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Featured Why jesus curse and stop the fig then he can't stop the devil sabotage activity

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by j1i, Sep 4, 2019.

  1. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Active Member

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    What a misrepresentation of what I said. I didn't say God turned into a human being. But he did manifest himself in the flesh. The fulness of the Godhead/Deity was dwelling in that body. Colossians 2:8-9 That made him the image of the invisible God. Colossians 2:14-16 That was also why he was referred to as having created all things. The question is WHO was it that was dwelling in that body?

    Explain who it was in Hebrews 2:14-16 that took on the seed of Abraham. If he was just a man as you say, how would he have a choice between taking on the nature of angels or taking on the seed of Abraham?
     
  2. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Active Member

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    No it makes sense you just don't agree with what it says. But it is that way in the Hebrew text - and they will look on me whom they pierced and they will mourn for him as mourning for an only son... I believe the reason is because of there being Spirit and flesh involved. They would pierce the eternal Spirit YHWH who was dwelling in the body, but the eternal Spirit can't die. But there would be mourning over the flesh that died.


    Let's add Isaiah 44:6 and Isaiah 48:12 into this. YHWH said he was the first and the last. But the Messiah said he was the first and the last in Revelation 1:17-18 and Revelation 22:12-13 Explain how they both can claim to be first and last? If I said I was first and last in a race wouldn't it mean I was the only one in the race?

    How can both claim to be the Alpha and Omega? How can both claim to be the Beginning and the End?

    By the way, I am still waiting for you to explain how he was both David's Root and his Descendant. David was dead before the Messiah was born, so explain how was he the root of David?
     
  3. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

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    The answer to your OP. The Father hasn't stopped Satan or the devil so Jesus wouldn't either. Has nothing to do whether he was God.

    So your conclusion would be wrong.

    If your position is that Jesus isn't God because he didn't stop Satan/devil -- then God isn't God because He hasn't stopped him either.
     
  4. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

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    Not that hard...

    Man is a spirit, has a soul and lives in a body. (1 These 5:23 and other places too). Each part has different characteristics and even different materiality but yet the three are one being. Man was created in the image and likeness of God.

    Because you have to understand why he was like that and not omit all the scriptures that says he was God. You have to go back to Genesis 1 and find out why The Word (God) had to become flesh without power and receive the power of God's Holy Spirit (the third part of God).

    So while on earth, he was in the form of man. But don't forget what Jesus prayed, "John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

    1. Only God has glory--and The Word (who later became Jesus) had the same glory
    2. Jesus had glory (power) before he became man. But while on earth had to be fully man to take back the authority that Satan received from Adam
    3. Jesus has the same glory of God that He had before he became man.
     
  5. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    I'm quite sure that Muslims came to know of Jesus by reading the Synoptic Gospels namely:
    the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John
    so let us examine if Jesus was worshiped by people of his time and if these people saw Jesus as
    a god, or a demi-god, or 50% god and 50% human or a special human being.

    upload_2019-9-8_14-24-20.jpeg

    Matthew 2:1-2 New International Version (NIV)
    After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem and asked, “Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him.”

    The Magi knew that the one they were looking for is a child born king of the Jews.- ergo they are looking for a human being. And why are they looking for the child? They have come to worship him. Which they did.

    [​IMG]

    Matthew 2:11 New International Version (NIV)
    On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh.

    [​IMG]

    Matthew 14:30-34 New International Version (NIV)
    But when he saw the wind, he was afraid and, beginning to sink, cried out, “Lord, save me!”

    Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him. “You of little faith,” he said, “why did you doubt?”

    And when they climbed into the boat, the wind died down. Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”

    When they had crossed over, they landed at Gennesaret.

    After these scene what did the people who were in the boat did?
    They worshiped Jesus. Did they worship him as the a god?
    No they did not - they worshiped him as the Son of God.

    [​IMG]

    Matthew 28:8-10 New International Version (NIV)
    So the women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples. Suddenly Jesus met them. “Greetings,” he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him. Then Jesus said to them, “Do not be afraid. Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee; there they will see me.”

    So when Jesus walked the earth, people of that time worshiped Jesus.
    not as God but the son of God
    Jesus is truly human not God


    Jesus the Christ was crucified as the gospel records this.

    Matthew 27:22-24 New International Version (NIV)
    “What shall I do, then, with Jesus who is called the Messiah?” Pilate asked.

    They all answered, “Crucify him!”

    “Why? What crime has he committed?” asked Pilate.

