Why should God bother giving evidence ?

[stvdv]

IF, the existence of God will not bring any change in your daily life style,

Then, why should God bother giving any evidence/proof ?

God has given plenty of evidence/proof

So, the natural follow-up question would be "Why don't people bother to find the God-provided evidence/proof?"

 

[Trailblazer]

But besides that, if God can't be selfish then he couldn't have created us in the first place, because what other reason could there have been, if it weren't because God desired it, as he were the only one around, that could find pleasure in anything?

You are one sharp cookie Nimos, you got me on that one.
Yes, God created us out if a desire for us to know Him and love Him..

3: O SON OF MAN! Veiled in My immemorial being and in the ancient eternity of My essence, I knew My love for thee; therefore I created thee, have engraved on thee Mine image and revealed to thee My beauty.

4: O SON OF MAN! I loved thy creation, hence I created thee. Wherefore, do thou love Me, that I may name thy name and fill thy soul with the spirit of life.

5: O SON OF BEING! Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee. Know this, O servant.

The Hidden Words of Baha'u'llah

 

[stvdv]

It is really quite the opposite. God has no needs so God cannot be selfish, so everything we get from God, including evidence of His existence, is because God cares about our well-being.

First of all, we are only talking about a creator God in this example, nothing else is know about it

Sounds quite big to me

But besides that, if God can't be selfish then he couldn't have created us in the first place, because what other reason could there have been, if it weren't because God desired it, as he were the only one around, that could find pleasure in anything?

That is a very good observation !
So, do you not believe in "unselfish acts"?
How would you define "unselfish" or "selfless" acts?

 

[viole]

Can't you see that science is not MY religion......I do not put my faith in men of science who basically have only scratched the surface when it comes to knowing all there is to know about life and the universe.

Well, it seems a bit of scratching is enough to dismiss your holy book already after the first page. At least if you take it literally.

And I told you. Try to do what you are doing (communicating with me using the results of science and technique) by praying. You will have a point when you reach the same results, at least approximately. I am not holding my breath.

we need him.

You need him. I can do very well without him. He is totally superfluous, at least from my point of view.

Anyway, you are still failing to address my objection to your so-called evidence. Do you agree that singling out the bubonic plague, parasitic wasps, children cancer, etc. as evidence of God, too, because of explanations in the Bible (which you need to assume true a-priori to make sense), is circular reasoning?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Nimos]

That is a very good observation !
So, do you not believe in "unselfish acts"?
How would you define "unselfish" or "selfless" acts?

I have no issues with being unselfish and the definition in this case is not really important. Because in order to even talk about "selfish" and "unselfish" you need at least two living or thinking entities capable of understanding feelings.

If you want to be unselfish you need someone to relate to, you can't really be unselfish in regards to a rock or no one if you are the only one that exist.

 

[Deeje]

Well, it seems a bit of scratching is enough to dismiss your holy book already after the first page. At least if you take it literally.

There is definitely a way to take it literally if you understand that the creative "days" were not 24 hour periods.

And I told you. Try to do what you are doing (communicating with me using the results of science and technique) by praying. You will have a point when you reach the same results, at least approximately. I am not holding my breath.

What do you think prayer is? Apparently you have a very different idea to me.

You need him. I can do very well without him. He is totally superfluous, at least from my point of view.

I'm sure he is aware of your views....and he will certainly not force you to do anything against your will.

Anyway, you are still failing to address my objection to your so-called evidence. Do you agree that singling out the bubonic plague, parasitic wasps, children cancer, etc. as evidence of God, too, because of explanations in the Bible (which you need to assume true a-priori to make sense), is circular reasoning?

If you dismiss the Bible's explanation without hearing it, how do you know even what it is that you are dismissing? Your own reasoning is circular. I have answers....you have none. I need answers, and you don't....simple. Never the twain shall meet.

"Don't know and don't want to know"...how do you even address that?

 

[stvdv]

I have no issues with being unselfish

Okay, so then God could have been unselfish creating the world

the definition in this case is not really important

Okay

Because in order to even talk about "selfish" and "unselfish" you need at least two living or thinking entities capable of understanding feelings.

