still being fought today, just as it was fought in the beginning. It is an idea that requires much of us, and doggone it, we would much rather have things nice and easy. A single, judgmental God that requires we act better, and a unified better at that, is just a pain in the tuchas.

I was just reading an essay today about the root of anti-Semitism. Not Christian anti-Semitism, but the large general sort. One philosopher has tagged this issue as the reason. Jews just don't accept the relativistic status quo. We have given the world ethical monotheism, and it has spread over the planet. And it ticks people off.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

No I dont. But society assumes the right to enforce its preferences as far as the laws of the society allow.

Sure. But then you end up with societies like Nazi Germany, where what is "good" is killing off six million Jews, along with the handicapped, gypsies, JWs, homosexuals....

Nuremberg becomes a farce, possible only because those with a different set of morals won the war and forced its morality on the losers. If Germany had won the war, their idea of "good" would have been victorious.

According to you there is no objective morality to judge these societies by.

Can you live with that world view?

 

[Ayjaydee]

Sure. But then you end up with societies like Nazi Germany, where what is "good" is killing off six million Jews, along with the handicaped, gypsies, JWs, the disabled....

Nuremburg becomes a farce, possible only because those with a different set of morals won the war. If Germany had won the war, their idea of "good" would have been victorious.

Can you live with that world view?

We have been throughout history. American slavery was legal. Japanese internment was legal. Native residential schools were legal. Forbidding natives from leaving their reserves was legal. Etc etc

 

[Nimos]

I don't think we should expect to see that big a difference between those that believe in the ethnical monotheistic world view and those that believe in the relative world view. At least not yet. The history of homo sapiens is very very old, and ideas take a very long time to unfold.

Trying to follow you here, so you would agree that little to no difference is observable between, lets say a convinced Christian and an atheist when it comes to moral standards?

Because I would assume that if those people that were convinced of the moral standards giving to us by God, assuming that this is actually true. Would be far superior in moral behaviour than an atheist would. While at the same time, be able to pretty much wipe the floor in a moral debate with an atheist. Because of the mere fact that these moral objective standards came from God. But I don't really think that is case, not saying that a religious person as such have worse moral standards than an atheist, but that in some cases such person would have to defend some of the morals stated in their scriptures, which does not always seems all that easy, when it comes to what most people consider to be morally good.
Whereas an atheist doesn't really have to follow anything, but can freely argue their case based on how they think or believe things are or ought to be,

Like with the example of abortions.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

We have been throughout history. American slavery was legal. Japanese internment was legal. Native residential schools were legal. Forbidding natives from leaving their reserves was legal. Etc etc

But all those things were still wrong, even thought they were legal. Why? Because they were wrong according to God. A society saying they are okay cannot overrule God. And those who follow God know this.

For example,during the days we slavery was legal and entrenched, there was always a small remnant of people who advocated its demise based on moral grounds, who appealed to the teaching of the Torah that every human being had innate dignity because they were created in the image of God. Sure, slavers tried to say that slavery was moral based on the Bible's tolerance of indentured servitude. But the abolitionists rightly spotted the DEEPER understanding of the principle of the Dignity of all human beings.