Why learn about other faiths?

[CG Didymus]

Hi @Dragonslayer
Good to see a much better post from you. That is excellent. RF can be a great place to learn from others and meet some new people. Like any internet discussion group it can take time to get to know people and better understand different perspectives.

It can be hard to know whether the person you are talking to is young or old, what their level of experience and education is, what they are like as people and what they believe.

Some people here may be searching, others to learn, some to teach and even proselytise. I’m here to learn about faiths other than my own. I’m happy being a Baha’i but wanting to learn and hear from those who come from a different background.

I grew up Christian and despite becoming a Baha’i nearly 30 years ago still believe in the same God, Jesus and Bible as I did when I was a Christian. That can be confusing for those who don’t know much about the Baha’i Faith or who have never heard of it before.



I went through a period of 5 years of searching for the truth spurred on by the words of Jesus trusting in Him that if I sought Him He would reveal His truth to me. That led me to the Baha’i Faith. I was a little surprised that Jesus wanted me to become a Baha’i but there you go. God moves in mysterious ways. I have not been disappointed with my decision to become a Baha’i and it’s really helped me in so many ways in life I would not have thought possible beforehand.

However, I'm not here to promote my faith. I'm here to learn from others about their spiritual experiences and religions.



When Jesus said to His disciples He was the way, the truth, the light and no one goes to the father except through Him (John 14:6) He was comforting His disciples having just informed them He would be martyred. His disciples were all Jews and He was reiterating He was the Promised One in the Hebrew Bible. It was also a statement of the importance of turning to His Divine Self. It wasn't a criticism of other religions as Buddhism and Hinduism were largely unknown and Islam woudln't emerge for another 600 years. The Gospel of John refers to other sheep (John 10:16).



I am happy to be your brother in Christ. Some Christians see me in that way and others accuse me of following a false prophet. I keep close contact with my Christians brothers and sisters through volunteer work at a Christian medical centre.

It is much more important that I see the good in others and if others want to focus on my faults, perceived or otherwise, then I forgive them.



In this day many see so much hypocrisy in religions and sincerely belief religion to be a barrier to peace. The best remedy for this spiritual malaise is for our hearts to be attuned to Christ's Teachings and to be a good example of what it means to be a Christian.



I too believe that man requires every word of God (Matthew 4:4). We need to be born again (John 3:3-7).



That is the highest state for a man to achieve I agree.







Then I would hope we are brothers in Christ and you can make the best use of your time here to appreciate the light within every person that posts here.

God Bless

Thanks to you and Dragonslayer for taking it down a notch. As you know, within Christianity itself, several groups believe they are the true Christianity. If all they do is butt heads, it makes it difficult to take any of them seriously.

 

[CG Didymus]

That’s a black and white answer really. A religion that is right for one person may be wrong for another. There may be many right religions. There may be religion that was right for the time God designated. There may be religions that are more suited to the age we live. Who knows, God may have even sent a Messenger for the time we’re living in now.

Why learn about other religions? 'Cause the one you believe in might be wrong? This is meant for those that don't know and aren't interested in knowing what other people in other cultures believe. Too many are taught what to believe and don't investigate for themselves. But, that has changed. However, when you say a religion that is right for one person but wrong for another, that isn't how I see it.

I still think that most of what makes religions work for people is their belief in that religion. Like with Fundamental Christians, they believe that there is a devil out there trying to deceive people, and they see proof of that everywhere.

Baha'is attribute evil and suffering in the world to different things, not Satan. Baha'is don't see the devil trying to deceive people with false religions. They see the oneness in religions and that most of the differences in religions to human misunderstandings of the manifestation's words.

But what are those mysterious "original" words of the manifestation? I'd like to use one modern religious movement as an example, the Mormons. You know most Mormons here are great people. Baha'is have said that there is a tie between them and Joseph Smith, something about Smith being able to see the return himself if he lived to a certain date. But, Baha'is have never said anything about what they believe about the Book of Mormon? Mormons believe it. They believe the Angel Moroni told Smith things that allowed him to find some golden plates and translate those plates. Those plates told of Jesus Christ being on the American continent and told about the people that lived here.

Do Baha'is believe those things in the Book of Mormon? I would doubt it. Does that make those things untrue? Not to Mormons. It is as true as the Bible. So why wouldn't a Baha'i believe it also? Mormons are bearing "good fruit", something that Baha'is like to use to show that they are from God. But how real are those beliefs? They might not be. But, by what Baha'is say about the Bible, Biblical beliefs held by Jews and Christians are also questionable. Yet, those religions have lasted hundreds and even thousands of years... with the wrong beliefs. And still, lots of good people in Christianity and Judaism. People bearing good fruit in spite of their erroneous beliefs.

With the NT and the Jewish Bible, Baha'is can always use the excuse that things have been changed. But you can't do that with the Book of Mormon. It is basically the same age as Baha'i writings. So is it legitimate or something made up by Joseph Smith? If it is made up, why is it working? In fact, it's probably better known worldwide than the Baha'i Faith. So, if it is the truth from God, why don't Baha'is believe it?

So why learn about other religions? Because all people have beliefs. They might be right... They might be wrong. They might be from one God. They might be myth. But, even if it's a myth, it can and does change the hearts of those that believe it.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Why learn about other religions? 'Cause the one you believe in might be wrong? This is meant for those that don't know and aren't interested in knowing what other people in other cultures believe. Too many are taught what to believe and don't investigate for themselves. But, that has changed. However, when you say a religion that is right for one person but wrong for another, that isn't how I see it.

One who is raised a Hindu will have a very different experience of religion than one who is raised Christian. The leap from moving from one of these faiths to another will be too great for many. Most people who grow up with Hinduism don’t become Christians, just as most people who grow up Christians don’t become Hindus.

I still think that most of what makes religions work for people is their belief in that religion. Like with Fundamental Christians, they believe that there is a devil out there trying to deceive people, and they see proof of that everywhere.