    But they shouted all the louder, “Crucify him!”

    When Pilate saw that he was getting nowhere, but that instead an uproar was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd. “I am innocent of this man’s blood,” he said. “It is your responsibility!”

    upload_2019-9-8_14-48-8.jpeg

    Mark 15:18-20 New International Version (NIV)
    And they began to call out to him, “Hail, king of the Jews!” Again and again they struck him on the head with a staff and spit on him. Falling on their knees, they paid homage to him. And when they had mocked him, they took off the purple robe and put his own clothes on him. Then they led him out to crucify him.



    Muhammad is not found in the Bible. However if you know where it is, I would be happy to look for it.

    Muhammad
    Religious leader
    Description
    Muhammad was an Arab religious, social and political leader and the founder of Islam. According to Islamic doctrine, he was a prophet, sent to present and confirm the monotheistic teachings preached previously by Adam, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and other prophets. Wikipedia
    Born: 22 April 571 AD, Mecca, Saudi Arabia
    Died: 8 June 632 AD, Medina, Saudi Arabia
    Full name: Abū al-Qāsim Muḥammad ibn ʿAbd Allāh ibn ʿAbd al-Muṭṭalib ibn Hāshim
    Spouse: Maymunah bint al-Harith (m. 629 AD–632 AD), MORE
    Children: Fatimah bint Muhammad, Ruqayyah bint Muhammad, MORE



    What is wrong with farting? Everyone who eats farts.
    Jesus is not in this planet
    He was taken up to heaven

    Matthew 26:64 New International Version (NIV)
    “You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

    [​IMG]
     
  6. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    You cited
    Revelation 22:16 New International Version (NIV)
    “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

    This verse does not in any way say Jesus is God because the Bible does not say he is.
    Jesus has an angel - well even the little children of God have children of their own - are they Gods too???

    Matthew 18:10
    "See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven.

    Being the root and the child of David does not suggest Jesus is God moreover it suggest that Jesus is a descendant of David

    Romans 1:3 New International Version (NIV)
    regarding his Son, who as to his earthly life was a descendant of David,

    How about the Bright Morning Star? - would that mean Jesus is God?

    [​IMG]

    Even Satan was called a morning star

    Isaiah 14:12 New International Version (NIV)

    How you have fallen from heaven,
    morning star, son of the dawn!
    You have been cast down to the earth,
    you who once laid low the nations!




    You cited another verse - really???
    John 8:56-59 New International Version (NIV)
    Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”

    “You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”

    “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

    Did Jesus say before Abraham was born, I am....God???
    You have jumped into conclusion. What is not written do not assume.
    Jesus wasn't born yet when Abraham's mother was pregnant with him, am I correct?
    So why did Jesus say before Abraham was born, I am?
    I am what???
    Before Abraham was born a lot of people were already busy with their respective lives.
    Genesis 11:10-26 records From Shem to Abram
    And we can't find Jesus on the list but why did Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”?
    He was what? Alive? Walking? Dancing with the stars? What?
    God mentioned about Jesus when Adam and Eve sinned in Paradise and where was he mentioned?

    Genesis 3:14-15 New International Version (NIV)
    So the Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,

    “Cursed are you above all livestock
    and all wild animals!
    You will crawl on your belly
    and you will eat dust
    all the days of your life.
    And I will put enmity
    between you and the woman,
    and between your offspring and hers;
    he will crush your head,

    and you will strike his heel
    .”

    upload_2019-9-8_15-44-21.jpeg

    God mentioned about Jesus Christ to the serpent [Satan]
    This was during the fall of Adam and Eve, way way before Abraham was born.
    Therefore Jesus rightly answered:
    “before Abraham was born, I am!”
     
  7. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    I didn't say God turned into a human being. But he did manifest himself in the flesh. - same thing
    upload_2019-9-8_15-57-54.jpeg
    If your God has a shadow, that is not the God of the Bible - that is for sure.

    James 1:17 New Living Translation (NLT)
    Whatever is good and perfect is a gift coming down to us from God our Father, who created all the lights in the heavens. He never changes or casts a shifting shadow.


    If he was just a man as you say....

    [​IMG]
     
  8. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    If someone says I am Alpha ans Omega are they Gods?
    upload_2019-9-8_16-7-44.jpeg

    The thing is when you read something strange you would conclude - they must be Gods!
     
  9. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]

    God is the Beginning and the Ending of all things.

