Why should the world?

[shmogie]

I entirely agree, but shouting "we came in (late) and won the war for you" deserves only contempt

You are in France, ask the old timers about what you just posted.

Britain was totally isolated, and did not have enough resources to mount an invasion without the US.

Germany would have known this, and could have large numbers of troops and equipment and supplies to the east to face Russia, where they may have won.

Europe knew years in advance about hitler and his war mongering, yet they fell like dominoes before his onslaughts, the great bulwark against German invasion, France, crumpled like a cheap suit, in days. Britain almost lost an entire army. Britain,being an island, was spared an invasion because hitler had bigger fish to fry, they were a nuisance to him, nothing more.

Churchill makes it clear that if he could not convince the US to come into the war, it was lost.

I don´t shout it, history says it. Yes, it was am allied victory, and even poor Poland, carved up by Stalin and hitler, played a valiant role.

Maybe so. But when I look at the world today, it's not so much a matter of a single country - or even a few large "superpowers" - calling the shots. It's more like factions - factions within countries which have like-minded allies in other countries.

All that patriotic sloganism and symbolism - along with American exceptionalism - that's just so much bunkum for the masses, just to get them to go along with it. And that also lets other countries and their governments off the hook, so they can tell their own people "You see? It's not us, it's those bloody Yanks! But we're just going along with them...just because."

Some factions, both outside of America and within America, gain a great deal from these "police" activities that go on. Yet most Americans really don't benefit one iota - and America as a whole ends up losing money on all this. Someone is making money on this, but it isn't most Americans - or even America as a nation. It's not even done "for the glory of the empire," which would at least be something to take pride in.

America, was, is, and will continue to be an exceptional nation. You may not like it, you may think otherwise, but it is what it is.

 

[shmogie]

All the allies together won the war. However the turning point of the war was....

"On D-Day, the Allies landed around 156,000 troops in Normandy.
73,000 American (23,250 on Utah Beach, 34,250 on Omaha Beach, and 15,500 airborne troops),
83,115 British and Canadian (61,715 of them British) with 24,970 on Gold Beach, 21,400 on Juno Beach, 28,845 on Sword Beach, and 7,900 airborne troops."

My father was one of those on Omaha beach, thanks pop.

 

[shmogie]

My reason for the OP was because of the idiotic war game US are doing all over the world. And how they wish to tell other countries what they can and can not do. Example being US telling what Iran can and can not do, or the different countries in the Middle east region.
When it comes to Norway where i live, because of Nato we must agree to have American troops placed here, something i find idiotic. America is just a country in the world, and they should be focusing on fixing their own problems before trying to fix others with bombing them to hell

American troops could leave Norway if it could defend itself, in fact, I think they should anyway. Pull all our troops out of western Europe, where all are pledged to contribute 2% of their GDP to NATO , and a number don´t do it. The US pays 5%

So, let Norway defend itself, and let them see how much it is going to cost them. You don´t have to agree, your government tomorrow could request US troops to leave, and they would.

Norway has had no impact in world affairs for a thousand years, except when hitler squashed you.

You have been sucking at the teat of America so long, you don´t even know you are doing it. I wish, just for all the Europeans who think like you, our troops would got to countries who want more troops, Eastern Europe.

Then you latter day vikings could stand up to the Russians if they come swarming in. Good luck with that.

 

[Spirit of Light]

American troops could leave Norway if it could defend itself, in fact, I think they should anyway. Pull all our troops out of western Europe, where all are pledged to contribute 2% of their GDP to NATO , and a number don´t do it. The US pays 5%

So, let Norway defend itself, and let them see how much it is going to cost them. You don´t have to agree, your government tomorrow could request US troops to leave, and they would.

Norway has had no impact in world affairs for a thousand years, except when hitler squashed you.

You have been sucking at the teat of America so long, you don´t even know you are doing it. I wish, just for all the Europeans who think like you, our troops would got to countries who want more troops, Eastern Europe.