Beliefs are important, but practice more so. Practicing being fair and kind to others is much more important that a list of theological beliefs. What good is believing in God a particular way if you are unable to translate that faith into deeds? James 2:14-26. What good is the right faith if it doesn’t manifest as right living? Why have proofs if your faith doesn’t amount to anything? 1 Corinthians 13

Baha'is attribute evil and suffering in the world to different things, not Satan. Baha'is don't see the devil trying to deceive people with false religions. They see the oneness in religions and that most of the differences in religions to human misunderstandings of the manifestation's words.

That is true.

But what are those mysterious "original" words of the manifestation? I'd like to use one modern religious movement as an example, the Mormons. You know most Mormons here are great people. Baha'is have said that there is a tie between them and Joseph Smith, something about Smith being able to see the return himself if he lived to a certain date. But, Baha'is have never said anything about what they believe about the Book of Mormon? Mormons believe it. They believe the Angel Moroni told Smith things that allowed him to find some golden plates and translate those plates. Those plates told of Jesus Christ being on the American continent and told about the people that lived here.

I’ve met good and bad Mormons. Baha’is don’t believe Joseph Smith was a prophet. It doesn’t matter. Some Mormons are great people and live by high moral standards. They believe in Jesus Christ so that’s gotta help.

Do Baha'is believe those things in the Book of Mormon? I would doubt it. Does that make those things untrue? Not to Mormons. It is as true as the Bible. So why wouldn't a Baha'i believe it also? Mormons are bearing "good fruit", something that Baha'is like to use to show that they are from God. But how real are those beliefs? They might not be. But, by what Baha'is say about the Bible, Biblical beliefs held by Jews and Christians are also questionable. Yet, those religions have lasted hundreds and even thousands of years... with the wrong beliefs. And still, lots of good people in Christianity and Judaism. People bearing good fruit in spite of their erroneous beliefs.

That’s true. But there’s also a rise in religious fanaticism, and a decline in religious moderates.

With the NT and the Jewish Bible, Baha'is can always use the excuse that things have been changed. But you can't do that with the Book of Mormon. It is basically the same age as Baha'i writings. So is it legitimate or something made up by Joseph Smith? If it is made up, why is it working? In fact, it's probably better known worldwide than the Baha'i Faith. So, if it is the truth from God, why don't Baha'is believe it?

We believe in the same God, Jesus and Bible. That’s a great starting point.

So why learn about other religions? Because all people have beliefs. They might be right... They might be wrong. They might be from one God. They might be myth. But, even if it's a myth, it can and does change the hearts of those that believe it.

I agree.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Thank you for asking. It was there all the time in my signature.
I have no sampradaya, is that something Hindu perhaps?
Do you yourself have a favourite sampradaya adrian009 since you are developing devotion for Krishna?
My explanation of most of the sayings of Q-lite is also there in the blog-page.
If you have any reflections on or disagreements with the explanations or have anything to add (some sayings I don't understand e.g.) I am interested to hear them.

Ah, it is a Hindu thing:
Sampradaya - Wikipedia
In the Hindu Sampradaya system, the guru is part of a Hindu lineage (parampara), so he needs to have had his own (Hindu) guru.

Thank you. I’m exploring new concepts so as I come to terms with the word Sampradaya look to its traditional meaning within Hinduism and how the concept may be developed into a more universal religious phenomenon (or not).

Abdu’l-Bahá is of course my guru.

‘Abdu’l-Bahá | What Bahá’ís Believe

But can I have a ‘guru’ who has never set foot in India?

Sampradaya can refer to spiritual lineage. Krishna and Buddha as avatars of Vishnu may be one approach.

I already have devotion to Krishna. I’m simply understanding what that means in the context of Hinduism. Maybe that could incorporate a Sampradaya in the more traditional use of the word or not.

 

[Dragonslayer]

I dont like sugar coating things. Below sounds like a movie or a replay of what the protestant and catholic killings back when if someone wasnt christian, theyd get hung. Its sad to see that same mentality in one lump sum on RF.



What benefit would I have if I were forced to serve god?

Would he forcefully change my heart or give me an ultimatum?

Im glad Im not around christians who condem people in fear; but, I do live around christians (a lot) who pray for my salvation as if believing in their god would make me experience love. Not out of genuine love, forceful love.

Eternal life is only believed and promised of believers. To those who know such places and things dont exist, what exactly is the consequence from their point of view?

What good is fear and force when they dont equate to genuine love to the creator not be a slave?



Tell me something. Why do you speak as I you speak for god? Did he tell you these things; and, how does this negativity help benefit your spiritual health (please answer)?

You would remain lost if you dont accept because you believe he exists and you are under his control. Youre ruled by fear not love.



I like this little picture:
View attachment 24415
Makes me laugh everytime I see this.

So all you believers are just trying to tell people they are lost. You know more than the person himself?



Ha. How does that work, Dragon? When something does not exist, how are you saved from it and how are you blinded?



Stuff* like this is why people are indoctrinated and leave christianity. Try another aproach and people may love christ more than you think.



That doesnt help solve how this applies to people who know god does not exist.

They say faith saves. What exactly does one say or feel to where these things automatically come true like magic?

Unless the person really wants that concept of eternal life to feel better, its best to do whats in ones own best interest.

Think of this:

Which is better...to come to god and lie to him saying you loved him when you didnt

or

Is it better to be honest and die for eternity by being honest to god?

How important is honesty in christianity?

I know you better than you know yourself, why? because I kn ow the One who made you. Every single person is born with the cancer of sin, and you are no exception. Satan has blinded you, so you can't believe the truth anymore. You are blind, confused, lost, totally depraved, wicked, evil and sinful.

You have been so blinded and deceived that it's not possible to share the truth with you, because you cannot receive the truth. The truth is foolishness to you, Gods Word calls people like you "Reprobate", you are sealed for eternal torment in hell and only God can save you.

