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Why must creationism and evolution be seperete?

Discussion in 'Evolution Vs. Creationism' started by Kalidas, Aug 18, 2011.

  1. Kalidas

    Kalidas Well-Known Member

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    2,744
    I am sure actually about 99.9% sure this topic has already been brought up but here it is again. Why must God and evolution be separate? To my Atheist friends I know this argument will fall on deaf ears becuase with God being a part of it it is already dubbed false, so this argument is posed to my creationist friends. So why couldn't evolution be a creation of God used as tool a God machine to create life, and as a way to continue the life without God having to directly effect every creature's exact actions? A Christian friend of mine brought up a really really good point. In most religions people believe God gives all creatures free will. Yet if God directly created and force creatures to make only the reactions their body was created for, then free will would not exist. The idea of God giving all life free will ties perfectly into evolution. Besides we all believe in at least some type of science, i doubt anyone here believes God resides in us and works our every bodily function. We have organs and we know how they work so we are all for the most part completely willing to except that God does not directly effect every aspect of our life. I see evolution as one of the greatest creations of God it allows the work of creation and life preservation to exist and work very well without God needing to directly control every tiny aspect of life. Again as I said before free will is probably the greatest evidence of evolution to the creationist.
     
  2. Gunfingers

    Gunfingers Happiness Incarnate

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    1,357
    Science only deals with things with physical evidence. Deities are supernatural, so including them in evolution doesn't make any sense. That's not to say that evolution works against creator gods, it's actually completely ambivalent on the topic. It's just a description of what happened. Theists who accept evolution usually do believe exactly as you described, that their deity is behind it all.

    Creationists, by contrast, cannot accept evolution because they feel it conflicts with their religious beliefs and nothing, no matter how well evidenced, can be allowed to do that. You'll even see them say that science and physical realities have to take a back seat to what scripture says. That's not me mincing words, either, it's in AiG's Statement of Faith.
     
  3. Breathe

    Breathe Bitter Edgelord :^)

    Messages:
    17,214
    Religion:
    Complicated but fairly consistent
    Simply, it's like this:

    Creationism: God creates humans, or the universe, through supernatural means. Just poofing out of existence, pretty much. Usually the case is from a Christian, and increasingly Islamic school of thought, but there are a few Hindus who believe in creationism also.

    Evolution: Slow, random mutations.

    Creationism and evolution cannot be together; they must always remain separate. I believe what comes to your mind is probably theistic evolution, however?

    Or, are you thinking more along the lines of "Must God and evolution be separate"?
    If so, no, they need not be - I think God with evolution is a much more preferable concept to have than creationism, which lies in ignorance of, basically, the real world, and what evolution actually entails, as is evidenced by statements such as; "I do not believe in evolution because a dog will never evolve into a cat", and such silly statements.

    Awaiting your input. :)
     
  4. Biblestudent_007

    Biblestudent_007 New Member

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    655
    Creationism is a modern development having to do with faith.

    Evolution is a scientific theory about the diversity of life.
     
  5. Kalidas

    Kalidas Well-Known Member

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    2,744
    Oh I see yeah your right Odion I am mixing God and Evolution. okay just a confusion of words. Hmmm well yes I do believe God created everything and that means a set of sciences and circumstances that lead us to where we are today. Isn't this a form of creationism then? Creationists believe God poofed everything into existance I believe God poofed reality and science into existance that then in turn formed everything else into existence. In the end to me at least God still created every thing whether directly (science) or indirectly (life).
     
  6. Breathe

    Breathe Bitter Edgelord :^)

    Messages:
    17,214
    Religion:
    Complicated but fairly consistent
    No worries. Hope I helped. :)

    I personally go for atheistic evolution, despite being a theist. Confusing for some to understand, I suppose. :D
     
  7. idav

    idav Being Staff Member Premium Member

    Messages:
    11,498
    Religion:
    Pantheist
    They don't jive because poofing things into existence is supernatural. If everything just happened by natural means of cause and effect then calling it creation is disingenuous. Creation needs to show where something poofed into existence or where something came out of nowhere other than pre big bang. Otherwise we would just say everything evolved and leave the word 'creation' out.
     
  8. Skwim

    Skwim Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    11,528
    Religion:
    Agnostic
    Please note.

    Creation:
    a. The act of creating.
    b. The fact or state of having been created.
    This can cover anything from the existence of the world to the existence of lollipops.

    Created:
    1. To cause to exist; bring into being.
    2. To give rise to; produce:
    This too can cover anything from the existence of the world to the existence of lollipops.

    Creationism:
    The literal interpretation of the account of the creation of the universe and of all living things related in the Bible. God created each species as it exists/existed.

    Creationist:
    One who believes in creationism.

    Evolution:
    a. A gradual process in which something changes into a different, and usually more complex or better form.
    b. Change in the genetic composition of a population during successive generations, as a result of natural selection acting on the genetic variation among individuals, and resulting in the development of new species.
    So, one can certainly believe god used evolution as means to populate the earth with life. Or one can believe evolution took place without any input from a deity. What one cannot do is reconcile the creationists notion that good poofed everything into existence as it is, with the evolutionist claim that every form of life evolved from a primitive form into its present one.





    (And don't fool yourself, freewill is just an illusion, but that's another discussion. ;))
     
  9. Splarnst

    Splarnst New Member

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    561
    If natural selection is true, then there's no room for supernatural activity. Unless you say that gods miraculously alter DNA to get desired mutations or kill off individuals with undesired genetic variations or something like that. But that seems very odd.
     
  10. Me Myself

    Me Myself Back to my username

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    18,860
    You could say that God poofed things in to existence first and then they started evolving to what they are today.

