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Why might religious teaching of the young be classed as abuse?

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
Well religious schools are annoying I agree. Get all the funding too, the jerks.
I don't know man. A parent has every right to teach their child whatever they want. You start inching into that territory from a religious angle and you're no better than a theocracy really.
Also why is always so black and white?
Religion does not necessarily mean rigid dogma. It's not fundementalist necessarily. For my family it is literally eastern philosophy.

Well I have conceded (I hope) that it is all rather a grey area and that there is a considerable spectrum of learning, teaching, and indoctrination to look at so as the question might apply to some and certainly not to others. But the question still remains as to whether even some or much of religious teaching to the young does amount to child abuse.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
Teaching religion to the young is not equivalent to forcing the young to embrace a religion. You're moving the goal post with all the finesse of a childish temper tantrum.

Not really. It's more to see how many seem to think they have the right to impose their personal religious beliefs on to their child, as opposed to letting their child grow up independently and largely finding their own way. I assume you see children more as possessions.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
What makes you think I haven't?

But what is the difference between seeing the world from a 'non-religious' viewpoint (that is, no religious belief should be allowed or taught) and seeing the world from a specifically religious viewpoint (that is, only one religious belief should be allowed or taught)?

Because I don't see one.

They are precisely the same attitude.

MY point of view is that parents should be allowed to decide how their babies and young children are educated and what religion will be taught to them...or whether no religion at all should be taught to them.

I don't have the right to decide for any parent how they should teach something as vital to their well being as their view on religion, pro, con or what brand.

Not. My. Job.

And not yours.

Like many - you appear to see children more as possessions than as individuals with rights.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
I don't have a religious belief, but if some of my family wanted to take my kid to a holiday mass or a bar mitzvah or a shrine or whatever, I wouldn't care. Because I'll have taught them that going doesn't mean they have to believe, and that learning multiple perspectives is great.

Fair enough - perhaps the more religious might think differently?
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
Well I have conceded (I hope) that it is all rather a grey area and that there is a considerable spectrum of learning, teaching, and indoctrination to look at so as the question might apply to some and certainly not to others. But the question still remains as to whether even some or much of religious teaching to the young does amount to child abuse.
Well I suppose if you're talking about the things that happen in like "kidnapped for Christ" or "Jesus camp" or the "Pearls of wisdom" from that stupid child rearing book about how to beat infants (blech) and things like arranged marriage (underage or even of age, but mostly the under aged part) then I could see that as clear child abuse. Indoctrination.... Maybe, if one can prove the child is hurt. Maybe by a case by case basis as even that varies in intensity.
I'm just wary of any calls to blanket ban something. Religion art or even books. Way too many imagined dystopian stories (false and real life) start out with such calls.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
Well I suppose if you're talking about the things that happen in like "kidnapped for Christ" or "Jesus camp" or the "Pearls of wisdom" from that stupid child rearing book about how to beat infants (blech) and things like arranged marriage (underage or even of age, but mostly the under aged part) then I could see that as clear child abuse. Indoctrination.... Maybe, if one can prove the child is hurt. Maybe by a case by case basis as even that varies in intensity.
I'm just wary of any calls to blanket ban something. Religion art or even books. Way too many imagined dystopian stories (false and real life) start out with such calls.

Yep. Not really about banning it though - just more about recognising that it might be more appropriate at an age when children are likely to have more abilities to think about things and to perhaps put such beliefs into perspective. The early age stuff for many, including myself, just reeks of getting children into religion while they are at their most vulnerable - Come unto me as little children, for example.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
I assume you see children more as possessions.
You could not be more wrong, but it's apparent that you feel both free and justified to make very ugly and wholly baseless assumptions about me - yet more evidence of soft bigotry.

(Parenthetically, the young at my synagogue will be leading this Friday's Shabbat services to address the issue of gun control. I'm rather proud of them, much as I'm proud of NFTY in general.)
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
You could not be more wrong, but it's apparent that you feel both free and justified to make very ugly and wholly baseless assumptions about me - yet more evidence of soft bigotry.

(Parenthetically, the young at my synagogue will be leading this Friday's Shabbat services to address the issue of gun control. I'm rather proud of them, much as I'm proud of NFTY in general.)