I was like you until God converted me from a Reprobate to a Saint, my conversion had nothing to do with me. Salvation is of the Lord, He initiates the work of salvation by drawing a lost person to Himself and completely transforming the person.

So I'm not here to sell you anything, I have been commanded to share the Gospel of Jesus Christ with every creature. I only go as far as sharing the truth and praying for you and God does the rest. I have no power to change anyone, God is the only One who has that power.

I need to warn everyone that they will be tormented in hell fire for all eternity if they don't repent and put their in Christ to do the work of transformation and sanctification. As soon as you die, you will find yourself standing before God to be judged. If you don't have Christ as your savior and advocate, you will be cast into hell where you will continue to pay for your sins eternally.

Either Christ has paid for your sins on the cross, or you will pay for them in hell. There is no other option, God must punish every single sin. He cannot just wink at sin, His very nature obligates Him to punish every single sin so every person who doesn't have Christ is condemned.

I'm not here to judge anyone, all I can do is warn you and pray for you. I'm telling you about God, because He has revealed the truth to me. His Holy and Inerrant Word as we have in the Holy Scriptures, warns mankind about the coming judgement which nobody will escape.

There is nothing more serious or urgent or important than your eternal destiny, Jesus said "what would it profit a man to gain the whole world, yet lose his soul" There are so many lost souls, heading for eternal torment in hell, so I'm trying to warn as many people as possible to repent and ask Christ to save you from the penalty your sins deserve.

 

[Dragonslayer]

Hi @Dragonslayer
Good to see a much better post from you. That is excellent. RF can be a great place to learn from others and meet some new people. Like any internet discussion group it can take time to get to know people and better understand different perspectives.

It can be hard to know whether the person you are talking to is young or old, what their level of experience and education is, what they are like as people and what they believe.

Some people here may be searching, others to learn, some to teach and even proselytise. I’m here to learn about faiths other than my own. I’m happy being a Baha’i but wanting to learn and hear from those who come from a different background.

I grew up Christian and despite becoming a Baha’i nearly 30 years ago still believe in the same God, Jesus and Bible as I did when I was a Christian. That can be confusing for those who don’t know much about the Baha’i Faith or who have never heard of it before.



I went through a period of 5 years of searching for the truth spurred on by the words of Jesus trusting in Him that if I sought Him He would reveal His truth to me. That led me to the Baha’i Faith. I was a little surprised that Jesus wanted me to become a Baha’i but there you go. God moves in mysterious ways. I have not been disappointed with my decision to become a Baha’i and it’s really helped me in so many ways in life I would not have thought possible beforehand.

However, I'm not here to promote my faith. I'm here to learn from others about their spiritual experiences and religions.



When Jesus said to His disciples He was the way, the truth, the light and no one goes to the father except through Him (John 14:6) He was comforting His disciples having just informed them He would be martyred. His disciples were all Jews and He was reiterating He was the Promised One in the Hebrew Bible. It was also a statement of the importance of turning to His Divine Self. It wasn't a criticism of other religions as Buddhism and Hinduism were largely unknown and Islam woudln't emerge for another 600 years. The Gospel of John refers to other sheep (John 10:16).



I am happy to be your brother in Christ. Some Christians see me in that way and others accuse me of following a false prophet. I keep close contact with my Christians brothers and sisters through volunteer work at a Christian medical centre.

It is much more important that I see the good in others and if others want to focus on my faults, perceived or otherwise, then I forgive them.



In this day many see so much hypocrisy in religions and sincerely belief religion to be a barrier to peace. The best remedy for this spiritual malaise is for our hearts to be attuned to Christ's Teachings and to be a good example of what it means to be a Christian.



I too believe that man requires every word of God (Matthew 4:4). We need to be born again (John 3:3-7).



That is the highest state for a man to achieve I agree.







Then I would hope we are brothers in Christ and you can make the best use of your time here to appreciate the light within every person that posts here.

God Bless

The greatest privilege, gift and reward a person can ever receive is to be added to the body of Christ. All of us who are in Christ have eternal life in paradise, we have been given all the riches of the universe and we own the whole universe and we will be given all power and authority over all things.

There is nothing better than having the assurance that our eternal destiny is in paradise. When you consider that we were enemies of God and we hated Him, but He chose to come into the world and suffer unbelievable pain to pay for our sins and bless us with the greatest gift imaginable.

So the deal is, I was a totally depraved reprobate, adulterer, drug addict, fornicator, thief, liar, violent criminal, angry blasphemer and many other wicked things and God chose to come and suffer and die to save me and shower me with all the riches of the universe in eternal paradise.

I don't believe that you are a fellow Saint, because if you were a true believer you never would have left Jesus for some other false god. You would have remained faithful to Him to the end, He actaually mentioned your kind., He said they went out from us because they were never of us. So you were never a true believer to begin with, because when a person finds the truth they never abandon it.

I hope you ask Jesus to forgive you and accept you back into His Royal Family of Saints, if you don't you will be denying yourself the greatest privilege and you will instead be embracing a horrific eternity in hell fire.

 

[Dragonslayer]

Thanks to you and Dragonslayer for taking it down a notch. As you know, within Christianity itself, several groups believe they are the true Christianity. If all they do is butt heads, it makes it difficult to take any of them seriously.

You don't know what Christianity is, Christians don't butt heads. The reprobate who falsely claim to be Christians do that, true Christians are known for their brotherly unity and love for each other.

Every true believer is my brother or sister, no matter what country or tribe they come form. I would share my last loaf of bread with them, we love each other more than we love our own family members who aren't true believers.

True believer (Christians) are one body, if one of our members is suffering we all suffer. Like if I brake my arm, my whole body feels the pain so if any member of Gods family suffers we all suffer together. So please be aware that the vast majority of those who call themselves Christian are no more Christian than my German Shepherd Dog is.

