Why Should I Believe The Bible?

[Twilight Hue]

I'm not sure I can follow that logic. I don't even see where the OP says that that comments are limited to the video... rather simply "why wouldn't they quote the bible".

Did I miss something in my reading?

Yes. The actual history of the Bible itself, and how it came about right up to the present version* it is today.

*More accurately versions. A whole lot of them.

 

[Audie]

I would expand this question, to include all of our epistemology:

Why should we believe anything?

By what process do we differentiate between Truth and deception?

Why should Miss Starky's kindergarten instruction be more credible than some movie, or tv announcer, or politician?

Why is the bible subject to derision and skepticism, and all other propaganda sources believed without question?

Some of us tend to believe or disbelieve things
based on evidence.

Research of any kind is conducted in a culture
of doubt, or it is false research.
Religion is a culture of faith-things you cannot
show with evidence, but must simply accept on faith.

You keep worrying about Truth, but you cannot define
it. Let the philosophers go around endlessly, it is
pointless to talk about it here, or anywhere for that matter.

FACTS though, we can do those.

Now as for the bible- it is not very good on facts.
There is zero evidence for any of the supernatural.
Not one demonstrable fact about that in the whole book.

The history etc. is spotty.

The bible is not really the object of derision.
The way people read it and make claims
for its accuracy is often a good cause for
derision. Watch "hydroplate theory" on youtube
for an example of why self styled bible-believers
are in for derision.

Skepticism? That is well applied to most anything.
It is not at all the same sort of thing as derision,
which involves a conclusion about the wrongness /
stupidity of something.

and all other propaganda sources believed without question?

Who here or anywhere is doing that? Talk about a
strawman!
NOBODY who has a clue how to do research or
even do common sense accepts anything without
question.

"Accept without question" is for fools, or, betimes
the religious.

Was that one of those freudian slips, where you
referred to the bible as a propaganda source?

 

[Kenny]

Yes. The actual history of the Bible itself, and how it came about right up to the present version* it is today.

*More accurately versions. A whole lot of them.

Yes... I am aware of the process and that is why I have a better security on its veracity.

It was covered in the video.

 

[Kenny]

I generally don’t like videos for this kind of thing. They make it very easy to brush over weak arguments and make logical leaps without giving the viewer time to stop and think about them.

And you want them to address all of these points within 15 minutes? Along with some Selah times?

 

[Nakosis]

NOTE: The discussion in this thread will be based on the video that will be shown below.


This video addresses the arguments usually given by non-believers. It's only about 15 minutes long.

For those who want to discuss, please watch and we'll discuss the points given in this video on why we should trust the Bible.



Honesty test.

Telephone Test.

Corroboration test.

My issue with the Bible is the God of the Bible doesn't meet my moral standards. It's just not a God that I feel deserves worship. So while I will dismiss the Bible whenever I get a chance, it's not so much about disproving the Bible as much as really hoping it is wrong.

If the God of the Bible does exist, then God is a big disappointment. Certainly not someone worthy of passing judgement on man even if this God was the Creator.

Honesty test - people can truly believe in something, be honest about their belief, and still be completely wrong. Individual honesty does not prove truth.

Telephone test - 5 minutes is a long enough gap for a story to get altered. I doubt we have an accurate picture of many of these historical figures. Words are very limited in their ability to transfer complete ideas. The are many differing opinions about the words in the Bible as to their meaning. No guarantee that anyone has the correct understanding of any passage.

Corroboration test - Lot of copies of questionable eyewitness accounts? Lots of different, historical 3rd party reference to the same source doesn't verify that source.

 

[Marcion]

You become a follower of Jesus according to the teachings of the Christian Church first.
That is the order of things.
And only then do you start studying or listening to the Scriptures that this Christian Church produced and collected.
It is not that you have to believe in the organisational structure of that Church or in the colour of the stones of a church building you may visit occasionaly.
Nor do you have to believe in the words of the early Christians who wrote down their ideas in the Christian Bible or in the Jews who wrote the products of their minds in the collection of the Old Testament part of the Bible.

Even if you disagree with their words from a different Age, you can still be a follower of Jesus and if you wish still also a Christian. You will just be a different type of Christian with different ideas or a different folllower of Jesus with different ideas.

This basic freedom was there in the first two centuries and nobody ever put a stop to that freedom. So if fundamentalist religious types of people want to rob you of that freedom, you should shun them because they contradict the spirit of Jesus Himself.