Then you latter day vikings could stand up to the Russians if they come swarming in. Good luck with that.

Russia are not going to Attack Norway or other Scandinavian countries
I do not mind Nato in it self when they are peacekeepers, but US have not shown a part where they are peacefull, that is the biggest problem for nato, so maybe they would be better off without US.

 

[We Never Know]

My reason for the OP was because of the idiotic war game US are doing all over the world. And how they wish to tell other countries what they can and can not do. Example being US telling what Iran can and can not do, or the different countries in the Middle east region.
When it comes to Norway where i live, because of Nato we must agree to have American troops placed here, something i find idiotic. America is just a country in the world, and they should be focusing on fixing their own problems before trying to fix others with bombing them to hell

Instead of blaming the U.S., you need to take that up with your own government.

June, 2018
Norway wants to double US troops and deploy them closer to Russia

Norway will ask the United States to double the number of US troops stationed in the country and deploy them nearer the border with Russia, the government said Tuesday.

https://www-thelocal-no.cdn.ampproj...le-us-troops-and-deploy-them-closer-to-russia

 

[Spirit of Light]

Instead of blaming the U.S., you need to take that up with your own government.

June, 2018
Norway wants to double US troops and deploy them closer to Russia

Norway will ask the United States to double the number of US troops stationed in the country and deploy them nearer the border with Russia, the government said Tuesday.

https://www-thelocal-no.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.thelocal.no/20180613/norway-wants-to-double-us-troops-and-deploy-them-closer-to-russia/amp?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQA#referrer=https://www.google.com&amp_tf=From %1$s&ampshare=https://www.thelocal.no/20180613/norway-wants-to-double-us-troops-and-deploy-them-closer-to-russia

I have done what i can with writing to the government, but they do not care what i think

 

[ChristineM]

You are in France, ask the old timers about what you just posted.

Britain was totally isolated, and did not have enough resources to mount an invasion without the US.

Germany would have known this, and could have large numbers of troops and equipment and supplies to the east to face Russia, where they may have won.

Europe knew years in advance about hitler and his war mongering, yet they fell like dominoes before his onslaughts, the great bulwark against German invasion, France, crumpled like a cheap suit, in days. Britain almost lost an entire army. Britain,being an island, was spared an invasion because hitler had bigger fish to fry, they were a nuisance to him, nothing more.

Churchill makes it clear that if he could not convince the US to come into the war, it was lost.

I don´t shout it, history says it. Yes, it was am allied victory, and even poor Poland, carved up by Stalin and hitler, played a valiant role.


America, was, is, and will continue to be an exceptional nation. You may not like it, you may think otherwise, but it is what it is.

I visit chateau des Milandes several times a year, and marvel at the bravery of Josephine B
aker... Look her up

And i speak to french Ww2 veterans regularly, last sunday at the bastile day celebrations for example. Do you want me to go into what they say or are you content with your own version of what the french say?

Correct, and i have not said otherwise. What i have said is america eventually got off the fence when threatened and came to help. Which incidentally really upset US industrialists who made much money supplying he german war machine. So the french remember that part of Germanies success was due to america.

Say that again? So this is why germany failed in russia, because they knew and would gave won?

Yes, unarmed civilians tend to crumble against military might, ask the hill farmers in Grenada.

And analysts say the Churchill was wrong,

history says America got off the fence and helped the allied forces.

I have no problems with America and most of the American people no matter what massages your sensibilities. I do have problems with the arrogance and condescension of some few american people.

For your amusement

 

[shmogie]

Actually, it's not entirely true that NATO membership requires your country to have American troops placed there. France was able to successfully evict US troops from their soil, while still remaining a nominal member of NATO. They still supported the Western alliance, but they refused to become a puppet or satellite of the United States. Other countries within NATO have the same option, if they choose to exercise it. It's really up to them.

