Why Nice Guys finish last...per Machiavelli

[Wu Wei]

The Wicked tend to win, that does seem to be the case, at least in the short term, sometimes long term, throughout history. And it does appear, those nice people (of course the term nice is subjective) who overthrow the wicked people do tend to do it using methods that the wicked used to gain power to varying degrees. But is giving up good intentions to be goal oriented making things better, or ultimately worse. Or is this just saying you need to be wicked to get ahead?

Thoughts ?

 

[sun rise]

"They are not held back by those rigid opponents of change: principles"

So Gandhi was wicked? Lincoln? Martin Luther King? Buddha?

One has to win people over through serious argument...

People can't join the "dark side of the force" to win people to light. Joining the dark side is failure.

[Jesus] was of history's greatest losers.

That's just incorrect. The mission of Jesus was not manifest in his life but after he died. There are on the order of 2.4 billion Christians in the world today. If only by numbers, that's a success.

And while the number is much less than 2.4 billion, many many try to live the message of the Christ. That to me is success.

 

[Stevicus]

The Wicked tend to win, that does seem to be the case, at least in the short term, sometimes long term, throughout history. And it does appear, those nice people (of course the term nice is subjective) who overthrow the wicked people do tend to do it using methods that the wicked used to gain power to varying degrees. But is giving up good intentions to be goal oriented making things better, or ultimately worse. Or is this just saying you need to be wicked to get ahead?

Thoughts ?

Some might argue that the wicked can't be convinced in any other way. One might say that "force is the only language they understand." Slavery had to be ended, but it could only be stopped in one way - not through negotiation or appealing to the better angels of one's nature. Force was the only way. Likewise, force had to be used against those who refused to pay better wages. People need to listen to each other more, but they don't, which leads people to conclude that force is the only answer.

 

[Wu Wei]

So Gandhi was wicked? Lincoln? Martin Luther King? Buddha?

I'm curios, how did you get that out of the video and Machiavelli, because I don't get where that association at all. And I was just asking questions, not saying anyone who succeeded against the wicked were in fact wicked

 

[Wu Wei]

Ok there was some weird quote thing going on so I had to do this response in 2 posts

People can't join the "dark side of the force" to win people to light. Joining the dark side is failure.

I don't think it is saying that, but it might be the ultimate end of what it is saying. It is saying learn from the dark side...which could potentially lead to the dark side...or does it if the person or persons are in fact good

That's just incorrect. The mission of Jesus was not manifest in his life but after he died. There are on the order of 2.4 billion Christians in the world today. If only by numbers, that's a success.

And while the number is much less than 2.4 billion, many many try to live the message of the Christ. That to me is success.

I believe Machiavelli was talking about Jesus in his life time, and not at all about Christiantly. Also in Machiavelli's time (1469 - 1527) there were not 2.4 billion Christians. So in this case it is hard to judge based on current numbers in my opinion

 

[Father Heathen]

It's about being assertive and confident, and "wicked" people tend to be as such more often than "nice" people.

 

[Wu Wei]

Disregard this post, I was having an annoying HTML isse that I finally figured out

 

[Wu Wei]

Some might argue that the wicked can't be convinced in any other way. One might say that "force is the only language they understand." Slavery had to be ended, but it could only be stopped in one way - not through negotiation or appealing to the better angels of one's nature. Force was the only way. Likewise, force had to be used against those who refused to pay better wages. People need to listen to each other more, but they don't, which leads people to conclude that force is the only answer.

I think that is kind of what he is getting at the good have to learn from the wicked because turning the other cheek doesn't work. Not sure if I agree with that, Gandhi being one of the best examples of that not being the way, but then Gandhi's Grandparents were had not even been born in Machiavelli's time

 

[Cooky]

The Wicked tend to win, that does seem to be the case, at least in the short term, sometimes long term, throughout history. And it does appear, those nice people (of course the term nice is subjective) who overthrow the wicked people do tend to do it using methods that the wicked used to gain power to varying degrees. But is giving up good intentions to be goal oriented making things better, or ultimately worse. Or is this just saying you need to be wicked to get ahead?

Thoughts ?

I was actually reading a Bible verse this morning, and thinking about how I cannot follow this teaching while trying to get ahead in my work... And it troubles me...

