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Featured Why Jesus Will Never Return and How the Bible Refutes Itself

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Hubert Farnsworth, Jun 4, 2019.

  1. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member
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    So are you saying Jesus was wrong about saying it would be soon, before that generation passed?
     
  2. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    The Jewish Temple along with Jerusalem were destroyed in 70AD as He said it would be. The signs heralding the rise of a new age and the fall of the old all took place within 40 years of His sermon.

    Apocalyptic writings are never straight forward though. The language is symbolic and allegorical. Regardless it appears clear to me, Jesus is speaking of two main events, one that was fulfilled within the generation He spoke, another was to happen much latter.
     
  3. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member
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    It appears that Revelation was an existing Jewish writing that was adapted by John of Patmos.
     
  4. Marcion

    Marcion Tantra-Yoga Universalist

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    More likely though is that the author of the text lived after the destruction of the temple and could write the "prediction" into the text by putting those words into the mouth of Jesus.
     
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  5. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member
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    Yes, most prophesy was written after the fact.


    Vaticinium ex eventu. The text is written so as to appear that the prophecy had taken place before the event, when in fact it was written after the events supposedly predicted. Vaticinium ex eventu is a form of hindsight bias. The concept is similar but distinct from postdiction, where prophecies that were genuinely written or spoken before...
    Vaticinium ex eventu - Wikipedia
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaticinium_ex_eventu
     
  6. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    Scholars have their theories and its always important to be able to consider the different possibilities. My understanding is the author had a genuine mystical experience. That is certainly what is conveyed by the text. What is your evidence that its a redacted version of a pre-existing text?
     
  7. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member
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    Just remember that apocalyptic literature was VERY popular for about 300 years.


    Revelation of John, the original Jewish version ...
    historical-jesus.info/rjohn.html

    The Jewish original version of Revelation (or Apocalypse) of John, much more coherent than the final one, was written very likely (in Greek) late 70 or 71 C.E. in Syrian Antioch by a temple of Jerusalem ex-priest named John.

    This work offered an explanation for the holocaust of 70 C.E., with the destruction of Jerusalem & its temple, all of that at the hands of the Romans, and also a badly needed hope for the …
     
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  8. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    If you don't believe in prophets that can predict future events, that is the only explanation. Some scholars date Mark being written as early as 66 AD before the key events described.
     
  9. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    Unfortunately no such Jewish text exists to verify this hypothesis. I agree the book of Revelation provided hope to the Christian community during a very difficult time. The book like a number of New testament works is difficult to definitively identify the actual author and to precisely date. I'm comfortable with uncertainly. The conservative Christians have their hypotheses as the liberal scholars do. With all the uncertainty it would be a mistake to ignore the merits of arguments provided by both sides of the debate.
     
  10. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member
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    This may be helpful in considering Mark,

    Gospel of Mark
     
  11. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member
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    From Luke 6:13–16 (NIV):

    When morning came, he called his disciples to him and chose twelve of them, whom he also designated apostles: Simon (whom he named Peter), his brother Andrew, James, John, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James son of Alphaeus, Simon who was called the Zealot, Judas son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.

    John and Matthew were included, but the remaining two authors of the Gospel – Mark and Luke – were not. Why is this, and how did they come to know Jesus so closely as to later write his Gospel?
     
  12. Hubert Farnsworth

    Hubert Farnsworth Well-Known Member

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    Even though the word "rapture" is not used in the bible, the CONCEPT of the rapture is clearly biblical. The "rapture" is defined as "the transporting of believers to heaven at the Second Coming of Christ." Clearly, this concept is found in the Bible. I have already cited Mark 13 TWICE which clearly states Jesus was going to return and transport Christians to the clouds of heaven within the lifetime of the generation listening to him. For the third time I will point you to it again (Mark 13:24-27): "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; "the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be a shaken. "Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. "And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

    Clearly, this is a reference to the concept of the rapture and the End of the World. Yet when we continue reading, we see it was predicted to occur within the Jesus' 12 disciples' generation's lifetime. So, the prophecy failed.
     
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  13. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member
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    Mark was a disciple of Peter not Jesus.

    The rapture was to reassure the living..

    The question is often asked, “Will we see our loved ones again?” The apostle Paul wrote these words to reassure the Thessalonians …

    The Rapture: A Popular but False Doctrine | United Church ...
    https://www.ucg.org/world-news-and-prophecy/the-rapture-a-popular-but-false-doctrine
    Aug 01, 2008 · Both Darby and Scofield claimed that the “day of Christ” refers to the rapture and that “the day of the Lord” refers to the actual second coming several years after the rapture.
     
  14. A Vestigial Mote

    A Vestigial Mote Well-Known Member

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    It has always perplexed me how anyone (in their right mind that is) concludes that the prophecy is simply yet to be executed/established/come when Jesus specifically and clearly states that people who were at that gathering would not be dead before it was come to pass. Arguing against that is basically arguing against Jesus. Seriously now. How could it not be? That's clearly and unavoidably what he said, and you want to pretend he meant something else. Good luck with your stint in Lala land folks.
     
  15. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Well-Known Member

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    1) Is this teaching from the Book of Context? That's what it's out of...

    2) Genera has nearly a dozen meanings, only one of which can mean "generation"--Jesus is promising Jewish people will be there when He returns to Israel and LOOK AT ALL THE JEWISH PEOPLE THERE NOW!

    3) Peter and Paul BOTH said Jesus would return after they died, Paul says "After a long time, when the Temple has Antichrist in it, Jesus will return, not before," and LOOK, MA, NO TEMPLE IN JERUSALEM YET!
     
  16. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    The chance that anyone memorized verbatim what "Jesus"
    said is so totally improbable, that it seems generally given
    to "god" to have helped out with the infallible bit.
    Seems to like "Jesus" is a bit of a composite character,
    mad to embody all manner of things.

    I think the Christmas carol got it right with the line

    "the hopes and fear of all the years are met in ye".
     
  17. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    In Lala Land, where the bible-believers doth dwell, the bible
    says whatever they want it to say.
     
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  18. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    One lil prob with prophecy is that it requires unending
    what is one of the most profound and basic
    aspects of the nature of reality, that being the relationship
    between cause, and effect.

    What some "scholars" seem to think is pretty weak stuff
    to match against that.
     
  19. OtherSheep

    OtherSheep <--- Bethulah

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    Mark wasn't a Discipled Apostle.
    To base what you think about Jesus, upon the writings of some hearsayist, is wrong-headed. Jesus, in His prayer to His Father, prays for His Discipled Apostles, and says we will believe on Him by their words.
    Whatever doesn't match Matthew and John is tares.
     
  20. It Aint Necessarily So

    It Aint Necessarily So Well-Known Member
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    It's you twisting scripture. It doesn't need to use the word rapture to describe the prophesied event currently called the rapture.

    Except that it's your tactic here, isn't it?

    Atheists don't need tactics. We simply look at the claims for Christianity, reject them for their lack of evidentiary support, and return to our lives without an utterance or other action. Christianity simply isn't relevant as an ideology to the skeptic, and needs no tactic to reject.

    How does that distinguish it from multiple other ideas found in Christianity, such as three gods being one, someone surviving in the belly of a great fish or whale, a flood needing more water than is found on earth, or the alleged miracle of the sun wiggling in the sky? Are those sane ideas?

    I'm literate in English, so like all other people able to read and understand for themselves, I can assure you that that's neither what the scriptures say nor mean. That was a failed prophecy.

    I realize that by faith, you consider that impossible, but that is only relevant to you. I don't use faith to think, and don't value conclusion based in faith.
     
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