Why Mormons hate gov't welfare

[yossarian22]

I'm assuming you're planning on returning your social security checks.

You realize that you are taxed for social security for every dollar you earn.

 

[lillitruthseeker]

this thread is so an example of people even in dire circumstances thinking they are better than other people because of the god they believe in -- people helping people is what we all should be doing -- but assuming that mormons are superior because they do some work for free handouts is really getting on my nerves -- those are the people I think of who have like 17 kids -- when your family is that large how can you feed all those mouths without help? you can't -- real men wouldnt make their women into breeders -- they would only have as many children as they could care for realistically

ok maybe that was mean but i am beginning to feel LDS people have some kind of disillusion and superiority complex -- my cousin calls them the bad wicked people to her children when they come to the door -- i used to think that was terrible but now I think she might be right

 

[Katzpur]

this thread is so an example of people even in dire circumstances thinking they are better than other people because of the god they believe in -- people helping people is what we all should be doing -- but assuming that mormons are superior because they do some work for free handouts is really getting on my nerves -- those are the people I think of who have like 17 kids -- when your family is that large how can you feed all those mouths without help? you can't -- real men wouldnt make their women into breeders -- they would only have as many children as they could care for realistically

Nobody has said Mormons are superior, lillitruthseeker. You obviously don't care much for the Latter-day Saints, but please don't make accusations that aren't true. Catholics and Latter-day Saints both have larger families than most other Christians. So what? As for what "real men" do, what makes you more qualified than the next person to say who's a "real man" and who isn't?

ok maybe that was mean but i am beginning to feel LDS people have some kind of disillusion and superiority complex

Could you point me to some specific statements that led you to this conclusion?

...my cousin calls them the bad wicked people to her children when they come to the door -- i used to think that was terrible but now I think she might be right

I think anyone who would call us "bad wicked people" is either just uninformed or paranoid. How many Latter-day Saints do you know personally? Are they "bad wicked people"? How do you define a "bad wicked person"? Is it someone who is proud to point out that his Church has addressed a serious social issue in a way that appears to be highly successful? Just what am I missing here?

People with this kind of attitude is the reason I am a member of RF. Maybe, if you open up your mind just a bit, you'll come to realize that there is no reason whatsoever for you to be so judgmental of us.

 

[Bishka]

I'm assuming you're planning on returning your social security checks.

When I'm old and grey?

Perhaps, I don't see myself needing them, but who knows what will come, but I am working hard my whole entire life and hopefully will be working for my community when I start receiving them.

 

[DeepShadow]

this thread is so an example of people even in dire circumstances thinking they are better than other people because of the god they believe in -- people helping people is what we all should be doing -- but assuming that mormons are superior because they do some work for free handouts is really getting on my nerves -- those are the people I think of who have like 17 kids -- when your family is that large how can you feed all those mouths without help? you can't -- real men wouldnt make their women into breeders -- they would only have as many children as they could care for realistically

ok maybe that was mean but i am beginning to feel LDS people have some kind of disillusion and superiority complex -- my cousin calls them the bad wicked people to her children when they come to the door -- i used to think that was terrible but now I think she might be right

Rather than rebut, I've set in bold all the claims you've made that are unsubstantiated by this thread. To wit, none of the LDS people here has claimed anything resembling superiority; we generally don't have kids in the double digits; our church has stated specifically that we should only have children as we can support them; none of us has demonstrated any kind of complex.

I'd like to hear an apology, but I'd settle for editing the post or substantiating the claim that you heard these things in this thread.

 

[DeepShadow]

I've received both church aid and federal aid, and I much prefer the church form. That being said, complaining about welfare recipients in church is a quick way to get me on my feet. I support many forms of government aid, and it galls me that so many Republicans think that removal is better than reform.

Of the two, I like the church aid because it was so much more than money--it was love. Food and other groceries, employment classes, counseling, etc. Federal aid was tons of red tape, I met with a different person each month who had to read my sheet to know my name. There was a general assembly-line air to the thing, and I've talked to several other recipients who would characterize the people they met with as looking down on them. Again, it's not my experience, but I've heard it from enough to give it weight.