Okay, so that proves that God was not selfish when creating started

 

[Nimos]

Okay, so then God could have been unselfish creating the world

Seems we have to get the definition in anyway

Unselfish
willing to put the needs or wishes of others before one's own.

Selfish
(of a person, action, or motive) lacking consideration for other people; concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure.

If you agree with those definitions, then it would not be possible him to be unselfish as he is the only God, so there would only be his wishes. On the other hand he would have had to be selfish, because he can only have his on motive for doing it. It doesn't mean that he had ill intentions or anything. Its simply the only way it can work logically as I see it.

 

[viole]

There is definitely a way to take it literally if you understand that the creative "days" were not 24 hour periods.

So, you agree that water before the stars is nonsense, right?

What do you think prayer is? Apparently you have a very different idea to me.

If I remember correctly, you can move mountains, if you ask it in the name of the Lord. Or something of the sort. I promise I will be equally impressed if you pray and manage to move Mt. Sinai to New Jersey, for instance.

If you dismiss the Bible's explanation without hearing it, how do you know even what it is that you are dismissing? Your own reasoning is circular. I have answers....you have none. I need answers, and you don't....simple. Never the twain shall meet.

"Don't know and don't want to know"...how do you even address that?

Well, then you should then start with that, instead of saying that the stars, the sky, the beautiful birds or whatever are evidence of a creator, supposedly your flavour thereof. Because if you do not first prove that the Bible is true, you cannot use it to rebuke my "then bubonic plague and children cancer are evidence too", by saying the Bible has a good explanation for those things. Makes no logical sense, whatsoever.

But if you could show that the Bible is true, then why do you need to use the sky, the beautiful birds, etc. as evidence? Seems totally redundant, especially because they might point to a different God, while your Holy Book tells you straight away the right one.

Ciao

- viole

 

[stvdv]

FAQ1: Supposed-God for the purpose of this thread is the "One" who has created all the things that you see all around you.

FAQ2: If you require any more additional information about this Supposed-God you can ask.

I like your FAQ1 + FAQ2. Thist is very useful when talking about God. I fully accept your "Supposed-God" in this thread

Hence, I would like (need) some additional information about "Supposed-God" in this thread

Question to @chinu = Did this "Supposed-God" created "all the things that we see around us" out of:
a) Selfishness
b) Unselfishness

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

This is the problem with Chinu's hypothetical.
Merely knowing of God's existence, without any other(more helpful) information, is pretty useless.

Personally, I'm an agnostic deist. I have no problem using the term God to describe the answer to the question "Why is there something, rather than nothing?" But that's where it ends. This doesn't tell you anything important about God whatsoever. Religious folks then go on to make all sorts of claims about God and such. That looks delusional to me.

I've looked into the claims. It's a huge pile of unsupported assertions, incoherent concepts, and poor logic. Much of it is mutually exclusive and internally inconsistent. It's drenched in ego and wishful thinking. It's just what I'd expect if various humans, over the course of thousands of years, made up stories and explanations for things that they really know nothing about.
Tom

The problem with Chinu's thinking is that god would prove he exists and then give us no clue to how we carry on. That's illogical and not the thing anyone expects from a god.

So much suffering happens around the world perpetrated by people who do or don't believe that a god who loves us would want to end. So many twisted versions of how to worship exist that a god that cares about us put right. So it's either this god doesn't exist or doesn't care.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

Let me just point out a few things.....

This is fascinating to me because you "believe" what science has told you about the way life evolved on planet Earth....right? But, since scientists cannot prove that their theory is true, it has to be accepted on "faith"....you "believe" what you have been told, and you promote it as your truth....science is your metaphoric religion. You trust them.....but that requires as much "faith" as you think we have.

I stopped reading here because you're 100% wrong. Science isn't a religion, scientists have proven their findings are true and don't ask anyone to believe them on faith.

Give us actual findings that you feel aren't proven.