 

[Zita]

While it was a well thought out video, I still was not convinced I should give the bible a chance cause its true,for no one of those thousands of years witnessed any conversation between God and man or Jesus and man. He said that the holy spirit entered into the men and they wrote scriptures according to the holy spirit that was telling him what to write.
.I actually use to be in the christian faith for 30 plus years, my Aunt was Pentecostal and I went to church with her a lot as well,so you could say I've seen ,experience and heard a whole lot of religious beliefs and practices,and how religion operates for some denominations.

My aunt's church was having a revival and had a strong deliverance ministry, on this particular night a young man came forward and said he wanted to receive the holy ghost so he could experience it and speak in tongues.
So the elders got together like they have before when preforming this ritual and they made a circle around this man annotated his head with holy oil and told him to pay attention to what he feels and do as they do,and they will teach him how to be in the spirit and speak in tongues; they begin to shout "Jesus,Jesus,Jesus" real fast for what seemed like forever, then they told him to begin to say it also.

The man obeyed him and begin to say it faster and faster and faster,then after quite a while, he started moving his head back and forth and moving around all over the circle and began to speak like someone from another country,in a high pitch voice louder and louder and the man was speaking so fast and loud,he did that for awhile, the elders and the church begin to clap and praising the lord for the man had received the holy spirit and was now speaking in tongue,

Now; did they know what they were doing and their technique really worked? or did they get that guy so hyped up and shouting out repetitively the name Jesus that it caused his adrenaline to spike up to the point that he began to sweat and was feeling a little light headed that he convinced himself that what he was feeling had to be the holy spirit in him,and he had been blessed with the gift of speaking in tongue?

Now remember I was young then and use to go to meetings with my aunt , she would give me a coloring book or something to keep me occupied,and not in the way; while they were having their meeting,but I was very inquisitive and I found all that bible talking interesting so I always listened to what they were talking about ,I got a ear full that time,they were talking about the fact that you can't teach anyone to talk in tongue that truly comes from God with no warning and you yourself can't stop till he is done ministering his word to you but they said how it amazed them how many times it's happened, he stated that you can tell when someone is truly speaking in tongue, it doesn't sound like a foreigner at all, its a totally remarkable language that only God knows what's being said unless God has given you the gift of"interpretation"of the tongues. Then the other man said "well we did out duty we got him started now "he'll fake it till he makes it"I couldn't believe church folk were doing this.

I told that story for two reasons,
1.Just because some of those men said the holy spirit entered in them and they wrote his word for him,doesn't make it true,he may have been like the man in the story I just told and only thought it was the holy spirit but in reality they may have been writing their own thoughts.

2.There are a lot of people who read and study the bible and then do it's words out of ego .What a shame,you can't prove the words in the "Bible" are real and you can't be sure the people in church,who claim to know it all are really believing it themselves or really walking in his word.
Whew ;so glad I woke you and left all that craziness. I have a much more peaceful mind.

 

[tosca1]

I generally don’t like videos for this kind of thing. They make it very easy to brush over weak arguments and make logical leaps without giving the viewer time to stop and think about them. I gave it a short though;

Around 1:50, he threw out a thinly veiled Pascal’s Wager, though he didn’t go in to it, presumably because he’s smart enough to know it’s fundamentally flawed. A bad start.

You're referring to the "what if....? I think he did go into it: " if there is a possibility that the Bible is correct, that there is a heaven and a hell, are you 100% positive that the Bible is wrong? Because if you are wrong, a lot is at stake." I take it he means if you are wrong about all the other stuff like, the Messiah, and about the way to salvation etc.., then.....you're betting with your eternal life.

How is that flawed?

Around 2:50, he made some assertions about who wrote the books of the Bible without addressing any of the questions of their authorship. He’s also glossing over how the Bible was compiled and all of the books which weren’t included (though to be fair, that would make a much longer video).

The question of their authorship is irrelevant in the point he's making. Even if the authors are called "anonymous," it doesn't change anything! We'd still have the Bible!

The actual Author is GOD!

These men were EYEWITNESSES to all the things that Jesus had shown.

From around 4:30, he applies the assumption that because the books of the NT say they were written by eyewitnesses, that must be true. He goes on to apply the assumption that because they say the NT is inspired by God, that must be true too. This seems to be a core basis to everything else he says but are obviously flawed assumptions.

