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Why Orthodox Judaism?

Discussion in 'Orthodox Judaism DIR' started by Doodlebug02, Feb 13, 2010.

  1. Doodlebug02

    Doodlebug02 Active Member

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    Hi everyone. Why did you choose to be an Orthodox Jew if you are a convert? If not, why do you continue to stay as an Orthodox Jew?
     
  2. ATAT

    ATAT Member

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    I chose to convert to Orthodox Judaism because I believe that praying to a man is idol worship.

    Even if Jesus really is God, then, at best, that would be permitted / required idol worship.

    But since the Jewish Scriptures are so clear that no idol worship is permitted, then Jesus can't be God.
     
  3. arimoff

    arimoff Active Member

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    How can you convert and not be an orthodox Jew? a real kosher conversion involves taking on and keeping the mitzvot otherwise its not a conversion and you did not become Jewish.
     
  4. Levite

    Levite Higher and Higher

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    You can convert and be a Conservative Jew. Conservative Judaism converts people using the correct halakhic process, however that movement has a different interpretation of what constitutes "kabbalat 'ohl mitzvot" than do the Orthodox movements. Kosher conversion, but not Orthodox. I sat on such a Bet Din myself not a month ago.
     
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  5. arimoff

    arimoff Active Member

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    I'm not familiar with conservative conversions but if you say they work with the correct halakhic process then its kosher for me:D
     
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  6. ATAT

    ATAT Member

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    One can have a kosher conversion, and then change their minds.

    The argument is that if someone converts and doesn't uphold the mitzvos right away, then they probably never meant to keep it in the first place.

    But no one, presumably not even Rabbi Tropper, holds that a kosher conversion means that Jewish identity depends on future actions.

    Otherwise, every convert has the escape clause of, the moment they don't keep a commandment, then they don't have to do so because they were never Jewish retroactively. There is no such escape clause.

    For instance, imagine a conversion, the person comes up from the water, the phone rings and it's his non-Jewish mother telling him that she'll kill herself if he doesn't serve Jesus.

    The person then turns to the Bais Din and asks, 'If I'm a Jew, I'll stay a Jew, but can I change my mind? If yes, how long do I have to decide?"

    That's impossible. If they had proper das (intention) at the moment of t'vilah (dipping into the water), then that's game over, they're Jewish, obligated to keep Shabbos, kosher, etc etc.

    The typical case is if a person converts to marry a Jew, then divorces shortly after, then stops doing Jewish things right away, then it is suspected that maybe they never meant to be Jewish, they were just going through the motions to be married.

    Or another case of someone converting to marry, then stops being religious right away even without a divorce.

    However, everyone agrees that, in theory and practice, if someone converts with proper intent and proper bais din and proper mikvah, then they are Jewish even if they suddenly get a brain tumor and can't resist pork. If you can pin some key thing or event or something to show why there was a change *after* the conversion, then that can be the reason, and if so, the person is 100% Jewish.

    Of course, the 'change' can be the divorce, in which case *if the divorce* is the reason for becoming non-religious, then they're Jewish even if they don't keep the commandments. (I know they're around here some place, where did they go?)

    Imagine a conversion and then suddenly the Nazis break in, point a gun, and the convert changes his mind.

    I can't imagine the conversion would be over-turned.

    He won't get shishi (high honors) the next day, but that's another story.

    What he should be asking, is, "How did Nazis make such a strong come-back 65 years after Hitler died?"
     
    #6 ATAT, Jul 19, 2010
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2010
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  7. ATAT

    ATAT Member

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    By that definition, any conversion is 'Kosher'.

    Kosher is a generic term, meaning 'straight'.

    So, of course, even Reform would call their conversions 'kosher'.

    And, why exclude the Messianics?

    What do they do for the conversion process? Use ice cubes? Add foreskin? Make you eat a plate of pork?

    And why be rude and exclude the Catholics? Don't they believe they are really the current 'Chosen People', since the Jews rejected Jesus?

    Hey, Mirriam, I've got good news and bad news.

    The good news is, now I'm a member of the chosen people!

    The bad news is my priest won't let me marry you.
     
  8. Dena

    Dena Active Member

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    So...you are saying ONLY a Conversion done by an Orthodox Rabbi is valid? I am assuming that is what you are saying since that is the thought of many of the Orthodox.
     
  9. Levite

    Levite Higher and Higher

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    A kosher conversion is one which follows the prescribed order in the halakhah: rejection of other gods and beliefs, acceptance of the yoke of mitzvot and the Covenant, circumcision or hatafat dam brit if male, mikveh; and preferably the convert should have some degree of education in how to observe the commandments.

    The Conservative movement does all of these things. The only difference is that there are conflicts of opinion between Conservative authorities and Orthodox authorities concerning certain elements in halakhah: some matters of isur and heter, and matters of halakhic jurisdiction, interpretation, and authority.

    By rights, none of those elements of difference should negate the doctrine of makhloket l'shem shamayim. But certainly some authorities seem to think that they do so.

    I would suppose that if a Reform Bet Din were to convert someone using the halakhically prescribed methodology, and were committed to following halakhah-- even if their interpretations and decisions were not those I agreed with-- I would consider that a valid conversion.

    Obviously, Messianics are not in any more of a position to claim halakhic veracity than most Reform Jews, and most Messianics are not even Jewish anyhow, so it is a moot point.

    As for the rest, what call is there for rudeness? If you would like to discuss the differences between Orthodox and Conservative Judaism at length, start a thread in the general Judaism DIR, and I will be glad to discuss with you. I will certainly not debate any further than this in the Orthodox DIR, since I am not Orthodox, but even so, I see no call to resort to name-calling in place of calm discussion of halakhic differences. Do I really need to say anything about sinat chinam on erev Tisha b'Av?
     
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  10. ATAT

    ATAT Member

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    My point was Socratic, not a reductio assertion.
     
    #10 ATAT, Jul 19, 2010
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2010
  11. Yona

    Yona Frum Mastah Flex

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    I choose to remain a Jew not only because it's the beliefs of my fore fathers but also because I believe in G-d, torah, etc. It's that simple.
     
  12. Yona

    Yona Frum Mastah Flex

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    Yep, that's right.
     
  13. AmerikanZen

    AmerikanZen Active Member

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    Owning a expensive Jewish bible? plus it should come naturally with God's word and infusion of spirituality.

    It is His goodness that helps you become a better Orthodox.
     
  14. CMike

    CMike Well-Known Member

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    You can convert and be conservative as well or even reform.
     
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