I'm not aware of any Baha'is on RF that beleive they are God. Are you?
Ego is a problem for us all if you go back and read my OP.
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I'm not aware of any Baha'is on RF that beleive they are God. Are you?
Ego is a problem for us all if you go back and read my OP.
No. Just very close. Close enough to worry for their sanity. Some don't have the ability to retract a statement, apologize, of even give an inch. They are always right, and get extremely defensive when OB, Didymus, or myself questions their thinking at all. I personally see it as unhealthy.
If we want something about clinical deusions from wikipedia rather than the word delusion that is simply used to insult people of Faith try....
Grandiose delusions - Wikipedia
Grandiose delusions - Wikipedia
I linked that to you already I thought. Are you reading my posts?
Of course. Which one?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
To be more precise it would be 93%.
According to sociologists Ariela Keysar and Juhem Navarro-Rivera's review of numerous global studies on atheism, there are 450 to 500 million positive atheists and agnostics worldwide (7% of the world's population), with China having the most atheists in the world (200 million convinced atheists).
Demographics of atheism - Wikipedia
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
You said: “No, I meant people who think they ARE God, a subset of grandiose delusion. I'm saying that because Baha'is often misinterpret the idea of infallibilty, to practically include themselves, it's getting dangerously close to considering yourself God. The ego thing again. Certainly it's grandiose delusion, about the impact your faith has on this planet. Gross over-exaggeration.”
But we do not include ourselves as infallible, far from it. You are confusing strong faith with ego. The two are not the same, not psychologically or any other way.
It certainly is not a grandiose delusion or a gross over-exaggeration if God has spoken to Baha’u’llah and He was the Return of Christ, the Messiah, the Promised One of all ages. That is why I said to CG that the first thing we should be questioning whether Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God or not... Nothing else matters.
A person with a god complex may refuse to admit the possibility of their error or failure, even in the face of irrefutable evidence, intractable problems or difficult or impossible tasks. The person is also highly dogmatic in their views, meaning the person speaks of their personal opinions as though they were unquestionably correct.[1] Someone with a god complex may exhibit no regard for the conventions and demands of society, and may request special consideration or privileges.[1] God complex - Wikipedia
We believe we are unquestionably correct, but so what? Jews, Christians and Muslims also believe that. Why single out the Baha’is?
As I have said before, if you have any irrefutable evidence that proves the claim of Baha’u’llah is incorrect, I am all ears. This gig does get old after a while...
We believe we are unquestionably correct, but so what? Jews, Christians and Muslims also believe that. Why single out the Baha’is?
Yes, I would say the same thing about them too, but for one difference, As far as I know they don't believe in infallibility of their prophet in all things. Only the Baha'i do that.
Again, belief is not proof ... at all. Saying you have proof is simply not proof, in almost anyone's books. (Shall I make a poll?) But go ahead, think you have proof. I, nor anyone else can stop you.
Infallibilty belief was one of the words used in the link about God-complex. Many of the so called messiah claimants of history would be treated today for it.
I worry some days for the absolute rigidity of some belief systems. What happens if the leader says go kill everyone? What happens if somebody digs up a scripture of the prophet's that says something at all like that? Are people even able enough for themselves to see through such things?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Most Christians believe that Jesus was God, and God is infallible by definition, so you can do the math.
What is worse yet, since Jesus IS GOD, and Jesus is the Only Way, according to Christians all the other religions are false since we believe that our Prophets spoke for God.
I never said that belief was proof and actually I said that belief is not proof of anything at all. There is evidence that Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God, a lot of good evidence. Adrain posted to me on the Homeopathy thread that there is proof that Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God, so I await his response. I never said there is proof, I only ever said there is evidence. Evidence is not the same as proof;
Evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid:
Proof: evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement:
What happened with other Messiah claimants does not prove anything about Baha'u'llah. As I said, Baha'u'llah was either (a) a Manifestation of God or (b) a false prophet (deluded or liar). If (a), then if He said He was infallible, He was infallible. It is really that simple. I do not like to make things complicated.
If anything that Baha'u'llah wrote was in-congruent with the highest moral standards of behavior, I probably would never have become a Baha'i in the first place, because it was the teachings that attracted me to the Baha'i Faith, not Baha'u'llah.
It's a long list, and most if not all of the other Messiah claimants make exact or very similar cases as Baha'u'llah. It's a relatively long list, and I'm sure it's not exhaustive. Each adherenet of each guy believes the same about their guy as you do about your guy. Each group considers that theirs is the one and only true one. I reject all of it, not just Baha'i.
So I'm not picking on Bahaì as you insinuate. I`m debating the concepts, and Bahaì are the only group here right now that choose to argue incessantly that they`re right, and the rest of us are all wrong, whether we strongly believe in another prophet, are atheist, or are of the dharmic faiths, like me.
But I`ll let it go for now. Somebody has to jump in occasionally and put forward their views, if they disagree with claims that seem unreasonable.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
So you take the Baha'i Faith very seriously and very literally. What about people that take their religion very serious and literally? You tell them they are wrong. Jesus talked about the devil and hell, but you say there is no devil nor hell. What about all those Christians that obeyed all those rules and moral codes of their religion. What was the point? Are they in heaven with Jesus? Or, are their dreams of heaven an illusion?Pardon the interruption, but maybe the question you should be asking is why people cannot give up what they WANT for what God wants for them and realize God knows more about what is good for them than they know, since God is All-Knowing and All-Wise.