    I used to beleive that.
     
  11. otokage007

    otokage007 New Member

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    1,147
    God and evolution don't have to be separated. However, the Bible is wrong if evolution is true.

    Evolution and Creationism of course have to be separated. If one is true, the other one is false.
     
  12. Kalidas

    Kalidas Well-Known Member

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    2,744
    Yes I know free wi is a lie lol we are.prediposed to do and act in certain ways because of genes and chemicals. No I do noy believe evolution makes a diety non existant. See as I stated I believe God created evolution and all of the laws of science for that matter. No evolution being true does not make the entire bible false not even slightly. It can alter what people percieve. Christians who believe In evolution can view the old idea of creation (7 days yada yada yada) as jewish mythology. I understand the deffinitions all I am saying is if God created evolution with the intent to create and perserve life how is that not a type of creationism? God is sti in the large sense creating life. Just because humans can actually explain how gods creatiob machine works doesnt make Gods part in it any less significant. If a scientist using bunson burners, tubes, calinters, and etc... Creates life ( I think this is an actual experiment) do we say the scientist didnt create it? No the scientist did all the brain work. This is how I view God for the most part at least in the terms of science. Just because God had a scientific process doesnt make it non creationist its just a new deffinition of creationism. I have mentioned this way to many time in multiple forums. People allow words to to gain so much power that we disallow our selves to mix and form new ideas all on the basis that the dictionary says they are different. Words are very important but they should never replace the idea. So back to the question why isnt this a sub devision of creationism?
     
  13. Breathe

    Breathe Bitter Edgelord :^)

    Messages:
    17,214
    Religion:
    Complicated but fairly consistent
    If one takes it as literal, then yes - but must it be read literally?
     
  14. Splarnst

    Splarnst New Member

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    561
    The same reason that theology and chemistry are separate: God is unnecessary. It's why we don't see this:

    CH4 + 2 O2 + God [​IMG] CO2 + 2 H2O
     
  15. Krok

    Krok New Member

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    786
    Because God is religion and evolution is a scientific theory, called the theory of evolution.

    For exactly the same reason we have for God and atoms being separate. God is religion and the atom is a scientific theory.

    For exactly the same reason we have for God and gravity being separate. God is religion and gravity is a scientific theory.

    For exactly the same reason we have for God and germs are separate. God is religion and a germ is is a scientific theory.

    Should we go on?
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2011
  16. Tristesse

    Tristesse New Member

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    3,341
    There are many people of all different religions who accept evolution and believe in a god. However, a god is not required to explain evolution.
     
  17. idav

    idav Being Staff Member Premium Member

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    11,498
    Religion:
    Pantheist
    This is true but a god is used to explain creationism.
     
  18. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification Staff Member Premium Member

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    26,692
    Religion:
    Buddhism, Anti-Theism
    They don't.

    Creationism and Evolutionism are incompatible, but there is nothing denying God in Evolutionism. And I must assume God, or the belief in it, do not need to deny the facts of Evolution either.



    From what I have seen it is in fact the other way around. Being an Evolutionist has little to do with preconceptions and everything to do with acknowledgeable, concrete facts. Creationism, however, is defined as the rejection of Evolution and therefore needs some degree of ignorance or denial to exist in the first place.



    It is my understanding that for all anyone knows that may very well be the literal truth. I also believe that most Christians and many Muslims have just such a stance.



    Do they? I assume you mean most Christian, or perhaps Abrahamic religions? Far as I know there is no concept of Free Will outside Abrahamic faiths, and it isn't really applicable to animals and other non-sentient beings in any case.



    And indeed it doesn't.



    I beg to differ. Free Will, slippery a concept as it is, is not incompatible with Evolution, I guess. But it doesn't really help it either. In fact, it has little use except as a counter-weight or compensation for some of the excesses of certain conceptions of God.



    I believe some Advaita believers would disagree. Perhaps some Pantheists and other believers as well.



    Free Will is itself of dubious existence, while evolution is a biological fact demonstrated in a daily basis, so I just don't see how that could be.
     
  19. Kalidas

    Kalidas Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,744
    Well this argument has changed so lets continue with the change. To those saying God must be seperate because science makes god obsolete I disagree greatly. I believe in all of science (that which has been proven at least) yet I dont think any of them leave God out of the picture. In the end I could be ultamatly wrong I am very well aware of that fact and am very okay with the possibility of being wrong. In the end I believe in both and do not see an issue with it. Richard Dawkins himself (yes I have read both the God delusion and the greatest show on earth good books five stars all the way) said that if there is a God at all (he gave this God leaa then a 1% chance of existing in the god delusion) it woild be a non active one that had formed all the rules of science as a means to perpetuate the universe. I liked that idea so much I adopted it and it has worked well ever since
     
  20. Protester

    Protester New Member

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    260
    To go to the start of the thread, you really should ask why does Evolution (a religion), Intelligent Design (just acknowledging the fact what has happened took a creator as a First Cause to create the universe), and Creationism which is closely tied to the Judeo-Christian religions.

    As Henry Morris pointed out in his commentary Evolution Is Religion--Not Science and quite well I might add, The Scientific Case Against Evolution.

    Actually ID'ers may not even be Christian and sometimes put out articles such as, What Intelligent Design Offers to Agnostics. I would also some atheists while not becoming Christian adopted the idea of Intelligent Design, see the obituary for Professor Antony Flew: philosopher

    Of course as far as Jews and Christians are concerned--

    Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.---Scripture Quotations Taken from the NASB

    So, while Creationists and ID'ers basically get along, since the religion of Evolution is so hostile to Jewish and Christian religions, we end up getting into vigorous disagreements.:sorry1:
     
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