Well - it didn't stop there, right? There is a continuation to that, right? The test to see if these men are telling the truth! Timer: 5:51

Beyond that flaw, the Honesty Test is somewhat contradicted if they weren’t writing in their own interests rather than promoting their faith. It doesn’t prove their honesty as much as their desire to promote their faith by definition. If they were really committed, couldn’t they be tempted to embellish the truth for the greater story? It’s also worth noting that they obviously couldn’t know they would be executed when they were writing.

Well, it's true. In a lot of cases, they were pictured like "dumb" - with Jesus exasperated with them, how they don't get it!

Even when Peter tried to save Jesus in a heroic gesture by slashing at the soldier's ear in Getsamane - what happened? It was not the right thing to do! Jesus stopped him!

They were pictured being petty ....and bickering with one another.... doubtful, and .....even asleep on the job!

Mark 14

37 Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. “Simon,” he said to Peter, “are you asleep? Couldn’t you keep watch for one hour?

38 Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.”

They were also depicted as.....cowards! Every man for himself - they ran and hid when Jesus was captured!


If God is the actual Author - any "embellishment" - if there are any - would still have to be from God.

I’d also expect that if someone was writing about their own errors, they’d at least include some level of explanation or justification for why they acted in the way they did but as far as I’m aware, there is little of that in the Bible. I’m not convinced someone coldly reporting their own mistakes without commentary is any more believable than them not reporting their mistakes at all.

Just shows you - they're not the actual authors!

As you said, why wouldn't they have given any explanation for their errors?
Because, it's not about them!

And, they're not really the authors to the Books they wrote!
It's God.

To be continued....

 

[Koldo]

NOTE: The discussion in this thread will be based on the video that will be shown below.


This video addresses the arguments usually given by non-believers. It's only about 15 minutes long.

For those who want to discuss, please watch and we'll discuss the points given in this video on why we should trust the Bible.



Honesty test.

Telephone Test.

Corroboration test.

Let me start by saying that the bible, not even the new testament, was NOT written as a whole by eye witnesses. So this is incorrect right from the start.

Regarding the tests themselves now:

Honesty test: It just means that if true, the disciples really believed in Jesus. It doesn't say anything about whether the claims Jesus made were true in themselves.

The telephone test is not really relevant unless someone questions whether the bible is autenthic.

About the corroboration test, it doesn't mean much when it comes down to extraordinary claims.

 

[Skwim]

The only reason to believe in any "truth" of the Bible would be because unbiased, secular evidence confirms it. Don't have any? Then there's no reason to dust off the book and take it down from the shelf. The inane video presentation is a circular argument:

"Why should I trust what the Bible says?" BECAUSE (as the argument goes) the Bible says it's trustworthy.

(One version)​

.

 

[tosca1]

With The Telephone Test, he clearly cherry picks some extreme examples of other historical documents with long gaps, exaggerates how much credence the details in those documents alone are given and glosses over the claims of the NT to just being about the existence of Jesus the man, in contrast to the existence of the likes of (Julius) Cesar and Alexander the Great. He makes a huge thing about the raw number of manuscripts but doesn’t cover how many are duplicates and doesn’t mention how fragmentary many of those early manuscripts actually are. I’d also question the “50 year” gap he quotes for the earliest NT manuscripts which makes me wonder about the other numbers he quotes that I have no idea about (he, of course, givens no references for any of his factual assertions).

Watch timer: from 8:50

That's not cherry-picking. He's offering what he feels are the best prominent figures for comparison!

And it's true what he says - no one questions the biography of Alexandre the Great, which was written 400 years after he lived (in contrast with Jesus which is only 50 years - and with 4 books by men who personally witnessed Him)! No one questions the existence of Alexandre the Great.

The Corroboration Test takes non-Biblical evidence of the existence of Jesus but goes on to claim that those non-Biblical sources include entire story, including all of the miracles and his actual divinity. That is an outright lie. Notice how quickly he rushes on from that point. He knows what he did.

Coroboration test starts at timer 11:50

Let's sum it up. He said there are 9 non-Christian sources that mentioned Jesus within 150 years of His death....PLUS, another 33 Christian sources = 42 sources OUTSIDE the Bible that speak about Jesus.