The reason why America is involved in the Middle East is because the European countries which used to be in charge of the Middle East pretty much botched it. Many of these places where America has been involved - from Africa to Southeast Asia - were all under European hegemony at some point, and they screwed it up.

Do you think Germany is a puppet of the US, how about Poland, or the other nations where are troops are.

France didn´t ¨ evict¨ anyone. They didn´t evict Germany in who captured their emperor in 1870, they didn´t evict Germany in 1914, and their eviction of the Germans in WW2 consisted of first surrendering to them, then becoming collaborators. They couldn´t even evict the Basque seperatists.

France had no chance in hell of ¨evicting¨ us, we left at their request so DeGaulle could feed his ego.

 

[shmogie]

I visit chateau des Milandes several times a year, and marvel at the bravery of Josephine B
aker... Look her up

And i speak to french Ww2 veterans regularly, last sunday at the bastile day celebrations for example. Do you want me to go into what they say or are you content with your own version of what the french say?

Correct, and i have not said otherwise. What i have said is america eventually got off the fence when threatened and came to help. Which incidentally really upset US industrialists who made much money supplying he german war machine. So the french remember that part of Germanies success was due to america.

Say that again? So this is why germany failed in russia, because they knew and would gave won?

Yes, unarmed civilians tend to crumble against military might, ask the hill farmers in Grenada.

And analysts say the Churchill was wrong,

history says America got off the fence and helped the allied forces.

I have no problems with America and most of the American people no matter what massages your sensibilities. I do have problems with the arrogance and condescension of some few american people.

For your amusement

You are one confused person when it comes to the history of WW2. So, France getting rolled over like a dirt road was Americaś fault ? How about 1914, 0r 1870 ? What ¨allied forces¨, Britain in the west, who was pinned to their island, and Russia ? Those were the allied forces. Other nations were involved in the Pacific, but without the invasion, none could operate in Europe. The invasion could not have taken place without the US. Even with us, our navy, our aircraft, our troops, the invasion was a huge gamble.

Germany was no threat to us, except to our merchant ships going to Europe.

BTW, Grenada has a special celebration day. like bastille day, every year, where they fly American flags, thousands of them, there are no troops to compel them to do this. Unlike some, they are grateful for being liberated.

When Germany invaded Russia, there was a peace treaty between them.

 

[ChristineM]

You are one confused person when it comes to the history of WW2. So, France getting rolled over like a dirt road was Americaś fault ? How about 1914, 0r 1870 ? What ¨allied forces¨, Britain in the west, who was pinned to their island, and Russia ? Those were the allied forces. Other nations were involved in the Pacific, but without the invasion, none could operate in Europe. The invasion could not have taken place without the US. Even with us, our navy, our aircraft, our troops, the invasion was a huge gamble.

Germany was no threat to us, except to our merchant ships going to Europe.

BTW, Grenada has a special celebration day. like bastille day, every year, where they fly American flags, thousands of them, there are no troops to compel them to do this. Unlike some, they are grateful for being liberated.

When Germany invaded Russia, there was a peace treaty between them.

Did i say it was americas fault? No, i said part of germany success was down to american finance of the Nazi war machine, france still remembers ford trucks trundling across the border from germany. What confusion there?

And why throw straw men in? We are talking ww2 but if you want to talk about france being the most successful military force in recorded history or america winning only 1 war without help since before ww2 then feel free to throw whatever dates make you happy.

Remember that britain in the west was also helping your pacific fleet.

Without the HELP of the US, without the HELP. Lets get that strait. Other allies were involved too.

Yet when Germany declared war on the US, they jumped of the fence. No threat, then why the reaction when you had already refused to get involved?

Who says france or otheres are not grateful for what your grandparents did? Oh you do. Take in mind people are grateful for your grandparents HELP. But for grandchildren to repeatedly belittle people (crumpled like a cheap suit) and expect homage for their ancestors deeds is rather pathetic dont you think?

And?