Christ said, "you will know them by their fruits". True believers are identified by the love we have for each other, false professors are known for their fighting between each other.

A Christian is Christ-like, a true believer will be like Christ is. Christ is nothing like those hypocrites who call themselves Christian, so you can always tell who the true Christians are because they are like Christ.

Don't get the wrong idea that Christ is that soft blonde effeminate Jesus that the Roman Catholics portray in the pictures. Christ is coming back as a Man of war, He is coming back to cast billions into hell to be tormented. They will beg for mercy but Christ will show no mercy at all, He will wage a war like no other warrior in history. People will then find out that Jesus is not that softy that Satan and His Demons portrayed to the world.

Jesus didn't come into the world to bring peace, He came to divide the world into two groups, those who are going to heaven and those who are going to hell with Satan and His Demons.

Christ could return at any moment, then it will be too late to repent so it's crucial that you do it right away and stop gambling with your eternal security.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I know you better than you know yourself, why? because I kn ow the One who made you. Every single person is born with the cancer of sin, and you are no exception. Satan has blinded you, so you can't believe the truth anymore. You are blind, confused, lost, totally depraved, wicked, evil and sinful.

You have been so blinded and deceived that it's not possible to share the truth with you, because you cannot receive the truth. The truth is foolishness to you, Gods Word calls people like you "Reprobate", you are sealed for eternal torment in hell and only God can save you.

I was like you until God converted me from a Reprobate to a Saint, my conversion had nothing to do with me. Salvation is of the Lord, He initiates the work of salvation by drawing a lost person to Himself and completely transforming the person.

So I'm not here to sell you anything, I have been commanded to share the Gospel of Jesus Christ with every creature. I only go as far as sharing the truth and praying for you and God does the rest. I have no power to change anyone, God is the only One who has that power.

I need to warn everyone that they will be tormented in hell fire for all eternity if they don't repent and put their in Christ to do the work of transformation and sanctification. As soon as you die, you will find yourself standing before God to be judged. If you don't have Christ as your savior and advocate, you will be cast into hell where you will continue to pay for your sins eternally.

Either Christ has paid for your sins on the cross, or you will pay for them in hell. There is no other option, God must punish every single sin. He cannot just wink at sin, His very nature obligates Him to punish every single sin so every person who doesn't have Christ is condemned.

I'm not here to judge anyone, all I can do is warn you and pray for you. I'm telling you about God, because He has revealed the truth to me. His Holy and Inerrant Word as we have in the Holy Scriptures, warns mankind about the coming judgement which nobody will escape.

There is nothing more serious or urgent or important than your eternal destiny, Jesus said "what would it profit a man to gain the whole world, yet lose his soul" There are so many lost souls, heading for eternal torment in hell, so I'm trying to warn as many people as possible to repent and ask Christ to save you from the penalty your sins deserve.

I hope you don't have children. I know for myself I don't have no belief in god.

Actually, what is a deity???

I can't take you seriously with the negative overtone. Discribe what a god is?

Jesus means nothing without knowing his fathers nature; what is he. Not who. What?

 

[CG Didymus]

You don't know what Christianity is, Christians don't butt heads. The reprobate who falsely claim to be Christians do that, true Christians are known for their brotherly unity and love for each other.

Every true believer is my brother or sister, no matter what country or tribe they come form. I would share my last loaf of bread with them, we love each other more than we love our own family members who aren't true believers.

True believer (Christians) are one body, if one of our members is suffering we all suffer. Like if I brake my arm, my whole body feels the pain so if any member of Gods family suffers we all suffer together. So please be aware that the vast majority of those who call themselves Christian are no more Christian than my German Shepherd Dog is.

Christ said, "you will know them by their fruits". True believers are identified by the love we have for each other, false professors are known for their fighting between each other.

A Christian is Christ-like, a true believer will be like Christ is. Christ is nothing like those hypocrites who call themselves Christian, so you can always tell who the true Christians are because they are like Christ.

Don't get the wrong idea that Christ is that soft blonde effeminate Jesus that the Roman Catholics portray in the pictures. Christ is coming back as a Man of war, He is coming back to cast billions into hell to be tormented. They will beg for mercy but Christ will show no mercy at all, He will wage a war like no other warrior in history. People will then find out that Jesus is not that softy that Satan and His Demons portrayed to the world.

Jesus didn't come into the world to bring peace, He came to divide the world into two groups, those who are going to heaven and those who are going to hell with Satan and His Demons.

Christ could return at any moment, then it will be too late to repent so it's crucial that you do it right away and stop gambling with your eternal security.

I've been around several different Christian groups and what do they say? Why we are right and the other groups are wrong... and that they'll pray for those others that they will see the truth someday. And...they butt heads with each other over doctrinal differences. Are you from a Charismatic or Pentecostal Church? Then what do you tell Christians that don't believe the "gifts" are for today? Or, are you on the other side of that argument? Do you argue "Sola Scriptura" with Catholics? Or, do you just tell them they are going to hell? Either way, I'm sure what you do with them could be called "butting heads".

You say: "You don't know what Christianity is, Christians don't butt heads"? and to Unveiled Artist: "I know you better than you know yourself"? We all know you too. That's why we are looking into other religions, because if your form of Christianity is the truth, then maybe we don't believe in your version of God and Jesus. Who would be so cruel as to make a flawed Creation and then blame them for screwing up?

Yeah, yeah, I know that you can say that God made it perfect but then Adam and Eve messed it all up. But, did God know what would happen? Yes. And did he create it that way anyway? Yes. Did he know Satan would rebel? Yes. Did God know by casting Satan to Earth that he would successfully tempt Adam and Eve into sinning? Yes.

But did any of that really happen? Is it just Jewish religious mythology? They don't even believe it like you believe it. Satan is not even a major figure in the Jewish Bible. So your "literal" beliefs about your "Old Testament" are different than a Jew's literal belief in those same Scriptures. Why are you right and they're wrong? Because of the NT? And you probably say you believe the NT literally also. But I doubt it.