Ezekiel - Chapter 33 10-20

Son of man, say to the House of Israel, "You are continually saying: Our crimes and sins weigh heavily on us; we are wasting away because of them. How are we to go on living?" 11 Say to them, "As I live -- declares the Lord Yahweh -- I do not take pleasure in the death of the wicked but in the conversion of the wicked who changes his ways and saves his life. Repent, turn back from your evil ways. Why die, House of Israel?" 12 'Son of man, say to the members of your nation, "The uprightness of an upright person will not save him once he takes to wrong-doing; the wickedness of a wicked person will not ruin him once he renounces his wickedness. No one upright will be able to live on the strength of uprightness, having once taken to sinning. 13 If I say to someone upright: You are to live, and then, trusting in this uprightness, he does wrong, none of the uprightness will be remembered; because of the wrong-doing, he will die. 14 If, however, I say to someone wicked: You are to die, and he turns back from sin and does what is lawful and upright, 15 if he returns pledges, restores what he has stolen, keeps the laws that give life and no longer does wrong, he will live and will not die. 16 None of his previous sins will be remembered against him; having done what is lawful and upright, he will live. 17 "But the members of your nation say: What the Lord does is unjust. But it is what you do that is unjust. 18 When an upright person gives up being upright and does wrong, he dies for it. 19 And when a wicked person gives up being wicked and does what is lawful and upright, because of this he lives.

 

[Cooky]

Sadly, it's true... From being raised Catholic, and adopting Christ-like traits, I have spent 16 years without promotion, because I'm too nice. I'm just not demanding enough to be a boss.

...I suppose if I started drinking regularly, I wouldn't be ashamed to scold my apprentices or coworkers. Maybe I wouldn't be so positive, and ensuring toward those around me... Which gets *me* absolutely nowhere.

I just don't fit in, in this world.

 

[Revoltingest]

So Gandhi was wicked? Lincoln? Martin Luther King? Buddha?

New Biography Suggests Gandhi May Not Have Been Such a Nice Guy
Boston U. Panel Finds Plagiarism by Dr. King

 

[Wu Wei]

I just don't fit in, in this world.

I don't either, but to be honest, I'm mostly OK with that

 

[Father Heathen]

"Nice" is often used as a polite way to imply someone is milquetoast, especially if someone is described as "too nice."

 

[Father Heathen]

New Biography Suggests Gandhi May Not Have Been Such a Nice Guy
Boston U. Panel Finds Plagiarism by Dr. King

Gandhi, Lennon, and Mother Teresa were horrble people.

 

[Cooky]

"Nice" is often used as a polite way to imply someone is milquetoast, especially if someone is described as "too nice."

How does someone get over being nice? How do you throw away your own morals, when it's become your nature?

...Or are the "too nice" doomed?

(I haven't had a chance to read Michaveli's The Prince)

 

[osgart]

Good people are not nice. That is a myth. Being nice does not imply that you are good either.

Good people are genuine, mean what they mean, and are dangerous to the wicked.

Good people respect civil free will.

Wicked people force, and intimidate, deceive, and calculate for dishonest gain.

When the wicked prosper life is oppressive, and destructive and when good people prosper life is worthwhile and people grow.

That machiavelli stereotype is a false lie.

Nice is defined by playing good to get what you want.

No one should mistake kindness for nicety.

 

[Father Heathen]

How does someone get over being nice? How do you throw away your own morals, when it's become your nature?

...Or are the "too nice" doomed?

(I haven't had a chance to read Michaveli's The Prince)

Like I mentioned earlier, it's about confidence and assertiveness. You can be either good or bad and possess or lack these qualities. Incels tend to be both milquetoasts and nasty misogynists, for example. As for your morals, do you embrace them because they resonate with your conscience, or is it "This is what I was told, I complied so now I deserve a cookie."?

 

[Father Heathen]

So how am I supposed to cope in a world that doesn’t think like that anymore? Where assertiveness is glorified and humbleness and manners are considered weaknesses?

Your mistake is in believing that they're mutually exclusive. You can be confident and assertive without being rude or arrogant. Look at that Jesus fellow.

 

[Howard Is]

Sadly, it's true... From being raised Catholic, and adopting Christ-like traits, I have spent 16 years without promotion, because I'm too nice. I'm just not demanding enough to be a boss.

...I suppose if I started drinking regularly, I wouldn't be ashamed to scold my apprentices or coworkers. Maybe I wouldn't be so positive, and ensuring toward those around me... Which gets *me* absolutely nowhere.

I just don't fit in, in this world.

The world is run by psychopaths.
A very unfortunate outcome of natural selection.

We should just kill them all, since they are destroying everything.
But we’re not psychopaths...

 

[Cooky]

The world is run by psychopaths.
A very unfortunate outcome of natural selection.

We should just kill them all, since they are destroying everything.
But we’re not psychopaths...

I don't know what's worse. The wicked or AI.

...I kind of see them as AI, to be honest.