Oh I think you started down this road ........ get lost! Try to argue rationally or just don't bother.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
Yep. Not really about banning it though - just more about recognising that it might be more appropriate at an age when children are likely to have more abilities to think about things and to perhaps put such beliefs into perspective. The early age stuff for many, including myself, just reeks of getting children into religion while they are at their most vulnerable - Come unto me as little children, for example.
Again depends on how it's taught. We don't simply ask kids to believe. We ask them to figure things out.
Although if reasoning is thought to be an acceptable method of communication with children as young as 5, then why not religion? (Age appropriate.) Teaching religion need not be indoctrination.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
Again depends on how it's taught. We don't simply ask kids to believe. We ask them to figure things out.
Although if reasoning is thought to be an acceptable method of communication with children as young as 5, then why not religion? (Age appropriate.) Teaching religion need not be indoctrination.

Well I have two issues with this, firstly that religious beliefs are just such a fundamental aspect of one's life for many that it is quite important that one gets it right and not to be constantly looking elsewhere for some rival belief - which, as many here seem to testify does happen quite a bit - and also, it just seems to me, as it is an important part of the life for many, that the child discovers their own path to any such belief. As I mentioned in the OP, the adult is basically usurping this from the grasp of the child.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
The main reason why I oppose the religious teaching of young children (and just the young), especially in faith schools, is because, to me at least, it is a denial of their basic human rights - to grow up free from any particular bias or influence that is not proven to be based in reality or that has rather dubious claims to authority. I think few would not see that things like denying a child an adequate education (although poverty often prevents this), child marriage, FGM and perhaps male circumcision, child prostitution, child workers (although mostly done because of the poverty aspect again, so I could exclude this), and paedophilia, were negations of the basic human rights of any child when they are just not in a position usually to combat such situations. I would propose that religious teaching - although this will vary enormously on a spectrum from mild to obvious abuse (as in strict indoctrination) - falls into this same class of abuses, even if done for quite positive reasons. The main difference being that religious teaching exploits the ability of a child to comprehend and/or combat the ideas and concepts put forward, whereas the others usually do this but also abuse various essential freedoms too - usually of bodily integrity or inappropriate behaviour for their age, amongst others. And of course I do know that much religious teaching would hardly be seen as such and mainly being about giving a historical context for such things as moral behaviour for example.

The obvious complaint might be made that it is a parent's right to educate their child as they see fit, and that what is imbued in the child will usually enhance their life - even just by way of the moral values usually attached to any particular religious belief. But this latter can be done without recourse to religion - as my mother did, setting the perfect example without hardly a mention of religion if she actually had any religious belief, which I'm not really sure she ever did have (never really discussed). It is quite possible to introduce religions later in life when any child will have sufficient ability to comprehend any teaching and to assess it appropriately, so why do it when a child is much more vulnerable to such ideas? I think many will know one reason at least. It is usually so because unless they are captured when young it is highly likely that they might not take to any such belief - ever - judging by the current decline in religious beliefs all around the world. It's still a deceptive practice though.

I know many will be outraged that religious teaching could in any way be included in a list alongside paedophilia, child marriage, or child prostitution, but the first is often done (by the more thinking types at least) because of some belief that children are born naturally sexual and/or that the love between a paedophile and a child is just as legitimate as any other love - delusional as this might be. Similarly, child marriage is often done in the belief that the parent is looking towards the future welfare of the child. I actually came across one person insisting it was his right to arrange child marriage for his eight-year-old daughter - with him possibly being a paedophile actually - since he insisted she was his property. Child prostitution often occurs for the same reason - although again, poverty is often a factor - in that any care-giver(?) perhaps sees the child as a resource to be exploited, particularly when the child might make more money than any employment by the adult. All three generally involve a delusional belief as to what is appropriate for a young child.

Apart from where cultural inertia is an issue or where religious enforcement is the norm, it seems that in many countries (usually the more technologically advanced and/or educated) religious beliefs are declining by at least 1% per year, so one can see that if this carries on, religions might just fade out of existence quite naturally anyway.

Do any here feel they have a right to dictate what their child should believe concerning such matters - leaving out any teaching of morality, since I think mostly a consensus view on this tends to prevail anyway? I mean, many will have some doubts about their belief with many having no doubts at all, but do you think you have the right to usurp the choices of your child in such matters when they are essentially not capable of doing so if religions are taught at such a young age?


Maybe you oppose Religious teachings to young children.
Maybe Religious people oppose what Atheists teaches young children.
Therefore it goes both ways.

Don't teach my children according to what Atheists think either.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
Maybe you oppose Religious teachings to young children.
Maybe Religious people oppose what Atheists teaches young children.
Therefore it goes both ways.

Don't teach my children according to what Atheists think either.

