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Featured Why Quran rejects crucifixion of Christ by the Jews?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by InvestigateTruth, Jan 23, 2020.

  1. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Jesus didn't even squawk about the likeness of Caesar on Roman coin. I don't think he was seditious. In the Sermon on the Mount he promotes non violent resistance to Roman oppression.
     
  2. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    For the romans, its sedition.

    Why do you think the romans killed other people who claimed to be the "Messiah" at the same time? Is it because the Jews were eternally demanding all of them to be killed and the Romans were afraid of the Jews?

    Not really. Its sedition. And many were killed.
     
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  3. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Before Jesus?

    List of Messiah Claimants - Jewish Messiah Claimants
     
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  4. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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  5. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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  6. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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  7. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Other than King Cyrus of Persia wasn't he the only other messiah?
     
  8. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    There were many. Cyrus was more than half a millennium before Jesus. I am talking about Jesus, and his time. And during that time, many were killed by the romans for claiming to be a Messiah

    But nevertheless i am finding it difficult to understand what really you are looking for here.
     
  9. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    What happened to Jesus according to Quran?
    Was He killed by Romans?
    Did He die naturally eventually?
    Did Allah took His body up to Himself, while He was alive?

    Are you able to say exactly what happened to Jesus from Quran, without just taking guesses, or saying probably so, and so? Is Quran clear on this subject regarding what happened to Jesus? I am looking for an honest discussion.
     
  10. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    You make a good point....but when a government appoints an executioner to carry out the death penalty, the executioner is not a murderer.....is he? If the prisoner is innocent, and the people who ordered his execution are corrupt, the executioner is simply following orders. But if he was a party to torture or other human rights abuses before the execution took place, then he stands guilty.

    Putting a finer point on this, your example of the Nuremberg Trials is certainly an example of the latter. We are not talking about the execution of an innocent man, but the mass murder of millions of Jews and others in the Nazi death camps. Jehovah’s Witnesses were among them. The treatment of those in the camps was despicable....satanic even.

    It was the deliberate ill-treatment meted out to a despised people in an attempt to wipe them out of existence....genocide. For Hitler, it was personal, not political.
    All opposition to the Nazi regime was to be quashed, but the Jews had not done anything to deserve what Hitler did to them. He engendered hatred for them in a way that beggars belief.

    The difference between JW’s and the Jews in those camps was that Hitler simply viewed the Jews as vermin to be exterminated. His hatred for JW’s was because we would not “hell Hitler”, nor would we serve or support his hateful regime. He could not force us to do that even under threat of death. He offered us freedom, if we renounced our faith by signing a paper stating that we were no longer Jehovah’s Witnesses. It didn’t work any more than it did when the Roman Emperor offered the early Christians their freedom by putting a pinch of incense on the alter as an act of worship to him. They chose to be torn apart by wild animals in the public arenas before they would do that. That is true martyrdom.

    So you see, it’s not the same really...is it?
     
  11. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    I can't find any other first century claimants like Jesus.
     
  12. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    It is clear, but if you play language games with Quran, none of it remains clear except what you desire of it to say.
     
  13. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Its what the Christian scriptures report....
    The Jews had no political power over Rome, but what power they had, they used very cleverly. From the gospel accounts, Pilate presented Jesus as an innocent man......

    John 19:10-15....

    10 So Pilate said to him: “Are you refusing to speak to me? Do you not know that I have authority to release you and I have authority to execute you?11 Jesus answered him: “You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been granted to you from above. This is why the man who handed me over to you has greater sin.” For this reason Pilate kept trying to find a way to release him, but the Jews shouted: “If you release this man, you are not a friend of Caesar. Everyone who makes himself a king speaks against* Caesar.” 13 Then Pilate, after hearing these words, brought Jesus outside, and he sat down on a judgment seat in a place called the Stone Pavement, but in Hebrew, Gabʹba·tha. 14 Now it was the day of Preparation of the Passover; it was about the sixth hour. And he said to the Jews: “See! Your king!” 15 However, they shouted: “Take him away! Take him away! To the stake with him!” Pilate said to them: “Shall I execute your king?” The chief priests answered: “We have no king but Caesar.

    Pilate was facing a charge of treason.....which I believe carried the death penalty. He was blackmailed into doing something his conscience said was wrong, but faced with this threat, he backpeddled. He virtually washed his hands of Jesus' blood.

    If you understand the whole story, you can see that Jesus posed no threat to the Romans at all. He broke no Roman Law, so why would the Romans have reason to arrest him? There had been many false Messiahs, so what would they care about one more? The Jews were basically left to take care of their own problems....but the Pharisees wanted this Jesus silenced. He was making them look bad. They had no authority to execute anyone themselves and they had no grounds under Roman Law to have him put to death......so they applied political blackmail to have the Romans do what they couldn't.


    "What makes Pilate infamous is his investigation of charges made by the Jewish chief priests and older men that Jesus was presenting himself as King. On hearing of Jesus’ mission to bear witness to the truth, Pilate saw that the prisoner presented no threat to Rome. “What is truth?” he asked, evidently thinking that truth was too elusive a concept to merit much attention. His conclusion? “I find no crime in this man.”—John 18:37, 38; Luke 23:4.
    That should have been the end of Jesus’ trial, but the Jews insisted that he was subverting the nation. Envy was the chief priests’ reason for turning Jesus over, and Pilate knew it. He also knew that releasing Jesus would cause trouble, something he wanted to avoid. There had been enough of that already, for Barabbas and others were in custody for sedition and murder. (Mark 15:7, 10; Luke 23:2) Moreover, previous disputes with the Jews had tarnished Pilate’s reputation with Tiberius, who was notorious for dealing severely with bad governors. Yet, to give in to the Jews would be a sign of weakness. So Pilate faced a dilemma.