People CAN give that stuff up if they want to. Life for most people is all about what they want, and it is all about the physical pleasures and the material world. These are here today, gone tomorrow. By contrast, anything that is related to the mind or to helping other people is something that is eternal because it goes with us to the next world. In essence, we are a soul, not a physical body. The material world is just an illusion that people imagine to be real. After we die, we will realize it was not important at all, but I already know because of what Baha'u'llah wrote. I do not spend any more time than I have to on what is not important in the eyes of God. That would be illogical not to mention foolish.
I live on the Baha'u'llah channel. I now resume you to regular programming.
“The world is but a show, vain and empty, a mere nothing, bearing the semblance of reality. Set not your affections upon it. Break not the bond that uniteth you with your Creator, and be not of those that have erred and strayed from His ways. Verily I say, the world is like the vapor in a desert, which the thirsty dreameth to be water and striveth after it with all his might, until when he cometh unto it, he findeth it to be mere illusion. It may, moreover, be likened unto the lifeless image of the beloved whom the lover hath sought and found, in the end, after long search and to his utmost regret, to be such as cannot “fatten nor appease his hunger.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 328-329
Lots of religious people go to the extreme of trying to be "holy". I wonder how happy they are? Many religions have their woman cover themselves up. What are the Baha'is going to do? Like I said, if you're not going to stone them to death or threaten them with eternal hellfire, what makes you think all Baha'is are going to obey the chastity rules? And if they don't, what good are the rules? Jesus set the bar very high and priests and pastors can't follow it... let alone ordinary Christians.
Yet Baha'is are going to be able to do better? And what if they don't? The Baha'i rules will put gays back in the closet, reopen speakeasies and bootlegging, and have Baha'is sneaking off to the seeding sides of town. "Good" Christians couldn't prevent it happening in their churches. Why will the Baha'i Faith succeed in making a "perfect", Baha'i law abiding community? Or, is the "perfect" Baha'i community an illusion? I can't live by Baha'i laws nor Christian laws, but at least I can admit that to myself. And, I'm not going to beat myself up over not being able to be "holy" enough for God.
Many Christians do see the Bible as the inerrant Word of God as Muslims see the Qur'an as the Word of God.
Biblical infallibility - Wikipedia
Biblical inerrancy - Wikipedia
Is the Bible truly God's Word?
Quran: The Word of God
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Many of the Christian beliefs are wrong and if they think they are getting to heaven just by believing in Jesus and that He died for them then they are wrong. Good deeds are also necessary.
Life is about more than personal happiness. Just because people cannot obey the rules does not mean God is going to lower His Standards. God does not barter but there is no eternal hellfire for sexual misconduct. People pay their own price for that. Anyone who lives for the material world pleasures pays a price.
Nobody is expected to be perfect. The Laws are something to shoot for. The Spirit of the Law is more important than the Letter of the Law. I do not obey all the Laws.
In the future, this will not be an issue because people will want to obey the Laws, but the future is a long way off. Meanwhile, people just do the best they can. Don't beat yourself up.
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So it seems that mainly the so-called Abrahamic religions have such ideas about their scriptures and the fallibility of scriptures outside their religion. Many born again christians will even believe that you are tempting the devil by reading in the scriptures of other faiths or paths.
On the other hand almost any faith or path will stress the extra or special worth of its own scriptures and be able tell you about certain flaws in other scriptures.
That is all true. But we can also appreciate the sacred writings and traditions of other Faiths in a way that demonstrates profound respect. As a Baha’i I revere not only about the Tanakh, New Testament, Holy Qur’an and Baha’i writings but also the Buddhist sutras, and the Bhagavad Gita.
This profound respect is the gift for humanity in this age. This ties back to the concept of One Common Faith and why a Bahai sees that all Messengers are Infallable.
We see them all born of the Most Great Spirit, they are the cause of Creation and the givers of the Holy Spirit, the station of Infallibility, the Primal Will, the Alpha and Omega, the I Am.
Any other infallibility is conferred by the Holy Spirit, on to who they choose and how they choose. We are to accept what God has chosen for each of us.
What better motive to learn of all Faiths and answer all the issues that have plagued our Faths in God in the past.
Reagrds Tony
The history of humanity up until recently has been plagued with wars and conflicts. Sometimes the wisdom has been to turn the other cheek as Christ taught. Other times to take up arms in defence. There is a season for every challenge humanity faces.
Ecclesiastes 3:1-8
You mean like in mostly paying lipp service to having respect or to really take an interest and also explaining the deeper textual parallels and differences between the teachings?
Most of my threads on RF have been about exploring faiths other than my own.
adrian009
I grew up Christian and have practised and studied Christianity prior to becoming a Baha’i. Recently I’ve been studying Islam and have started examining Buddhism more closely.
That wasn't an answer to my question, was it?
Just repeatedly saying you revere something seems to me not very useful.
I'd rather want to know how you think about certain parts of those texts and actually see you discuss them.