In comparison, Tiberius Ceasar - Roman emperor at the time of Jesus - had only 10 manuscripts that mentioned him within 150 years of his life. Jesus has 42 historical references that speak of Him.

He's talking about those other sources (all 42 of them) that tells about all those things about Jesus!
And, he didn't say those non-Christian sources "included the entire story," either.
So....you're definitely wrong on that. Watch it again.

Around 13:00 he repeats a strawman he opened with about all the people who call the Bible “crazy”, as if that is the sole or primary objection to the claims he is actually supporting.

There rest just seems to be empty preaching and a summary.

It's not a strawman! The Bible and the people who believe in it are called various derogatory names.

I also find it interesting that he opens by talking about the OT and the NT yet only delves in the legitimacy of the NT.

And that is why I don’t like videos for this kind of thing.

Why would he not delve only on the NT?
The New Testament is the fulfilment of the prophecies given in the OT!
That's the OT - just the history why we need a messiah - and prophecying about the coming Messiah!

The whole action that concerns us, is on the NT!

 

[Zita]

I think the reason why people question the bible, but not question Alexandre the great books is because Alexandre the great is not telling us how we should live and believe and follow his books or we will be damned., if I am gonna conform to something,and my life depends on it,I wanna make darn sure it's the truth before I follow it and to make sure it's all good.Another reason people question the bible is the fact it's got a lot of crazy ideas in it,things that contradict itself all the time and empty promises,cruel judgement against people ,the very people he created!!This God of the bible is down right scary!!The bible says he wiped out his own creation by flooding the earth killing innocent people for the actions of a few. People are looking at the fact there is total devastation going on in this world and the all mighty God does nothing!! Heck yea I'm confused here.This "God" of the bible is not showing us much at all in the way of Divine Love, this God has no problem seeing his people suffering,the only logical reason is that The Bible is a fake and the God that it portrays has to be fake as well. Now, here me, I didn't say I don't believe in "The Creator" "The Divine Spirit that created mankind and this Universe I said I don't believe in"God"of the book that millions follow everyday known as "The Bible".

 

[corynski]

NOTE: The discussion in this thread will be based on the video that will be shown below.


This video addresses the arguments usually given by non-believers. It's only about 15 minutes long.

For those who want to discuss, please watch and we'll discuss the points given in this video on why we should trust the Bible.



Honesty test.

Telephone Test.

Corroboration test.

Would you believe? It's the humans who create gods and goddesses...... thousands of them actually, and they've done it for thousands of years. Each cultural group indoctrinates their members with a belief system that identifies them as a member of that group. Thus no one who was not brought up in that particular culture can claim to be a member without knowing all the beliefs. Witness it....... everyone..... parents, pastors, friends.... all begin to teach you 'cultural beliefs', long before you can think and reason. It's actually 'brainwashing' and every culture does it. Beliefs are the 'glue' that hold a cultural group together. They have existed for thousands of years, from the earliest times of wind and rain spirits.

Seriously, would you create something as absurd and as insane as this world if you were a 'god'? Would you create a world in which every living creature must eat other living creature, just to stay alive? But that's the fiction we're living with. Would you create two sexes, male and female, knowing that 50% of marriages end in divorce? The Bible is fantasy and fiction, and it provides a common heritage...... The problem is that people believe their religion is a reality, and it's not, it's a cultural creation........

From the very first page of the Bible, it says a 'god' has created the world...... Really? History and anthropology both tell us there were people everywhere at the time when 'God' supposedly created Adam and Eve, for thousands of years there had evolved a 'human' race...... But Anthropology is not allowed to be taught to children, it is the religious myths that must endure, that must be 'sacred', that must be instilled in the child's mind, before he can reason........

Intellectually now is the greatest of all times..... as the truth from the graves becomes known, as our past reality becomes known...... From an era when change was scarcely known, through the thousands and thousands of years of evolution until today we have the knowledge and the tools to learn what the reality of the universe actually is, yet we're still living in the middle of religious wars ......

No, do not believe in the Bible, without seriously putting it into a wider perspective..........

 

[RedDragon94]

Limiting this argument to just the video is telling and further discredits the Bible as a believable. Not that it had much credit to begin with mind you.

I think he might've just wanted to know what arguments people had against these three specific arguments for it.

 

[RedDragon94]

Its a mythological story about good and evil, nothing more then that.