    On hearing where Jesus was from, Pilate tried to pass the case on to Herod Antipas, district ruler of Galilee. When that failed, Pilate attempted to get those gathered outside his palace to ask for Jesus’ release, in accord with the custom of freeing a prisoner at Passover. The crowd clamored for Barabbas.—Luke 23:5-19.


    Pilate may have wanted to do what was right, but he also desired to save himself and please the crowd. Finally, he put his career ahead of conscience and justice. Calling for water, he washed his hands and claimed innocence in the death he now sanctioned.* Though he believed that Jesus was innocent, Pilate had him scourged and allowed soldiers to mock, strike, and spit upon him.—Matthew 27:24-31.


    Pilate made a final attempt to free Jesus, but the crowd shouted that if he did so, he was no friend of Caesar. (John 19:12) At that, Pilate caved in. One scholar said this about Pilate’s decision: “The solution was easy: execute the man. All that was to be lost was the life of one apparently insignificant Jew; it would be foolish to let trouble develop over him.”

    Who Was Pontius Pilate? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

    Its all in the scriptures.....if you accept them as written, which I do.
     
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  14. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    False Messiahs. After Jesus’ death, the Jews followed many false Messiahs, as Jesus had foretold. (Mt 24:5) “From Josephus it appears that in the first century before the destruction of the Temple [in 70 C.E.] a number of Messiahs arose promising relief from the Roman yoke, and finding ready followers.” (The Jewish Encyclopedia, Vol. X, p. 251) Then, in 132 C.E., Bar Kokhba (Bar Koziba), one of the most prominent of the pseudomessiahs, was hailed as Messiah-king. In crushing the revolt that he led, Roman soldiers killed thousands of Jews. While such false Messiahs illustrate that many Jews were primarily interested in a political Messiah, they also show that they properly expected a personal Messiah, not just a Messianic era or Messianic nation. Some believe Bar Kokhba was a descendant of David, which would have aided his Messianic claim. However, since the genealogical records evidently were destroyed in 70 C.E., later claimants to the office of Messiah could not establish proof that they were of David’s family. (The Messiah therefore had to appear before 70 C.E., as Jesus did, in order to prove his claim as the heir of David. This shows that persons still looking for the Messiah’s earthly appearance are in error.) Among such later false claimants to messiahship were Moses of Crete, who asserted he would divide the sea between Crete and Palestine, and Serenus, who misled many Jews in Spain. The Jewish Encyclopedia lists 28 false Messiahs between the years 132 C.E. and 1744 C.E.—Vol. X, pp. 252-255.
    Messiah — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
     
  15. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    I know there were Messianic claimants AFTER Jesus, but we are talking about before Jesus.. and the only one I know about is Simon of Peraea.
     
  16. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    The way I take, it appears means it looked like they killed him, but the fact that he came from his grave after 3 days, showed he never died! And the phrase "none of the people of the book will there be but that will believe in him before his death", it has to be about Jesus' death as the verses before are all discussing THAT.
     
  17. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    "Using 455 B.C.E. as a starting point for counting the sixty-nine weeks of years (483 years), we find that a “messiah” or “anointed one” was scheduled to arrive in 29 C.E. Were the Jews expecting a “messiah” at that time? Did a “messiah” make his appearance then?

    Alluding to Daniel chapter 9, a well-known rabbi of the seventeenth century C.E., Manasseh ben Israel, stated: “There are some who would accept those 70 cycles of seven as saying that after their end the Messiah would come. . . . Indeed, all of the Jews who took up arms against the Romans at that time were of that opinion.” Jewish scholar Abba Hillel Silver observes: “The Messiah was expected around the second quarter of the first century C.E.” The Babylonian Talmud, in its Tractate Sanhedrin, folio 97a speaks of the “seven year cycle at the end of which the son of David [the Messiah] will come.” So the Jews were expecting, not just any “messiah,” but the Messiah, the “son of David,” to appear at the very time indicated in Daniel chapter 9.
    Who Is the Messiah of the Book of Daniel? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

    According to a Google search...."Simon of Peraea or Simon son of Joseph was a former slave of Herod the Great who rebelled and was killed by the Romans in between 4 BC and 15 AD. Some have identified him as possibly being the messiah of Gabriel's Revelation, but this is disputed. He is mentioned by Flavius Josephus."

    There are no other "messiahs" at that time but Jesus.
     
  18. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    It was prophesied that he had to die in order to offer his blood to redeem fallen mankind. If he did not die then our ransom was never paid.

    Jesus himself said that he would be dead in his tomb but that he would rise on the third day. He was resurrected from the dead like Lazarus was, by the power of God's spirit. (John 11:11-14)
     
  19. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Daniel was written in 167 BC about Antiochus IV Epiphanes and his persecution of the Jews during the Maccabean Revolt.
     
  20. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    The Gospel of John was written decades after the crucifixion.

    Gospel of John

    The Hellenization of Jesus is particularly interesting.
     
    #60 sooda, Jan 25, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2020
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