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Why Should It Matter?

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
If you identify with a particular religion or philosophy and label yourself as such, and another comes along with different ideas on what that religion or philosophy is and labels themselves the same as you, does it matter to you? If so, why? If not, why not?
Would you go as far as to tell them that they are a false (insert aforementioned label here)? What can be accomplished by doing so?

I have a nice example in my own life:

Sai Baba is my guru and I love His teachings. Now one of His students claims that he can see Sai Baba in His astral/subtle form and they start a new kind of religion around this student. He even gives discourses saying Sai Baba talks through him.

In 2014, in the Ashram of Sai Baba, Sai Baba came in my dream and told me to go there AND He told me "don't talk to other Sai devotees (both groups) about this"

Has been a difficult practice to not speak about this to them. But reading your threat I can clearly see the importance why Sai Baba told me NOT to speak about it. When we debate, sometimes there is the feeling that we would like the other to impress or have his mind change.

When you don't do this then you are more confronted with what it does to you. It's very good for your own introspection. I learn more about "me".
 

SalixIncendium

अग्निविलोवनन्दः
Staff member
Premium Member
Hinduism has a lot of diversity. That said, if somebody says that he believes that human sacrifice is an integral part of Hinduism, I would have a duty to object.

I think everyone is be free to hold whatever beliefs, ideas, and opinions they may have (of course we should still implore others to think critically). Where it becomes a concern is when people act upon them in a way that victimizes, violates rights, and impedes upon liberty.

This is a provocative question to consider. At first I was thinking for instance someone calling themselves a Christian. As a term, a follower of Christ, that is very wide open as to what someone's interpretation of that means to them. It's an open-ended thing, and can be understood in many different ways.

However, in thinking about it further, let's take for example a case where you are following a very specific discipline or practice such as Tai Chi Chuan (taijiquan), which I practice and pursue in knowledge. Sometimes in watching Youtube videos I see someone performing what they call Tai Chi, and it really is what I call "Faux Chi", where it's actually not following the rules of the form at all. Even though within Taijiquan you can have variations of the form, it will all generally follow certain rules, such as keeping the shoulders down, lead with the waist not the arms, wrists a certain ways, steps a certain way, etc. And of course there are different schools or styles, such as Cheng or Yang family taijiquan.

But when someone just free forms "something" that looks Tai Chi like, it's actually not taijiquan. At best it's an "exercise" or "stretching", but it's not playing the actual form. While I may give them credit for finding the form attractive and wanting to do something like it, it's really not Tai Chi and it shouldn't be considered just as valid as the actual form that follows specific rules. "You can do Tai Chi your way, and I can do it my way," is not valid if we're not just talking about how certain postures are done differently between various schools, but rather no foundational structures at all that make Tai Chi what it is to begin with.

So to answer your question, it really depends what someone is claiming, and whether or not it's claiming to follow a specific school or tradition. If it's just all made up stuff with no understanding of the discipline at all, then that's not valid to just call it that because you want to impress people with your flowery movements.


In the above example, I would respectfully attempt to explain that what they are doing isn't actually taijiquan, while admiring their attempts, and then encourage them to explore that if it were a good fit for them. What would hopefully be accomplished by that would be their growth, learning from an ancient discipline handed down by various lineage holders to qualified students to become masters themselves and teach others.

Otherwise, I wouldn't push it, and just leave them to their illusions if it made them happy and they weren't actually interested in learning the real thing, like wanting to play the air-guitar at a party, versus knowing the actual scales of a real guitar and learning how to actually play one competently.

So it would appear based on the responses above that what matters, or what people take exception to, is more the difference in discipline and practice than the beliefs themselves.

While I can completely understand how it matters when these disciplines and practices directly impact others, such as exemplified in the responses of @sayak83 and @Father Heathen, should we be concerned with practices and disciplines that do not directly impact others, such as the one in @Windwalker's example? Sure, those that are doing taijiquan (or as described above, "Faux Chi") in the YouTube videos may be sharing something with others that may be misleading, but if they think they are doing it right, is the onus on them to adjust their practices to prevent misinformation? Or is the onus on the viewer to seek out the correct discipline and practice?
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
If you identify with a particular religion or philosophy and label yourself as such, and another comes along with different ideas on what that religion or philosophy is and labels themselves the same as you, does it matter to you? If so, why? If not, why not?

Would you go as far as to tell them that they are a false (insert aforementioned label here)? What can be accomplished by doing so?
I think you have to know when to hold 'em, and when to fold 'em. Only when those beliefs translate into action from the other person should we do anything about it. At the temple I go to a priest from another sect (tradition) starting making noise about how the main temple priest was doing the rituals wrong, so much that it was causing disharmony. The temple president stepped up, and basically told the guy to shut up or not come back.