 

[shmogie]

Did i say it was americas fault? No, i said part of germany success was down to american finance of the Nazi war machine, france still remembers ford trucks trundling across the border from germany. What confusion there?

And why throw straw men in? We are talking ww2 but if you want to talk about france being the most successful military force in recorded history or america winning only 1 war without help since before ww2 then feel free to throw whatever dates make you happy.

Remember that britain in the west was also helping your pacific fleet.

Without the HELP of the US, without the HELP. Lets get that strait. Other allies were involved too.

Yet when Germany declared war on the US, they jumped of the fence. No threat, then why the reaction when you had already refused to get involved?

Who says france or otheres are not grateful for what your grandparents did? Oh you do. Take in mind people are grateful for your grandparents HELP. But for grandchildren to repeatedly belittle people (crumpled like a cheap suit) and expect homage for their ancestors deeds is rather pathetic dont you think?

And?

Actually it was my father who went in to Omaha beach in an early wave, I am old.

Britain provided virtually no Naval help in the pacific. Their Pacific fleet was virtually destroyed before we got there, and what little that was left was needed at home, to join with the British fleet in the Atlantic for convoyś, and to prevent an invasion of Britain. They were superb in Burma.

My Father considered the Brits the best soldiers of the time, there just wasn´t enough of them to do it without help.

My father was in Pattons army after the invasion, in the Group that linked up with the Russians. He considered the Russian troops barbarians. The GIś gave them soap and they tried to eat it. They treated the civilians like animals. Fights broke out quickly.

All he would say about the French was that they never trusted them.

 

[ChristineM]

Actually it was my father who went in to Omaha beach in an early wave, I am old.

Britain provided virtually no Naval help in the pacific. Their Pacific fleet was virtually destroyed before we got there, and what little that was left was needed at home, to join with the British fleet in the Atlantic for convoyś, and to prevent an invasion of Britain. They were superb in Burma.

My Father considered the Brits the best soldiers of the time, there just wasn´t enough of them to do it without help.

My father was in Pattons army after the invasion, in the Group that linked up with the Russians. He considered the Russian troops barbarians. The GIś gave them soap and they tried to eat it. They treated the civilians like animals. Fights broke out quickly.

All he would say about the French was that they never trusted them.

OK father, the same applies.

I am not that up on the British fleet in the Pacific apart from talks with an uncle who was a pilot.
Here is a wiki on the British Pacific fleet
British Pacific Fleet - Wikipedia
Looks to me a bit more than virtually no help.

 

[Stevicus]

I have written letters to norwegian government but they refuse to listen. they say they want America as protection....

Then it would appear that the main issue is with your own government.

I haven't written letters to my government in quite some time, but I suppose I could write one and ask them to remove our troops from Norway. Their likely response is that "the Norwegian government wants us as protection."

So, if I was to oppose that, then it would be interpreted as wanting to leave Norway out in the cold and unprotected from the evil forces of the world. It would be seen as dishonorable and unfriendly to your country. I couldn't say "the Norwegians don't want us there" when your own government is saying that they do. No other Americans, nor our government, would be convinced by that.

Europeans will have to deal with their own governments if they don't want to have to put up with American hegemony. If the Europeans stand up and make it clear in no uncertain terms that they want us out (and have enough political pull to get their governments to make an official request to that effect), then it would be an ENORMOUS boost to Americans who want our forces to return to America. But those who support that can't get anywhere because they're always given the same response: "The Europeans need us there...they want us there...are you going to turn your back on your friends?"

Until the Europeans make it perfectly clear and take a resolute and unified stance, so that Americans can clearly SEE that the Europeans don't want American troops there, then this situation you're complaining about will never end.

 

[Stevicus]

America, was, is, and will continue to be an exceptional nation. You may not like it, you may think otherwise, but it is what it is.

When I first encountered the phrase "American Exceptionalism" many years ago, it seemed odd. It wasn't a term I grew up with.

I'm not saying that America isn't exceptional, although it's not a term I would use.