I don't think this means that the church system is superior to the federal system, or that private aid is better than public, but it may just show what a good welfare system is capable of, if properly staffed and maintained. I often wonder how much better the federal system might have worked if the people there were not so understaffed and overworked.

 

[DeepShadow]

Habitat for Humanity requires people to help build their home and others with community service to even get a house -- thats a government program that is not a free hand out -- how is that any different?

That's not a government program. Habitat for Humanity claims to be, "A nonprofit, ecumenical Christian housing organization building simple, decent, affordable housing in partnership with people in need."

Just because a LDS thing will give people some free food if they volunteer doesnt mean people that get government welfare are getting it for nothing -- thats ridiculous

I got a lot of government aid for nothing. If you know any actual government programs that solicit volunteers from those they help, please list them.

-- any Church no matter the denomination would help a member of their congregation of tragedy struck -- this is not something that LDS people invented

Nobody said it was. One has to wonder what you think you are rebutting.

-- volunteering so you dont have to swallow your pride and walk into a welfare office is just a cover up for the real truth maybe it will make you feel better as a person but it still means you cant take care of your own any better than a welfare recipient.

Where do you get off saying I and others are covering something up? I've spoken to hundreds of welfare recipients, and many of them volunteer just for the feeling of being needed. That's not a cover up, and it's not something that is being provided by any government agency that I know of. If you know differently, please speak up.

 

[DeepShadow]

Since others haven't been too clear, let me state some things plainly. All of the following is according to my experience with both the LDS welfare system and the government version.

--the LDS church welfare program gives people food, counseling, rent, etc. If that's a handout, so be it; we need more of them.

--the LDS church welfare system invites anyone who is being helped to come and volunteer in their facilities.

--the previous two points are, in my experience, unrelated. I have refused opportunities to volunteer while I was receiving church aid. No one asked why I was refusing (I had job interviews) and no one even suggested that my aid might be cut off (it wasn't). Our bishop at the time reminded me that, as I was receiving aid, I should take the opportunity to volunteer whenever I could. I said I would, and nothing more was said about it. I refused some invitations, I took others. There was no quid pro quo.

--I've talked to many, many welfare recipients. Many jump at the chance to volunteer at the church facilities, including quite a few non-LDS who are not receiving church aid, only government.

Any questions about the above?

 

[nutshell]

this thread is so an example of people even in dire circumstances thinking they are better than other people because of the god they believe in -- people helping people is what we all should be doing -- but assuming that mormons are superior because they do some work for free handouts is really getting on my nerves -- those are the people I think of who have like 17 kids -- when your family is that large how can you feed all those mouths without help? you can't -- real men wouldnt make their women into breeders -- they would only have as many children as they could care for realistically

ok maybe that was mean but i am beginning to feel LDS people have some kind of disillusion and superiority complex -- my cousin calls them the bad wicked people to her children when they come to the door -- i used to think that was terrible but now I think she might be right

This post shows how ignorant you are about the whole thing and reveals your true feelings for the LDS Church. Your claims are completely unsupported.

 

[nutshell]

I believe this post was created not to show any sort of superiority, but to share an idea that has proven to work very well.

Is the sharing of good ideas so bad? I thought that's how we make each other better.

 

[Reverend Rick]

The more I learn about the LDS church, the more I admire them.

 

[jonny]

I believe this post was created not to show any sort of superiority, but to share an idea that has proven to work very well.

Is the sharing of good ideas so bad? I thought that's how we make each other better.

Not only that - I'm really curious about why so many LDS church members are so opposed to government welfare, especially when they are willing to donate lots of time and money to support other welfare programs.

I knew that helping the poor was a controversial issue, but I didn't that Mormons were "terrible" and "wicked" for doing so. I guess I learn something new every day.