Lots of people come, and have the brains to shut up about stuff, despite disagreeing. Then there is no point in caring. But yeah, if it translates into action, sure, step up and do your duty.
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
If you identify with a particular religion or philosophy and label yourself as such, and another comes along with different ideas on what that religion or philosophy is and labels themselves the same as you, does it matter to you? If so, why? If not, why not?

Would you go as far as to tell them that they are a false (insert aforementioned label here)? What can be accomplished by doing so?
the same as the no true scotsman fallacy. obviously due to experience, no two scotsman are going to have the exact same scottish experience, or physical form. however the one holding a more holistic and inclusive view would be the ideal. why? well its like the blind men and the elephant.


How to Take a Holistic Apprach to Problem Solving


besides, the diversity of expressions show the true nature of the unconditional mind.
 
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George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Why do you feel it is your responsibility to prevent others from being misled?
That question is like asking why I would be against fake news. As a person that cares about others I don't like seeing them confused or misled by false claims.
Does it matter to you what others think you believe? If so, why?
They can think what they want of course but in the interest of furthering human understanding of each other, I don't like people learning about things from inaccurate sources.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Yeah.... that's called murder, though.

Exactly, that's called murder
Hence I agreed with and replied to Sayak83 that sometimes "I have the duty to object" when someone tells me it's okay to sacrifice humans
 

Segev Moran

Well-Known Member
If you identify with a particular religion or philosophy and label yourself as such, and another comes along with different ideas on what that religion or philosophy is and labels themselves the same as you, does it matter to you? If so, why? If not, why not?

Would you go as far as to tell them that they are a false (insert aforementioned label here)? What can be accomplished by doing so?
I am not a religious person but i identify with the Jewish religion.
It is unfortunate in my opinion that people claim to be Jewish yet they act so much in contrast to the Jewish core beliefs.
So in a way, my answer is that yes, it is something that matters to me.
If one uses the Jewish religion as an excuse to cause harm to others, which is a complete "violation" of the most basic beliefs of the Jewish religion, i would no hesitate to "prove him wrong" if i can.
I think that each can freely choose what and what no to practice in his religion, but the problem begins when one uses his own interpretations or understanding to gain advantage or control over others.
As it seems, most of the world's religious authorities abuse their followers.
At times, it causes so much harm that this is one of the reasons you will often hear an atheist claim that religion is a root of evil. this is not my belief, but i cannot overlook the fact that religion is an "easy excuse" to some.
If you practice a religion, practice its original ways. I cannot understand how a religion can differ so much from one believer to another.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Me personally? I wouldn't care. Diversity, in my opinion, should be approached peacefully and with respect. Typically, the idea of ousting a fellow church member means you have a power issue. That is a vice.

It's best to allow others to carry out their spiritual journey with a positive attitude, and you do the same.

I believe that the universe has been created accidentally by Bob, the invisible almighty turtle, after eating too many spiritual beans. That is what we believe to have been the sacred initial Bob’s Big Fart that created reality. The initial cause of everything. There are also deep philosophical and bobological studies concerning this.

I hope to get the same amount of respect for that. In the interest of diversity of course, since our belief is on par with all other beliefs, for what concerns evidence.

Ciao

- viole
 

Cooky

Veteran Member
I believe that the universe has been created accidentally by Bob, the invisible almighty turtle, after eating too many spiritual beans. That is what we believe to have been the sacred initial Bob’s Big Fart that created reality. The initial cause of everything. There are also deep philosophical and bobological studies concerning this.

I hope to get the same amount of respect for that. In the interest of diversity of course, since our belief is on par with all other beliefs, for what concerns evidence.

Ciao

- viole

It depends on your motive, viole. Are you being honest? Or are you actually making fun of me?
 
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viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
It depends on your motive, violence. Are you being honest? Or are you actually making fun of me?

Fun?

I just made up a new religion. Is making up a religon today fun, while making one up 2000 years ago is not?

Incidentally, maybe I did not make it up, Maybe i have been inspired by the holy Bob spirit, who can say?

Since my religion has the same evidence of yours, why do you call it fun?

Ciao

- viole
 

Cooky

Veteran Member
Fun?

I just made up a new religion. Is making up a religon today fun, while making one up 2000 years ago is not?

Incidentally, maybe I did not make it up, Maybe i have been inspired by the holy Bob spirit, who can say?

Since my religion has the same evidence of yours, why do you call it fun?

Ciao

- viole

*Making* fun means to mock. Are you mocking..? :cool:

...Because typically, that's a form of degradation.
 