    God is the Beginning of all things
    upload_2019-9-8_16-39-6.jpeg

    God is the Ending of all things
    [​IMG]

    2 Peter 3:10-12 New International Version (NIV)

    But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

    Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.


    Jesus is the Beginning and the End, the First and Last

    Jesus is the Beginning, the First


    Colossians 1:18 New International Version (NIV)
    And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
    [​IMG]


    Jesus is the End, the Last

    1 Corinthians 15:23-28 New International Version (NIV)
    But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

    [​IMG]

    1 Corinthians 15:28 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
    After everything has been put under Christ, then the Son himself will be put under God. God is the one who put everything under Christ. And Christ will be put under God so that God will be the complete ruler over everything.


    [​IMG]

    That proves Jesus Christ the Son, is entirely different from God.
    This proves Jesus is not God because at the end of time

    Jesus Christ himself will be put under God

    "Then, when all things are under his authority, the Son will put himself under God’s authority, so that God, who gave his Son authority over all things, will be utterly supreme over everything everywhere." [ibid. New Living Translation]

    upload_2019-9-8_17-10-39.jpeg

    I did not say these things but these things are recorded, written a long time ago in the Bible, in everyone's bible - if you have one, please check it out.
     
  10. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]

    If he did not turn into a human being, what you are saying Jesus came to earth as God not turning into a human being?

    2 John 7 Common English Bible (CEB)
    Many deceivers have gone into the world who do not confess that Jesus Christ came as a human being. This kind of person is the deceiver and the antichrist.

    Wouldn't that make you a deceiver and an antichrist?

    Anyway back to your quoted Bible verse let us see...

    Colossians 2:8-10 New King James Version (NKJV)
    Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.

    That's it?
    All the fullness of the Godhead dwells in Jesus Christ and you concluded that He is God.

    [​IMG]

    So how would that make a person be if both the Father and the Son dwells in a person? Would he become another God? If not, then what is the difference between your verse up there and this verse down here?

    John 14:23 New Heart English Bible
    Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves me, he will keep my word; and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our dwelling place with him.

    And then when a million would love Jesus, they keep his word and the Father loves them and both the Son and the Father make their dwelling place with these million people, would they become 1,000,002 Gods????

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    What's that verses again?

    Colossians 2:14-16 New Living Translation (NLT)
    He canceled the record of the charges against us and took it away by nailing it to the cross. In this way, he disarmed the spiritual rulers and authorities. He shamed them publicly by his victory over them on the cross.

    So don’t let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new moon ceremonies or Sabbaths.

    [​IMG]

    Why did you cite this bible references? This is not even relevant to your commentary. That is the problem when you just cite and cite without even showing the message of the cited bible references and someone have to do those things for you.



    Hebrews 2:14-16 New Living Translation (NLT)
    Because God’s children are human beings—made of flesh and blood—the Son also became flesh and blood. For only as a human being could he die, and only by dying could he break the power of the devil, who had the power of death. Only in this way could he set free all who have lived their lives as slaves to the fear of dying.

    We also know that the Son did not come to help angels; he came to help the descendants of Abraham.

    [​IMG]

    You just shot yourself with your verse.
    See even your suggested verses are telling you:
    the Son also became flesh and blood

    which reminds me of what you said earlier
     
  11. j1i

    j1i Smiling is charity without giving money

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    Dear brother
    Thank you for participating and your noble goal
    I want to share with you a little bit :)

    I know that Christianity has been hacked a lot, and this is evidence from a Christian priest


    I'll leave the heavenly books aside :eek:
    I speak to you from my heart :rolleyes:
    I don't want to believe everything that is written o_O

    There is no evidence that everything written is from heaven;)
    Nor does it mean that individuals do the wrong thing, that they are right
    Like seeing stars and prostrating to him (these are foolish fabrications and false claims)

    I don't want to spread Islam
    I want to show my faith without exploitation and human slavery

    I write the subject because I am sure that Jesus is not divine but its a lie that has grown and become so great

    But I see the way everyone thinks and maybe I have benefited something

    My convictions are still standing

    I don't want to worship anything that eats food :)
     
  12. j1i

    j1i Smiling is charity without giving money

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    ahahaha
    thanks for friendly replays you and others
    with respect brother :hugehug:
    big hug
     
  13. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]
     
  14. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Active Member

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    What this proves to me is that you don't understand these scriptures. You are using paraphrase versions (like the ERV) that changed things to make it say what someone thinks it means.

    1 Corinthians 15:24-28 CAN'T be talking about the Messiah giving the kingdom up like you are saying. That would be in conflict with so many other scriptures.