In Matthew, Jesus, yes Jesus himself says, that if your eye or your hand offends you... do what? Cut it off. Let's just worry about your eyes for now, 'cause if you're like most men, your eyes have looked at things that God didn't want you to look at. So, do you take Jesus' words literally and gouge out your eye? No, because you think about it. You ponder it and come to the conclusion that maybe he's being figurative. Exactly.

That's all Baha'is are saying. Some things that you believe are literal, maybe, just maybe, only figurative. Is that so hard or too wrong for you to do? To think that maybe how you were taught to interpret the Bible might be too extreme and too literal?

And, unless you're a 7th Day Adventist, another thing you don't take literal is the Commandment about keeping the Sabbath. Where I think it says to keep those Commandments for all their generations; it might even say forever. And Moses says that they aren't too hard to follow, but Paul says they are impossible to follow. But regardless, if God wanted the Commandments to be obeyed, most Christians don't take that literal and find a verse or two to get out of keeping the Sabbath Commandment. So, in all honesty, most Christians can't even say they follow the Ten Commandments.

So sure, tell us what you believe and why you believe. But a lot of us are doing the same with many of the other religious groups too... and not blindly following any one of them, especially the more extreme groups. Which, actually, for me, includes Fundamental Christians and the Baha'i Faith, because, in their more gentle way, are saying that they are the "only way" too.

 

[Trailblazer]

So I'm not here to sell you anything, I have been commanded to share the Gospel of Jesus Christ with every creature.

You are not sharing the Gospel according to Jesus Christ, you are sharing the Gospel according to Paul, the Gospel according to the Church. That is a completely different Gospel than the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[Katzpur]

So sure, tell us what you believe and why you believe. But a lot of us are doing the same with many of the other religious groups too... and not blindly following any one of them, especially the more extreme groups. Which, actually, for me, includes Fundamental Christians and the Baha'i Faith, because, in their more gentle way, are saying that they are the "only way" too.

So I'm curious as to what exactly you mean when you say "the only way"? Do you mean "the only way that is fully accurate in terms of its teachings?" Do you mean "the only way that God has sanctioned as being 'His way'?" Do you mean "the only way you can avoid eternal punishment or annihilation?" To me, "the only way" can be understood differently depending on its usage. Also, do you believe it's possible for a religion to see itself as the "only way" in some regard, but to still value "other ways" as having some legitimacy and value?" If so, what would their legitimacy and value be?

 

[Marcion]

I already have devotion to Krishna. I’m simply understanding what that means in the context of Hinduism. Maybe that could incorporate a Sampradaya in the more traditional use of the word or not.

I know too little about Hinduism and the concept of 'Sampradaya'. But if the guru did not have his own guru, I don't think he can be said to be part of any sampradaya system.
Anandamurti came with the concept of Tarakabrahma and explained that there were only three of them, just like there were only three Mahakaula's. A Mahakaula must have given demonstrations to His followers of His power to do what only a Mahakaula can do and nobody else can.

Nor can Hinduism be considered as one single religion, I don't think within Hinduism the sampradaya system is universally used.
The parallel with Christianity could be the succession of bishops and popes who likewise claim their authority from a long line of successions starting with the perceived authority of the early witnesses of the life of so-called Christ.
The difference is perhaps that the claims of bishops and popes are more religious or superstitious in nature compared with the more real qualities of the sampradaya guru's.

So are the Bahai teachers more like the Christian teachers or more like the Indian guru's?
I know too little about the religion to be able to say.

 

[Vinayaka]

I know too little about Hinduism and the concept of 'Sampradaya'. But if the guru did not have his own guru, I don't think he can be said to be part of any sampradaya system.

Sampradaya is a relatively vague term these days, often used as a synonym to subsect. So it's not much to be that concerned about. I believe Adrian started using it because I use it a lot, just to distinguish my personal variety of Hinduism versus the many others. But yes traditionally it was attached to a continuing lineage. Probably the most common and influential one for philosophy anyway, these days is the Smarta sampradaya, reformed and 'modernised' by Adi Shankara.

Sampradayas have to start somewhere, so a Guru may be the first in a line. BAPS is relatively new, for example. But that's assuming a successor is appointed. In teaching traditions or lineages, it's essential to appoint a successor. From observation alone, one can see that a lineage often dies out once the practice is. For starters there can be a big fight upon the death over weho's in charge. Appointing a successor, and making it very public eliminates that, or at least reduces the possibilities.

This is pretty accurate, in my view.

Sampradaya - Wikipedia

 

[CG Didymus]

So I'm curious as to what exactly you mean when you say "the only way"? Do you mean "the only way that is fully accurate in terms of its teachings?" Do you mean "the only way that God has sanctioned as being 'His way'?" Do you mean "the only way you can avoid eternal punishment or annihilation?" To me, "the only way" can be understood differently depending on its usage. Also, do you believe it's possible for a religion to see itself as the "only way" in some regard, but to still value "other ways" as having some legitimacy and value?" If so, what would their legitimacy and value be?

By saying the Baha'i Faith says they are the only way but in a "gentle" way is... They believe all the other major religions and their founding "manifestation" were from the one and only God. Therefore, the message that prophet brought was The Truth, for that time. However, in every case, except in the Baha'i Faith, they say that people got things wrong. Whether it was by adding things in or misinterpreting things, a typical thing would be to take something too literal as is the case when Baha'is say Jesus rose symbolically from the dead, not literally, that somehow things in the religious teachings of the founder got off.

Baha'is say that when Jesus said he was the "only" way that it was meant only for that time... that the prophets that came after him were also the "only" way, but again, for that time. And only until their message got changed.

