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Featured Why Jesus Will Never Return and How the Bible Refutes Itself

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Hubert Farnsworth, Jun 4, 2019.

  1. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    If that is the case this does not worry you? It should for what you are posting here is exactly what was foretold would be happening just before the second coming...

    2 Peter 3:3-13
    [3], Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
    [4], And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
    [5], For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
    [6], Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
    [7], But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved to fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
    [8], But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
    [9], The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long-suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
    [10], But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
    [11], Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
    [12], Looking for and hastening to the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
    [13], Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwells righteousness.

    1 Thessalonians 5:2-3
    [2], For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.
    [3], For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction comes on them, as travail on a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

    Luke 17:24-30
    [24], For as the lightning, that lightens out of the one part under heaven, shines to the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.
    [25], But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.
    [26], And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
    [27], They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
    [28], Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built;
    [29], But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
    [30], Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

    Revelation 13:41-42
    [41], The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
    [42], And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

    Revelations 6:14-17
    [14], And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
    [15], And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every slave, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
    [16], And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
    [17], For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

    Hebrews 10:31
    [31], It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

    Yep glad I am not following your religion. Your not worried? You should be.
     
  2. Sandra Jayne

    Sandra Jayne Member

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    If that is what you choose to believe then God gave us free choice and you are exercising it.

    In my bible it says- "Some of those who are standing here will not taste death......
    Of course this is true because a 'great crowd' will survive the coming tribulation.
     
  3. MonkeyFire

    MonkeyFire Well-Known Member

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    I think he had disciples with the ability to live eternal lives as he died for their sins giving them the way to the tree of life.
     
  4. SugarOcean

    SugarOcean ¡pɹᴉǝM ʎɐʇS

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    That's a good question for them. And I do know being Agnostic isn't a rule violation. That wasn't the point of the report. :D
     
  5. Hubert Farnsworth

    Hubert Farnsworth Well-Known Member

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    And yet not once have you ever addressed any question I have about Christianity, or any argument I make about the bible. I can only assume that you never know how to answer, and hope to change the subject using irrelevant drivel.
     
  6. Hubert Farnsworth

    Hubert Farnsworth Well-Known Member

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    The context clearly reveals that you are incorrect, because Jesus is speaking to his disciples *in second person.* See Matthew 24:32-34
    "Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near.

    Even so,
    when YOU see all these things, YOU know that it is near, right at the door.

    I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

    Recall that this is a *private* conversation Jesus had with his disciples (see verse 1). Clearly, the verses state that the disciples themselves would see all these things (hence the word "YOU" directed toward them, and NOT "they"). This clarifies that the generation being alluded to is the generation alive at that time.

    Also, your claim about the reference to "false Christs" indicating this could not be a first-century prophecy is also clearly incorrect. Jesus (supposedly) died on a cross very shortly after this conversation. Most of the generation alive at that time lived well past Jesus' crucifixion.
     
    #107 Hubert Farnsworth, Jul 7, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2019
    • Winner Winner x 1
  7. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    Rubbish. Post # 100 linked debunks your OP scripture by scripture. If you do not agree respond to this post section by section and scripture by scripture as has been done to your OP. Would not like to be in your shoes come judgment day.
     
  8. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member
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    The futuristic view of Revelation is relatively new.
     
  9. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    Rubbish! You do indeed do not understand the scriptures. As shown in Post # 100 linked the context has two parts;

    Part 1 (Mark 13:12-20) is in reference to the signs of the destruction of Jerusalem in reference to Daniel the prophet (Daniel 9:24-27) and written in reference to all those present and to all those reading in the present tense who would be living in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD and for us today as history records the fulfillment of these events happening in detail. Prophecy fulfilled perfectly according to the scriptures supported by History.

    Part 2 (Mark 13:21-30) continues all the rest of the signs that must take place prior to the second coming. This generation is in reference to the generation that will be present at the fulfillment of all the signs listed by Jesus! When Jesus was alive there could not be false Christs because he was alive. So the section of scriptures in relation to the 2nd coming are in reference to after the death of Jesus because he was living he was the true Christ. So before the 2nd coming the "this generation" being referred to here is the generation that would see;

    1. False Christs arise showing great signs and wonders to deceive God's people v22;
    2. Great tribulation, the sun darkening, the moon not giving light v24-25;
    3. The stars of heaven falling, the shaking of the heavens v25;
    4. The second coming v26-27.

    Now please tell me my friend in relation to the signs listed for the 2nd coming, have they all been fulfilled?