 

[jonny]

this thread is so an example of people even in dire circumstances thinking they are better than other people because of the god they believe in -- people helping people is what we all should be doing -- but assuming that mormons are superior because they do some work for free handouts is really getting on my nerves -- those are the people I think of who have like 17 kids -- when your family is that large how can you feed all those mouths without help? you can't -- real men wouldnt make their women into breeders -- they would only have as many children as they could care for realistically

ok maybe that was mean but i am beginning to feel LDS people have some kind of disillusion and superiority complex -- my cousin calls them the bad wicked people to her children when they come to the door -- i used to think that was terrible but now I think she might be right

How many Mormons have you met with 17 kids? I've met literally thousands of LDS Church members during the 28 years that I've been a Mormon (and alive), and I've only met a handful with more than ten kids. I'd say that four to six children is average for most Mormon homes today.

 

[nutshell]

Not only that - I'm really curious about why so many LDS church members are so opposed to government welfare, especially when they are willing to donate lots of time and money to support other welfare programs.

I knew that helping the poor was a controversial issue, but I didn't that Mormons were "terrible" and "wicked" for doing so. I guess I learn something new every day.

Well, for the record, I'm not opposed to government welfare.

Before school, I spoke with another married Mormon person who had just graduated from the school I was entering. I was asking him about financial aid and whether it was enough to support a family. I asked if he ever had needed gov't. assistance during his time at the school. His whole demeanor changed as if I had offended him. He vehemently said No - that he would NEVER do get gov't. assistance. I thanked him for the info. and moved on.

(I wonder if he ever considered his subsidized loans as gov't. asssistance??? )

 

[nutshell]

The more I learn about the LDS church, the more I admire them.

I appreciate that, Reverend.

 

[jonny]

Well, for the record, I'm not opposed to government welfare.

I'm not opposed to it either. I don't support the way it is implemented completely, but I believe that there should be assistance for those who are poor and needy. In many ways, the government is the most efficient way to get it accomplished for society as a whole.

 

[DeepShadow]

In case you couldn't tell, I'm not opposed either.

 

[Bishka]

In case you couldn't tell, I'm not opposed either.

I'm not either (though it sounded like it), I just think the governments needs to be reformed a bit.

 

[Mathematician]

I don't know of too many people who believe slobs should be rewarded for their existance with a steady flow of money. The welfare systen employed by the LDS church is something I'd aspire for, at least under capitalism. Indeed the reforms under Clinton moved much closer to having something like that in place. But getting rid of government welfare should only be done either when 1.) the churches/private sector can promise to cover every poor, elderly, and sick person or 2.) the revolution arrives and eradicates the need for welfare.

 

[SoyLeche]

I've posted this elsewhere, and probably shouldn't even be reopening this thread, but, whatever.

There are a couple of reasons I'm not a fan of government welfare. Here is one:

I don't know if this really fits in this thread or not, but maybe it will help. This is from "Freakonomics" - but I don't have the book with me, so I'm paraphrasing (my numbers are almost certainly wrong, but the idea is what was given in the book).

In essence, there are 3 types of incentives: Economic, Social and Moral. Any of these, or a combination of them, can be in effect for different people in different situations. One type can also be replaced by another, sometimes with unexpected outcomes.

As an example - there was a study done at daycare centers in Israel. They had a problem with parents coming to pick up their kids late. In order to fix this, they started charging $3.00 per child if the parent was more than 10 minutes late.

So, what happened? A lot more parents started picking up their kids late. $3.00 was cheap daycare. Not only that, but before they were working with a moral or social incentive to pick up their kids on time. This was now replaced with an economic one. They didn't have to feel bad about coming late anymore, they were paying for it.

When they took the extra charge away, any guesses on what happened? The parents kept on coming late. It tends to be dificult to get a moral incentive back once it's been taken away.

Another example cited in the book was blood donation. When it has been attempted to give people money for donating, people stop donating. They don't want to feel like they are selling their blood, but they are more likely to give it away.

I think what I am trying to say here (I haven't really thought it through) is that by giving the care of the poor over to the government may well have some very negative results - it may just cause your average person to care less about helping his fellowman.

I think there is a HUGE difference between government run welfare and privately run charity. That is the difference between donating money to help those in need and having your money taken from you by force to help those in need. One breeds compassion, the other resentment. I think they both have a place, but that society as a whole would be better off if most of it was accomplished through private means.

I really like the idea of Microcredit and programs such as the Perpetual Education Fund.