Baha'i don't have the eternal punishment beliefs of Christianity. So, for them there is no "only" way of getting saved from hell by believing in Jesus. Which is nice. Some Christians think that all people that don't truly believe and have given their lives to Jesus in the way they interpret the Bible, will go to hell. And that includes nominal Christians and Christian denominations that don't believe exactly how the Fundamentalist say one should believe. I'm sure you get that all the time and have to defend your belief in Jesus.

I'm wondering, since both the Baha'i Faith and the Mormon Church started fairly recently, the writings should not have been changed or misinterpreted beyond the point of not knowing the original teachings of their prophets. So we know what the two religious groups teach and they have contradictory beliefs. You and some Baha'is have shown mutual respect for each other, but I don't know, at the deeper level, how you really feel about each other? You both have spread worldwide. People are believing your message as true and the Baha'i message as true. I don't know what the Mormon Church teaches, but I know Baha'i believe they are the "only" correct one for this time. But, they are not the only new religion of this time.

So, it is easy for them to say the older religious groups have lost their original teachings, but not these new ones. And, they all do have something different to say about God and truth. And for any of them that do believe they are they "only" true way for now, what do they do and say about the others? You're always so civil, so I can understand that to put down these other religious movements isn't something that you do. And, it's the same with most of the Baha'is here. They would be reluctant to get into a debate over theological beliefs with you. But, that is something that I have questions about... all new religious groups can't be the "only" way and have the "only" truth from God for today.

 

[Marcion]

So, it is easy for them to say the older religious groups have lost their original teachings, but not these new ones. And, they all do have something different to say about God and truth. And for any of them that do believe they are they "only" true way for now, what do they do and say about the others? You're always so civil, so I can understand that to put down these other religious movements isn't something that you do. And, it's the same with most of the Baha'is here. They would be reluctant to get into a debate over theological beliefs with you. But, that is something that I have questions about... all new religious groups can't be the "only" way and have the "only" truth from God for today.

The ultimate question is which of the preceptors has/had the "true" cosmic vision to make a correct analysis of the status of other more important teachers or gurus? Or is none correct and is everything just made up anyway just to motivate the "believers" or followers? An atheist will say the latter. So are some preceptors less cosmic in their vision and therefore more fallible in this regard? These things will have to be avoided in this discussion because they will be hurtful to people with other preceptors.

Of course many preceptors will never make such claims of having broad visions of the history of spiritual or religious successions.

Sampradaya is a relatively vague term these days, often used as a synonym to subsect. So it's not much to be that concerned about. I believe Adrian started using it because I sue it a lot, just to distinguish my personal variety of Hinduism versus the many others. But yes traditionally it was attached to a continuing lineage. Probably the most common and influential one for philosophy anyway, these days is the Smarta sampradaya, reformed and 'modernised' by Adi Shankara.

Sampradayas have to start somewhere, so a Guru may be the first in a line. BAPS is relatively new, for example. But that's assuming a successor is appointed. In teaching traditions or lineages, it's essential to appoint a successor. From observation alone, one can see that a lineage often dies out once the practice is. For starters there can be a big fight upon the death over weho's in charge. Appointing a successor, and making it very public eliminates that, or at least reduces the possibilities.

This is pretty accurate, in my view.

Sampradaya - Wikipedia

I suppose from the Hindu viewpoint one could see the acharyas who succeeded the founder of AMPS as leaders of a "sampradaya" started by Guru Shrii Shrii Anandamurti. Except that AMPS is too much syncretic to call it that, it just doesn't fit into that mold. Do leaders of certain Indian sampradayas hold collective inter-sampradaya meetings sometimes?

 

[Katzpur]

By saying the Baha'i Faith says they are the only way but in a "gentle" way is... They believe all the other major religions and their founding "manifestation" were from the one and only God. Therefore, the message that prophet brought was The Truth, for that time. However, in every case, except in the Baha'i Faith, they say that people got things wrong. Whether it was by adding things in or misinterpreting things, a typical thing would be to take something too literal as is the case when Baha'is say Jesus rose symbolically from the dead, not literally, that somehow things in the religious teachings of the founder got off.

Well, I've got to disagree with them on that matter. Mormons definitely believe that Jesus' resurrection was a literal one and that our eventual resurrection will be a literal one as well.

Baha'is say that when Jesus said he was the "only" way that it was meant only for that time... that the prophets that came after him were also the "only" way, but again, for that time. And only until their message got changed.

Okay, well I get the concept of their theology, and can see a parallel between theirs and ours, although I'm not going to go into any detail at this time.

Baha'i don't have the eternal punishment beliefs of Christianity. So, for them there is no "only" way of getting saved from hell by believing in Jesus. Which is nice. Some Christians think that all people that don't truly believe and have given their lives to Jesus in the way they interpret the Bible, will go to hell. And that includes nominal Christians and Christian denominations that don't believe exactly how the Fundamentalist say one should believe. I'm sure you get that all the time and have to defend your belief in Jesus.

Yeah, we absolutely do. I don't actually know what the Baha'i beliefs concerning the afterlife are, but I'd have to say that Mormonism is essentially universalist in its thinking. We don't believe in some kind of eternal Lake of Fire where unbelievers will suffer for their unbelief forever. We actually believe that the vast majority of humanity will find its way to Heaven in the end.

I'm wondering, since both the Baha'i Faith and the Mormon Church started fairly recently, the writings should not have been changed or misinterpreted beyond the point of not knowing the original teachings of their prophets. So we know what the two religious groups teach and they have contradictory beliefs. You and some Baha'is have shown mutual respect for each other, but I don't know, at the deeper level, how you really feel about each other? You both have spread worldwide. People are believing your message as true and the Baha'i message as true. I don't know what the Mormon Church teaches, but I know Baha'i believe they are the "only" correct one for this time. But, they are not the only new religion of this time.

Well, I do try to be respectful of any religion whose members are sincere in their beliefs and tolerant of mine. I find this to be true, for the most part of Baha'is. I honestly have no use for people whose attitude is "my way or the highway."