I wouldn't know not being an atheist or in having any children. But this hardly excuses the religious doing so.
 

dfnj

Well-Known Member
Do any here feel they have a right to dictate what their child should believe concerning such matters - leaving out any teaching of morality, since I think mostly a consensus view on this tends to prevail anyway? I mean, many will have some doubts about their belief with many having no doubts at all, but do you think you have the right to usurp the choices of your child in such matters when they are essentially not capable of doing so if religions are taught at such a young age?

Of course the parents have the right to screw up their children as much as they are capable of achieving. I once heard a comedian say, "You are not like your parents, YOU ARE YOUR PARENTS!" What a scary thought.

Every child has a metaphorical fall from grace where they stop seeing themselves as part of their parents but a separate being. At that point, many people will hate their parents. The reason is our parents are responsible for ALL our weaknesses. We love them for our strengths and we hate them for our weaknesses. I do not believe there is any right way of being when it comes to human character configurations. What most people do is at some point they mature enough to be able to forgive their parents for their weaknesses and just love their parents for who their parents are as people. Sometimes it's a long path.

I do not really agree with your line of logic. Stupid people having stupid beliefs are necessary for understanding what is NOT stupid. I don't think it matters if stupid parents abuse their children with stupid beliefs. Eventually, children become smarter than their parents.

I don't think religions will ever phase out. Science is great for explaining how the Universe works. Science is great for using language, usually mathematics, to represent nature's behaviors. What science is not good at is explaining why we are here and what it all means. Religions will continue to exist to provide people a reason to participate in their lives having what people considered to be sacred or holy implications. Sure it may be all gibberish self-delusion. But what difference does it make if everything in the Universe is just meaningless patterns of swirling energy floating around. The people might has well have a sense of sacred and divine meaning in their lives.

Besides, why do you care what stupid people believe. It's not like it hurts you in anyway. If you think it does, then maybe you are not so smart as you imagine yourself to be.
 

dfnj

Well-Known Member
Maybe you oppose Religious teachings to young children.
Maybe Religious people oppose what Atheists teaches young children.
Therefore it goes both ways.
Don't teach my children according to what Atheists think either.

Do you even know what atheism is? Atheism is not having a belief in God or gods. You can't actively teach something that doesn't exist.

It seems to me what you are saying is unless you actively teach young children theism then are purposely teaching them atheism. In public schools, I don't think a teacher should say anything at all about religion. But not saying anything at all about religion is NOT a religion. It seems to me the idea that the only way you can NOT teach atheism is by teaching theism is an ill-conceived logically flawed idea.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
Well I have two issues with this, firstly that religious beliefs are just such a fundamental aspect of one's life for many that it is quite important that one gets it right and not to be constantly looking elsewhere for some rival belief - which, as many here seem to testify does happen quite a bit - and also, it just seems to me, as it is an important part of the life for many, that the child discovers their own path to any such belief. As I mentioned in the OP, the adult is basically usurping this from the grasp of the child.
Well people obsess over trivial matters. Religion can inform a person's every decision sure. But so can lots of things, like fandoms for example. I've seen quite a few......questionable decisions born from the love of a movie, TV show or even book. It's all about balance. Anything can be taken to the extreme and the kids usually have to come along for the ride.
With kids, well they have to start somewhere. Are you really saying that starting out a flat atheist is superior than starting out a One Buddhist?
Kids have to be guided somewhere. Whether that is the hallowed halls of intellectual stimulation or the Church library.
I guess I only really take issue if religion is forceful. But that's only really in the more extreme sects of Christianity. Dharmics don't tend to prostelyze, even to their own progeny.
Pagans seem to be harmless one with nature types. (My apologies to any Pagan for such a generalisation. Just a little levity.)
Buddhists seem to be all about meditation and calming non violent methods.
Hindus seem to want an excuse to feed you and to have a festival. And I feel like being Jewish seems to be just as integral as one's race.
Sometimes religion crops up when raising a kid. It's inevitable. It's something people want to pass on. A legacy of sorts.
If open mindedness and independent thought is stressed, then what's the problem?
Isn't wanting kids to have your worldview specifically (even as a starting point) the same as adults teaching their religion to their offspring? Is one really superior to the other? You want them to have your worldview, your experience. But is that really your call to make?
Although I agree about being wary of indoctrination and wanting it to subside.


(And for the record, I'm not suggesting that atheism is a religion or akin to it.)
 
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Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Yeah, isn't it a shame how religions just take over so much of our (not mine) lives. No wonder we have so many conflicts when they are so integrated in some so as to affect virtually all their life. I believe many Muslims feel the same way.

That's.... not at all what I was getting at there. :sweat:

It was an illustration of how anything can be a "religious" teaching. It's definitely not a shame when one lives one's life in accordance with one's religion.
 
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