 

[chinu]

I like your FAQ1 + FAQ2. Thist is very useful when talking about God. I fully accept your "Supposed-God" in this thread

Hence, I would like (need) some additional information about "Supposed-God" in this thread

Question to @chinu = Did this "Supposed-God" created "all the things that we see around us" out of:
a) Selfishness
b) Unselfishness

None of them.

Cuscuta - Wikipedia
Dodder: No leaves, no roots. Just a mission
Cuscuta (Dodder) is a plant that has NO own roots, but still grows around the another plant.
Similarly, selfishness grows around the God.

 

[Left Coast]

Reminds me of the story of a man sitting on a rooftop. Water is rising. A few boats with come along offering help. Man insist "God must come to help me". Man drowns coming at the "Gate of Heaven", blaming God for not rescuing him, to which God answers "I send many people with boats"

Note: His choice is not bad. Made him enter Heaven a little early, that's all. Heaven being heavenly...I could argue "a good choice after all"

I've heard the story, yes.

Reminds me of another saying: God helps those who help themselves.

 

[chinu]

I've heard the story, yes.

Remind me of another saying: God helps those who help themselves.

Yes its a good story. But, NOT fits here. I don't know why he put it here.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

God has given plenty of evidence/proof

So, the natural follow-up question would be "Why don't people bother to find the God-provided evidence/proof?"

What evidence? It's not anything to do with evolution and the natural world. Because if it was that would make god responsible for all the bad things in nature.

So where is the proof? It's written he did a lot of telling people what to do at the beginning of the bible stories. The problem is most of those have been proven to be untrue. Creation is a myth, Garden of Eden, Cain and Abel, simply because Humans are 500,000years old and spent most of that time as Hunter-Gatherers in Africa. A few left Africa and started to populate the world. Evolution changed the appearance of them to suit their environment.
,
According to the bible, it states the Earth is 6,000 years old. Giving a timeline that can be traced. Wrong the Earth is 4.5 billion years old.

More stories that have later been proven to be myths. Sodom and Gomorrah, Walls of Jericho, Plagues, Ark of the Covenant, Flood, etc.

Even so, if he was bothered to reveal himself to the Early Jews, why is he so quiet now? On the evidence, one can only conclude that like every other religion he's made up.

 

[stvdv]

Reminds me of the story of a man sitting on a rooftop. Water is rising. A few boats with come along offering help. Man insist "God must come to help me". Man drowns coming at the "Gate of Heaven", blaming God for not rescuing him, to which God answers "I send many people with boats"

Note: His choice is not bad. Made him enter Heaven a little early, that's all. Heaven being heavenly...I could argue "a good choice after all"

Yes its a good story. But, NOT fits here. I don't know why he put it here.

Because it does fit here

Asking God to provide evidence is exactly the same as asking God to rescue me in the boat analogy, hence the story fits perfectly

God also gave many Scriptures, describing in detail how to get Self Realized. On top of that God has sent many Saints.
AND least but not last, God gave human brains, discrimination and the ability to achieve Self Realization.
God gave 1 mouth to ask questions, but also 2 ears to listen to the Wise, who have gone this Path

Yoga Vashista puts it very simple "Self Effort is most important".
Demanding God to provide evidence, is the opposite of Self Effort
How much evidence you need? Still demanding God to give proof?

 

[stvdv]

I've heard the story, yes.

Reminds me of another saying: God helps those who help themselves.

Yes, also a good one, I like it too. I could have selected that one also. Shorter, and more literal.

 

[stvdv]

What evidence? It's not anything to do with evolution and the natural world

IF you want to know about mathematics, you study math not an ancient language like Latin
IF you want to know about Self Realization, you study Scripture dealing with Self Realization, not Math

 

[stvdv]

None of them.

Cuscuta - Wikipedia
Dodder: No leaves, no roots. Just a mission
Cuscuta (Dodder) is a plant that has NO own roots, but still grows around the another plant.
Similarly, selfishness grows around the God.

Thanks for the extra KEY
You gave away a huge KEY
For the one who is vigilant