So, it is easy for them to say the older religious groups have lost their original teachings, but not these new ones. And, they all do have something different to say about God and truth. And for any of them that do believe they are they "only" true way for now, what do they do and say about the others? You're always so civil, so I can understand that to put down these other religious movements isn't something that you do. And, it's the same with most of the Baha'is here. They would be reluctant to get into a debate over theological beliefs with you. But, that is something that I have questions about... all new religious groups can't be the "only" way and have the "only" truth from God for today.

I suppose I'd have to say that, as I see it, no two religions which are teaching contradictory doctrines can both be right. Mathematically, that's simply not possible. So, looking within the fractured mess of today's Christianity, and not even considering any non-Christian religions, you've got enormous differences of opinion on pretty much every conceivable point of doctrine. For instance, on the subject of baptism, some denominations see it as essential, while others see it as optional. Some believe infants should be baptized; to others, that idea is actually offensive. Some say anyone can perform a baptism; others say only a person holding a certain authority may. Some believe baptism must be performed by immersion; others say sprinkling is fine. So who's right and who's wrong? And that's only on one single point of doctrine. All beliefs concerning this point of doctrine can't possibly be right.

So that's basically where Mormonism stands with respect to "truth." And as I said earlier, I don't really know anything much about the Baha'i Faith's teachings concerning the afterlife. I do know, however, that within Christianity, there are huge numbers of people (probably the vast majority) who hold orthodoxy in higher regard than orthopraxy. Mormonism, as I understand it, and definitely in how I practice it, focuses more on behavior and actions than on beliefs. We don't think that an error in scriptural interpretation is going to keep someone out of Heaven. Plus, unlike every religion I can think of (at least among those that believe in an afterlife), we don't see death as being "the end." As one LDS leader has stated, "The more we learn about the gospel of Jesus Christ, the more we realize that endings here in mortality are not endings at all. They are merely interruptions—temporary pauses that one day will seem small compared to the eternal joy awaiting the faithful." And he wasn't just talking about the "Mormon faithful."

 

[Dawnofhope]

The greatest privilege, gift and reward a person can ever receive is to be added to the body of Christ. All of us who are in Christ have eternal life in paradise, we have been given all the riches of the universe and we own the whole universe and we will be given all power and authority over all things.

It is a great privilege to recognise Christ for certain. Your ideas about who is and isn’t a Christian and where the church begins and ends will change over time I hope. How long have you been a Christian?

I don’t believe for a second God has ever given you or anyone else the power and authority over the whole universe. Is that what you’ve been taught in your church? It sounds like something you would get out of too much gaming, certainly not out of the bible.

There is nothing better than having the assurance that our eternal destiny is in paradise. When you consider that we were enemies of God and we hated Him, but He chose to come into the world and suffer unbelievable pain to pay for our sins and bless us with the greatest gift imaginable.

The problem with that approach is misunderstanding the sacrifice Jesus made and why. It leads to false complacency that you need make no further effort to work on being a better person tobe come genuinely Christ-like.

So the deal is, I was a totally depraved reprobate, adulterer, drug addict, fornicator, thief, liar, violent criminal, angry blasphemer and many other wicked things and God chose to come and suffer and die to save me and shower me with all the riches of the universe in eternal paradise.

I had many faults before becoming a Christian, I had many faults when I was a Christian and have many faults now. I’ve never been a criminal nor someone whose consciencely wanted to hurt others so if you faith has made you a better person I’m all for it. I’ve seen too many religious hypocrites who don’t walk the talk.

I don't believe that you are a fellow Saint, because if you were a true believer you never would have left Jesus for some other false god. You would have remained faithful to Him to the end, He actaually mentioned your kind., He said they went out from us because they were never of us. So you were never a true believer to begin with, because when a person finds the truth they never abandon it.

I wasn’t expecting your acknowledgment but now you mention it, Jesus did speak of His Return and to turn to Him when that happened. For me Bahá’u’lláh is the Return of Christ. Your salvation may not be as assured as you think, especially if it leads to a belief you will rule over the universe.

I hope you ask Jesus to forgive you and accept you back into His Royal Family of Saints, if you don't you will be denying yourself the greatest privilege and you will instead be embracing a horrific eternity in hell fire.

You may wish to reassess how you stand in relation to your own words. It sounds like you've come from hell but your walk with Christ doesn't sound like any Christ I know and love from the bible.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I know too little about Hinduism and the concept of 'Sampradaya'. But if the guru did not have his own guru, I don't think he can be said to be part of any sampradaya system.

Abdu'l-Baha's guru was his father Baha'u'llah.

In regards a spiritual lineage within the Baha'i Faith, we have the Bab, Baha'u'llah, and Abdu'l-Baha who we consider the Central figures whose writings make up our sacred scripture.

In regards being the leader of our faith community that was passed onto Shoghi Effendi (the eldest grandson of Abdu'l-Baha) and then the Universal House of Justice, an elected body. Each successive change in leadership within the Baha'i Faith has been through the clear written instructions of Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha.

Anandamurti came with the concept of Tarakabrahma and explained that there were only three of them, just like there were only three Mahakaula's. A Mahakaula must have given demonstrations to His followers of His power to do what only a Mahakaula can do and nobody else can.

It is hard for me to be clear about these concepts Tarakabrahma or Mahakaula. Would you elaborate or provide links with clear explanations?

Nor can Hinduism be considered as one single religion, I don't think within Hinduism the sampradaya system is universally used.
The parallel with Christianity could be the succession of bishops and popes who likewise claim their authority from a long line of successions starting with the perceived authority of the early witnesses of the life of so-called Christ.

I quite agree that Hinduism is not a single religion with any clear founder.

The term sampradaya is clearly a Hindu title but a better example with Christianity might be the Jesuit traditions in Catholicism. The Jesuits have remained part of the Catholic Church.

Society of Jesus - Wikipedia

The Baha'i Faith in its early days appeared to be a sect within Islam but its independence from Islam became clear in 1848 at the conference of Badasdt.