SalixIncendium

अग्निविलोवनन्दः
Staff member
Premium Member
I believe that the universe has been created accidentally by Bob, the invisible almighty turtle, after eating too many spiritual beans. That is what we believe to have been the sacred initial Bob’s Big Fart that created reality. The initial cause of everything. There are also deep philosophical and bobological studies concerning this.

I hope to get the same amount of respect for that. In the interest of diversity of course, since our belief is on par with all other beliefs, for what concerns evidence.

Ciao

- viole
Fun?

I just made up a new religion. Is making up a religon today fun, while making one up 2000 years ago is not?

Incidentally, maybe I did not make it up, Maybe i have been inspired by the holy Bob spirit, who can say?

Since my religion has the same evidence of yours, why do you call it fun?

Ciao

- viole

Well then, since you just made up a new religion, and this thread is about identifying with the religion of another and labeling yourself that religion (which would be Catholic in this circumstance), you are no longer on topic. Please start your own thread.

kthxbai
 

Duke_Leto

Active Member
Pretty much the same question I asked George. Why do you feel it's your responsibility to defend the term 'athiest' correct the Mickey Mouse worshiper and prevent them from muddying the waters?

The apples are still being held at the room temperature and taste the same whether they are being sold into produce aisle or the flour aisle. You already know where they are and what they are mistakenly being labeled and located, so why do you feel it is your responsibility to have the apples relabeled moved since you're not employed by the grocer? Why is it your responsibility to keep people from getting ****ed off at the mislocation?

I think the analogy is falling apart. In this scenario I don't know where the apples are: When I talk to someone, we both have differing ideas of what apples are and where they are, so I wouldn't know where to look for them in the store. It's irritating because words ought to have commonly agreed meanings, and ignoring them is either an attempt to confuse others, to redefine the word, or the result of not bothering to learn the meaning of it beforehand.
 

SalixIncendium

अग्निविलोवनन्दः
Staff member
Premium Member
I think the analogy is falling apart. In this scenario I don't know where the apples are: When I talk to someone, we both have differing ideas of what apples are and where they are, so I wouldn't know where to look for them in the store. It's irritating because words ought to have commonly agreed meanings, and ignoring them is either an attempt to confuse others, to redefine the word, or the result of not bothering to learn the meaning of it beforehand.

When I was a child, I used to wonder why different people have different favorite colors. It occurred to me in my 9 year old mind that it was a possibility that everyone had the same favorite color and saw that same color, but their eyes perceived it differently due to variances in their genetic makeup so they learned to call the same color by different names.

If you know what apples look like, you will eventually find them in whatever aisle they're in without the assistance of someone that calls them grain. Is it in any way a redeeming quality to track that person who refers to them as grain after you've found them, shove one in his face, and say, "This is not a grain, THIS IS AN APPLE!!?"
 

Duke_Leto

Active Member
When I was a child, I used to wonder why different people have different favorite colors. It occurred to me in my 9 year old mind that it was a possibility that everyone had the same favorite color and saw that same color, but their eyes perceived it differently due to variances in their genetic makeup so they learned to call the same color by different names.

If you know what apples look like, you will eventually find them in whatever aisle they're in without the assistance of someone that calls them grain. Is it in any way a redeeming quality to track that person who refers to them as grain after you've found them, shove one in his face, and say, "This is not a grain, THIS IS AN APPLE!!?"

There's no need to be that rude about it, but I'd still be annoyed if people suddenly began to call apples a grain.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Sure, those that are doing taijiquan (or as described above, "Faux Chi") in the YouTube videos may be sharing something with others that may be misleading, but if they think they are doing it right, is the onus on them to adjust their practices to prevent misinformation? Or is the onus on the viewer to seek out the correct discipline and practice?
There is the other part where there are those who know better call it out as not real. That way if some novice is looking for information, they have it available rather than being misled. The harder question is when is it appropriate to point out the error, and when is it just better to wink and nod and move on?
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
'Kindness' is the ability to see others in kind. You are the template for each other person you encounter. Whether they are short or tall, have a beauty or dread of hair or dress style, whether they treat others with respect or distain, whether they are "good" or "bad people," artful or clumsy, left-leaning or right, smart or stupid people, rational and sane, or behave incomprehensively, you are the template for each judgement that you will make about someone else. You (each of us) were born with the potential to embody the entire spectrum of human behaviors, attitudes, emotions, and thought. There is nothing others have done--nothing humanity has done--that you won't find in yourself. In finding it in them (in understanding them) you have found it in yourself and judged it in terms of acceptance or rejection. In rejecting it in them, you have rejected a bit of yourself. You are humanity. We all are humanity. To see humanity instead of the good and bad people, artful and clumsy people, smart and dumb people, is to see yourself in them.

That's kindness. That's how our differences don't matter.
 
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