I think we can at least be truthful about America, both in the positive and the negative. I'm not necessarily anti-patriotic, but sometimes I think we can spread it on a bit too thick. I try to look at it from the standpoint of the realities of geopolitics and whether our perceptions and responses to various world crises are practical and in America's best interests.

I'm not so much interested in how we look to the rest of the world or whether Americans actually feel good about being born into such an exceptional nation.

 

[Stevicus]

Do you think Germany is a puppet of the US, how about Poland, or the other nations where are troops are.

Nope.

France didn´t ¨ evict¨ anyone. They didn´t evict Germany in who captured their emperor in 1870, they didn´t evict Germany in 1914, and their eviction of the Germans in WW2 consisted of first surrendering to them, then becoming collaborators. They couldn´t even evict the Basque seperatists.

France had no chance in hell of ¨evicting¨ us, we left at their request so DeGaulle could feed his ego.

So, we left at their request. They didn't want us there, so we honored their request. You may have a problem with the word "evict," but regardless of which word you prefer, it doesn't change the main point I was making - that it's ultimately the choice of the individual nation's government to make the decision. Are you saying that you disagree with that?

 

[shmogie]

Nope.



So, we left at their request. They didn't want us there, so we honored their request. You may have a problem with the word "evict," but regardless of which word you prefer, it doesn't change the main point I was making - that it's ultimately the choice of the individual nation's government to make the decision. Are you saying that you disagree with that?

Nope

 

[shmogie]

OK father, the same applies.

I am not that up on the British fleet in the Pacific apart from talks with an uncle who was a pilot.
Here is a wiki on the British Pacific fleet
British Pacific Fleet - Wikipedia
Looks to me a bit more than virtually no help.

Note the date that these ships entered the Pacific theater, 1944. This was after the Japanese captured the Brit colonies and destroyed or ran out the ships the Brits had there to protect their colonies.

The US had been in theater since 1942. Now Wikepedia the battle of the coral sea, the battle of midway, the Marinnas turkey shoot, and all the other battles the US Navy had been involved in. The Japanese navy had no aircraft carriers left, their genius admiral, Yamamoto had been killed, most of their capital ships had been sunk, and the US had achieved complete air superiority by 1944. This British fleet was pretty safe.

Britains fleet had completely missed the big, decisive battles, and they were back to reclaim and hold on to the colonies they had lost ,primary purpose, if an invasion of the Japanese home islands was required, they would have been of immense help, but it wasn´t required. They got to the dance late, and it was pretty much over.

 

[Shad]

As far as Japan went, they ruled China and the western Pacific.

Japan has been stopped at Chongqing in 39 and 40. It couldn't control any part of China outside urban centers, ports and railway corridors. China did better than most of Europe did in WW2. Japan controls several islands before the war started. It expanded it's control after Pearl.

True, it took awhile before the US came to their senses, but the world was on the ropes by then. The Axis powers would not have been defeated if the US had not geared up to kick butt.

The Axis had no ability to touch American industry. Both Japan and Germany preferred tactical air forces linked to the ground forces without strategic capabilities as independent units. Japan no capability of launching an invasion of America. Germany had next to not surface fleet and UK was a geographical barrier it failed to invade.

 

[BSM1]

Japan has been stopped at Chongqing in 39 and 40. It couldn't control any part of China outside urban centers, ports and railway corridors. China did better than most of Europe did in WW2. Japan controls several islands before the war started. It expanded it's control after Pearl.



The Axis had no ability to touch American industry. Both Japan and Germany preferred tactical air forces linked to the ground forces without strategic capabilities as independent units. Japan no capability of launching an invasion of America. Germany had next to not surface fleet and UK was a geographical barrier it failed to invade.

It was just a matter of time for China; and German U-boats practically controlled the Atlantic.

 

[Spirit of Light]

The U.S. Has Only Been At Peace For 21 Years Total Since Its Birth, not a very peaceful nation.