I feel that all mythology has some sort of degree of truth to it. Even if they are just symbolic stories.

Also, just wondering, is the story of Siddhartha Gautama myth or historical fact?

 

[RedDragon94]

Nothing but logical fallacies were presented in that video, a complete waste of time.

Ha, and yet you don't have a single counter-argument I see.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I can only start with one question: why was the Bible written? The corollary question is, of course, why were any other scriptures written, including the Qur'an, Book of Mormon, and others. And next I ask: who wrote the Bible (and all those others)? The answer to these two questions has always seemed to me to be that the Bible (and other scriptures) were written to capture what their authors intuited about the world and our place in it. I am sure many of those authors felt strongly that their intuitions were inspired, or even possibly "revealed."

This leads me to ask: if God is one and unchanging, are all those "revealed" scriptures the same, and if not, why not? Two answers to that: the scriptures are most assuredly not the same, witness the religious differences around the world, and I can think of no divine reason that this should be so. That leaves me with a much more mundane, purely human reason.

Finally, one has to look at what any writing actually says. Does it speak what might be objective truth, and is there any way at all to corroborate any of it? I can read all sorts of ancient works about the history of Rome, the Caesars, and so forth. And what they write can largely be found corroborated in other written works, and also in what remains in the archaeological record. Further, they make very few fantastical claims (Nero was never seen walking on water, Claudius never really though of himself as a god, even though he had been proclaimed one in Colchester.) None, I repeat not one, of the fantastical claims made in the Bible or the Qur'an or the Book of Mormon has even had the tiniest shred of actual evidence to support it.

Reasoning along these lines, I've never been able to come up with any reason why I should consider the Bible, the Qur'an, the Book of Mormon, or any other scripture, to contain more truth than CS Lewis's Narnia books, or Tolkien's Lord of the Rings.

And for the record, there are many deep and profound truths in both Narnia and LOTR. But I believe those for no other reason than that the resonate with me, personally. For the same reason, if you find something you find that expresses a profound truth in the Bible, the Qur'an or anywhere else, and it resonates deeply with you, then go ahead and believe it. Your belief will not be falsified just because it comes from "the wrong book."

 

[RedDragon94]

Would you believe? It's the humans who create gods and goddesses...... thousands of them actually, and they've done it for thousands of years.

Those deities are a bunch of childish punks honestly, the God of the Bible has moral qualitative distinctions about him that make him better. Sorry if that is too offensive for anyone. That's just the way it is. Created deities yield human deficiencies.

Seriously, would you create something as absurd and as insane as this world if you were a 'god'?

The problem that atheists have is that they believe God created the world sinful. This shows that they don't know the story of the Bible at all.

From the very first page of the Bible, it says a 'god' has created the world...... Really? History and anthropology both tell us there were people everywhere at the time when 'God' supposedly created Adam and Eve, for thousands of years there had evolved a 'human' race...... But Anthropology is not allowed to be taught to children, it is the religious myths that must endure, that must be 'sacred', that must be instilled in the child's mind, before he can reason........

So you're saying that processes such as evolution can simply exist on their own? I disagree. How can there be electrical energy in things without some sort of power source and how can life exist without some sort of energy source that is divine? It all makes sense through science + spirituality.

 

[lukethethird]

Ha, and yet you don't have a single counter-argument I see.

Counter arguments are down the hall, this is drive by moonings.

 

[RedDragon94]

I can only start with one question: why was the Bible written? The corollary question is, of course, why were any other scriptures written, including the Qur'an, Book of Mormon, and others.

Because evil has power just as much as good does.

And next I ask: who wrote the Bible (and all those others)? The answer to these two questions has always seemed to me to be that the Bible (and other scriptures) were written to capture what their authors intuited about the world and our place in it. I am sure many of those authors felt strongly that their intuitions were inspired, or even possibly "revealed."

I would partially agree. Humans did write the Bible (I disagree with the video) but they did so under divine superintendence.

None, I repeat not one, of the fantastical claims made in the Bible or the Qur'an or the Book of Mormon has even had the tiniest shred of actual evidence to support it.

Why is there something instead of nothing, i.e., why is there evolution instead of nothing?

Your belief will not be falsified just because it comes from "the wrong book."

Okay so you believe that certain (possibly practical) statements from the Bible, Quran, and Bhagavad Gita are true, but the supernaturalism is what you actively disbelieve?