    How can there be false Christs arising in the lifetime of Jesus or the Apostles who where His witnesses for the generation that was living in Jesus time?

    Your interpretation and application of the scriptures makes no sense.

    This generation being refered to here is that generation that sees these signs listed prior to the 2nd coming will see the 2nd coming. It not not talking about those who were alive in Jesus day. It is in reference to the generation that would see all these signs fulfilled prior to the 2nd coming.

    .........

    Now you quote v29 [29], So you in like manner, when you shall see these things come to pass, know that it is near, even at the doors.

    You in like manner (present tense; now) when you shall see these things come to pass is in reference to "all these signs listed" coming to pass (being fulfilled) which is in reference to the generation that sees all these signs come to pass!

    Did those living in Jesus day see all the signs listed come to pass? Nope!

    [29], So you in like manner, when you shall see these things come to pass, know that it is near, even at the doors.

    So you in like manner, "present tense" when you shall see these things come to pass, know that it is near, even at the doors (reference to the generation that sees all these signs come to pass) will see the second coming is near.

    ...........

    Your point about false Christs and the death of Jesus is also not relavent as the Apostles also lived past the death of Jesus and were a part of their generation.

    You do indeed try to twist the scriptures to your own destruction in order to deny God. Would not like to be in your shoes come judgment day.

    Hope this helps
     
    #110 3rdAngel, Jul 7, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2019
  10. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    Hi Soda, it is an historicist view. Many of the early reformers had the same view.
     
    #111 3rdAngel, Jul 7, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2019
  11. Hubert Farnsworth

    Hubert Farnsworth Well-Known Member

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    As I stated before, Matthew 24 is a *private* conversation between Jesus and his disciples, and he addressed them directly in the second person present tense, as you have quoted above. Now, why would he address them directly in second person if it was a reference to some future generation? Clearly, it's not a reference to some future generation, because if it were, the third person rather than second person language would be used. You're not being intellectually honest with yourself. Even CS Lewis had the guts to admit that these were failed prophecies, as he referred to this as the "most embarrasing verse in the bible."
     
  12. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    Jesus speaking these words my friend to the disciples who's commission were to share his Word to the world does not change the meaning of the scriptures or the application to those reading them (always present tense) and to those they are intended for. *1 Corinthians 10:11; 2 Timothy 3:16; Matthew 4:4. It is you who are twisting the scriptures in order to deny God, who we will all stand before come judgment day *John 12:48. Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it *Romans 3:4. You pointing to a man over the word of God does not support your argument but only shows you believe the teachings and words of men over the word of God.
     
    #113 3rdAngel, Jul 7, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2019
  13. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member
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    Daniel is a complete fiction that was written about Antiochus IV Epiphanes.. during the Maccabean Revolt..

    The tribulation was over in 70 AD.. New followers of Jesus went to
    Daniel was written by a bunch of Jews in 165-68 BC during the Maccabean Revolt. Its bogus. There never was any Daniel.. They borrowed a fictional character from the North Coast Canaanites 1500 years earlier.
     
  14. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    Does it not worry you that you cannot prove what your saying?
     
  15. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member
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    I have proven it over and over... Daniel is a book of fiction based on Dan'el from the Ugaritic literature of Ras Shamra.
     
  16. Hubert Farnsworth

    Hubert Farnsworth Well-Known Member

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    Matthew 24:33-34:
    Even so, when YOU see all these things, YOU know that it is near, right at the door.

    I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

    The verses clearly indicate that Jesus spoke directly to his disciples and stated that they would see all of the end-of-the world signs that he referred to previously. This is why the second person pronoun "you" rather than the third person pronoun "they" is used. I am not "twisting" the scriptures. I am reading them as they are written, and have shown that they are incorrect, yet you respond with irrelevant drivel quoting various irrelevant verses. You've lost this debate, bud. Give it up.
     
  17. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    I see, so because you say so it must be so which is like saying I believe the ocean is purple when it is really blue. I choose to believe God's Word you are free to believe as you wish.
     
  18. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    So did you want to have a discussion? Your only repeating yourself now without responding to my earlier posts which addresses this post and all of your OP. You have no response do you. Does this not worry you? It should. It is you my friend that has lost the debate already even before you started because you try to use God's Word in order to deny God who we must all stand before come judgment day. Ignoring God's Word does not make it dissappear.
     
    #119 3rdAngel, Jul 7, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2019
  19. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member
    It's My Birthday!

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    Has nothing to do with God's word.
     
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