    First - 1 Corinthians 15:28 doesn't even have Christ in the Greek. (When it mentions the son here it is talking about man and his descendants.)

    Second - The Messiah is not giving his kingdom up to anyone. His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom. Luke 1:33 says he shall reign over the house of Jacob forever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. Hebrews 1:8 says his throne is forever Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end... Isaiah 9:7

    Third - Verse 25 said he must reign till he hath put all enemies under his feet. Verse 26 says the last enemy is death. If it was talking about the Messiah, he would have already given up the kingdom because he has already conquered death which is the last enemy.

    Fourth - Genesis 1:27-28 lets us know God gave man dominion. Psalms 8:4-8 - What is man that thou art mindful of him? Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet. Hebrews 2:6-8 (more proof that it is man that God gave dominion to and put all things under his feet)

    Summary: 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 is talking about man delivering up the kingdom to God. Right now man is able to do as he pleases. He can choose whether to serve God or not. God has given man free will. But when the Messiah returns man will no longer be able to do as he pleases. He will relinquish the dominion given him over the kingdom of this world. Man will no longer be in control, and will be judged, like it or not.
     
    #154 TrueBeliever37, Sep 8, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2019
  15. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Active Member

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    It is hard to have a reasonable debate with you because of all the goofy videos you put in your posts. They muddy the discussion. Maybe that is what you want, since it is difficult for you to answer the questions in a straight forward manner. Maybe that helps you keep people from seeing how weak your replies are. Anyway I am thru unless you eliminate all the clutter.
     
  16. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]

    No interpretations, no twisting of what is written, just plain text

    1 Corinthians 15:24-28 New King James Version (NKJV)
    Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
     
  17. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Active Member

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    yep and it is man that is giving up the kingdom. Can't be the Messiah as his kingdom is forever. You replied so quick I know you didn't even really consider the points I made.
     
  18. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]

    That was to highlight your errors.
    You should try better next time.
    Why would one cite an irrelevant verse then explain something else?
    The thing is you would cite Bible verses and fail to show it.
    That is lazy. That is why you could not make a fact checking.

    According to so and so. Then you would explain another thing.
    That is your bad.
     
  19. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]

    The points you made?
    You would cite the verse without even bothering to look it up yourself?
    And when I call your attention, you have the nerve to scoff?
    Show the passage and the bible references not just lousy twisted interpretation.
    You could not do that because you would expose your own mistakes yourself.
     
  20. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]

    Other translations - does it support your interpretation:


    upload_2019-9-9_7-15-52.jpeg
    1 Corinthians 15:28 Amplified Bible, Classic Edition (AMPC)
    However, when everything is subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will also subject Himself to [the Father] Who put all things under Him, so that God may be all in all [be everything to everyone, supreme, the indwelling and controlling factor of life].

    upload_2019-9-9_7-16-27.jpeg

    1 Corinthians 15:28 Contemporary English Version (CEV)
    After everything is under the power of God’s Son, he will put himself under the power of God, who put everything under his Son’s power. Then God will mean everything to everyone.

    [​IMG]
    1 Corinthians 15:28 Expanded Bible (EXB)
    After everything has been ·put under [subjected to] the Son, then he will ·put himself under [be subjected to] ·God [L the One…], who had put all things under him. ·Then [or …so that] God will be ·the complete ruler over everything [or supreme in every place and in every way; L all in all].

    upload_2019-9-9_7-18-52.jpeg
    1 Corinthians 15:28 Good News Translation (GNT)
    But when all things have been placed under Christ's rule, then he himself, the Son, will place himself under God, who placed all things under him; and God will rule completely over all.

    upload_2019-9-9_7-19-31.jpeg
    1 Corinthians 15:28 Names of God Bible (NOG)
    But when God puts everything under Christ’s authority, the Son will put himself under God’s authority, since God had put everything under the Son’s authority. Then God will be in control of everything.

    Your interpretation on this particular verse was:
    "the son here it is talking about man and his descendants???"

    [​IMG]

    I did not need to make a comment on this -
    often it is enough for people to read
    to know what is true and what is a lie.

    That is why people who want to twist the truth - wouldn't want to show what is in the Bible
    so they could push their own personal interpretations
    And in the end, would would happen to them?

    was written by Apostle Paul and there was a message of Apostle Peter regarding people who tried to distort Apostle Paul's writings and this is recorded in:

    2 Peter 3:15-16 New International Version (NIV)
    Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
     
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