Conference of Badasht - Wikipedia

The difference is perhaps that the claims of bishops and popes are more religious or superstitious in nature compared with the more real qualities of the sampradaya guru's.

The early bishops or popes starting from Peter would have been profoundly spiritual. This changed somewhat after the Christian church grasped real power within the Roman Empire.

So are the Bahai teachers more like the Christian teachers or more like the Indian guru's?
I know too little about the religion to be able to say.

Neither.

 

[Marcion]

It is hard for me to be clear about these concepts Tarakabrahma or Mahakaula. Would you elaborate or provide links with clear explanations?

Thank you for your answers and clarifications Adrian.

I will try to explain to my best understanding and will try to find links or will reproduce texts later.

Taraka Brahma is explained by Anandamurti as a mysterious figure who arrives at a time in history when humanity is in crisis as a result of the increased dominance of a-dharmic forces in society.
Taraka Brahma appears in order to re-establish Dharma on earth by His example and ideology (the two cannot be separated, so He is/They are one with their ideology).

In Indian spiritual philosophy there is Nirguna Brahma, which is God beyond His creation and there is Saguna Brahma, the part of God as creator and maintainer of His universe.
Taraka Brahma takes a human body, so He must be somehow associated with Saguna Brahma but He is also associated with Nirguna Brahma and He forms a bridge between the two (He comes from the tangent plane between the Two) . So all jiivas who want Nirvikalpa Samadhi (final liberation by merging in Nirguna Brahma) will have to go through Taraka Brahma.

According to Shrii Shrii Anandamurti Taraka Brahma appeared only three times on this one planet and the time spans were approximately 3500 years between the different appearances.

Someone who becomes established in mystic spirituality will be able to raise his/her kulakundalini from the base of the spine through all the chakras (layers of the mind) upto the Sahasrara Chakra (the seat of God). That person, who can raise the kulakundalini at will, has become a so-called Kaula.

Taraka Brahma has many special qualities that distinguish Him from ordinary people but one quality is that He is a Mahakaula (Great Kaula).
Many mystics will become His followers or devotees and a few of them will experience His ability (in His live presence) to raise the kulakundalini of any person or animal that has a spine and receive the experience of temporary enlightenment.
This abilty is unique to Taraka Brahma, only He has it.

That is why according to these teachings you can't put Lord Shiva or Lord Krishna in a line of prophets or other messengers, because They play a unique divine role that cannot be compared to the roles of other great spiritual leaders.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Taraka Brahma is explained by Anandamurti as a mysterious figure who arrives at a time in history when humanity is in crisis as a result of the increased dominance of a-dharmic forces in society.
Taraka Brahma appears in order to re-establish Dharma on earth by His example and ideology (the two cannot be separated, so They are one with their ideology).

Thank you for this explanation.

This sounds like the Universal Manifestation of God.

No doubt you’ve connected the dots by now and realised Baha’is believe (those who know something about Hinduism at least) that Bahá’u’lláh is the 10th avatar of Vishnu/God or the Kalki Avatar. Buddha was also an Avatar.

Hindu Prophecies and the Incarnation of the Kalki Avatar

If we accept the historic Shiva as you believe and the Baha’is can not discount the possibility, then the Dharmic lineage becomes Shiva, Krishna, Buddha then Bahá’u’lláh.

We would then have to consider why an Avatar of God has come out of Persia, not India.

In Hindu spiritual philosophy there is Nirguna Brahma, which is God beyond His creation and there is Saguna Brahma, the part of God as creator and maintainer of His universe.
Taraka Brahma takes a human body, so He must be somehow associated with Saguna Brahma but He is also associated with Nirguna Brahma and He forms a bridge between the two. So all jiivas who want Nirvikalpa Samadhi (final liberation by merging in Nirguna Brahma) will have to go through Taraka Brahma.

This is all consistent with Baha’i cosmology IMHO.

According to Shrii Shrii Ananamurti Taraka Brahma appeared only three times on this one planet and the time spans were approximately 3500 years between the different appearances.

Obviously the Baha’is see a few more. I’m presuming Anandamurti references are to Lord Shiva and Lord Krishna? Who else?

Someone who becomes established in mystic spirituality will be able to raise his/her kulakundalini from the base of the spine through all the chakras (layers of the mind) upto the Sahasrara Chakra (the seat of God). That person, who can raise the kulakundalini at will, has become a so-called Kaula.

At the heart of any faith is mysticism. Another core focus on of the Baha’i Faith is a fundamental reordering of human affairs to create a global commonwealth. The peace and security of all the inhabitants of the world depend on us urgently achieving this goal. So while we may learn from the Hindu mystics to access these potent forces the needs of humanity take precedence over an elite few attaining enlightenment.

Taraka Brahma has many special qualities that distinguish Him from ordinary people but one quality is that He is a Mahakaula (Great Kaula).
Many mystics will become His followers or devotees and a few of them will experience His ability to raise the kulakundalini of any person or animal that has a spine and give them the experience of enlightenment.
This abilty is unique to Taraka Brahma, only He has it.

That may well happen in the next religious era along with universal vegetarianism lol.

That is why according to these teachings you can never put Lord Shiva or Lord Krishna in a line of prophets or other messengers, because They play a unique divine role that cannot be compared to the roles of other great spiritual leaders.

I kinda see what you’re saying if we were to give precedence to mysticism. In the Abrahamic Faiths an example of mystics have been with some monastic orders. Bahá’u’lláh asked the monks to come out of seclusion and assist humanity. Mysticism and living a practical good life are complimentary. I think your focus is on mysticism. The focus for the Baha’is is to create a more cohesive just and unified world. Mysticism is the means through which we will affect that spiritual transformation both within ourselves and our communities.

That’s how I see it but really appreciated hearing your views regardless of our different perspectives. It’s fascinating seeing our different approach to universalism.