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Why isn’t the Kaaba mentioned in the Tanakh or bible?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by England my lionheart, Nov 25, 2021.

  1. England my lionheart

    England my lionheart Rockerjahili Rebel
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    So Why isn’t the Kaaba mentioned in the other Abrahmics faiths,before Islam it had 360 idols with the head honcho Hubal but touted as the place Abraham and his son built,why would this not be important to the other Abrahmics faiths?.
     
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  2. Lain

    Lain An Intervallic Time Traveler

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    Because Abraham didn't build it and never was anywhere near it, in my opinion at least.
     
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  3. England my lionheart

    England my lionheart Rockerjahili Rebel
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    I agree,there is no evidence to suggest otherwise but I’m curious as to why 1.7 billion people do believe it.
     
  4. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul One Planet One People Please
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    It may be, but we just not looked to see if that is so.

    Stones are mentioned often in connection with faith.

    Isaiah 28:16 Therefore thus says the Lord God, “Behold, I am the one who has laid as a foundation in Zion, a stone, a tested stone, a precious cornerstone, of a sure foundation: ‘Whoever believes will not be in haste.’

    Who is to say that the black stone was not left as a symbol to such verses?

    As to Islam, could this be a hint?

    1 Peter 2:8 And “A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense.” They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.

    In the Bible, Islam was to become the beast of Revelation, Muhammad and Ali being the Two Witnesses, Muhammad the First Woe.

    So in the future, after we accept that we are one human race on one planet, we may look at these Scriptures in ways that we find these answers.

    Regards Tony
     
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  5. England my lionheart

    England my lionheart Rockerjahili Rebel
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    Not far from me are stones from the Bronze Age and probably long before and meant something to the people of that time,the stones in the Kaaba that are held together by a silver band and exalted by Muslims are not mentioned in other Abrahmics book,one would expect it to be directly mentioned in the other books.
     
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  6. exchemist

    exchemist Veteran Member

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    Because these are all myths. Everyone likes to claim things for themselves, whether it be the English legend claiming Joseph of Arimathea visited Glastonbury, or the Russians claiming to have invented television.
     
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  7. England my lionheart

    England my lionheart Rockerjahili Rebel
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    No argument from me on this,interesting though that Muslims prayed towards Jerusalem then changed towards Mecca.
     
  8. exchemist

    exchemist Veteran Member

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    The Old Testament accounts of Abraham (if such a person existed) are equally legendary, of course. It's a mistake to treat these ancient texts as literal accounts. They should be read like Homer.
     
  9. England my lionheart

    England my lionheart Rockerjahili Rebel
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    At least Homer was interesting,the Kaabah which is surrounded by Muslims on their hajj do take it literally,I find this odd and why the other books don’t mention it,the life of the inquisitive unbeliever lol.
     
  10. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    In the Torah, Ishmael is important yet downplayed. The reality to me, is that a lot was changed in this regard. I don't believe God teaches slavery was ever alright and so don't buy the story that Ismail was born out of a slave/servant to Sarah and Abraham. I believe Ismail is the son of Sarah.

    Thus, something significant was changed with him, and yet still we see twelve princes are promised to come from his offspring. Authority per Quran - the truth - is God is the true king and hence then his representatives rule on his behalf and have true authority.

    Ismail twelve sons weren't princes or authorities, the ones to inherit the authority of Ismail, was Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, etc.

    So there is a purpose to Ismail. And we read also that Moses prays for who God would relieve the knot on his tongue and says "the one who you will send". There is one who God will send that plays a huge role, that is other then the role Moses expected himself or his successor Aaron to play. However, God said he should look to Aaron and seek to manifest the truth and enlighten humans sooner then later and not wait. This means this is someone to come in the future.

    With respect to Ismail, it's obviously one of the sent ones from his offspring.

    So Quran fills the gap and shows that slavery, jealousy of Sarah, etc, has nothing to do with Ishmael and the covenant therein.

    The purpose of the covenant with Ishmael thus has to do with the Kaba and Mohammad (s).
     
  11. mangalavara

    mangalavara Verified Account ✔
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    There is a verse in the Qur'an that mentions that the Jews and Christians are familiar with a place that it calls the 'Forbidden Masjid:'

    We have certainly seen the turning of your face, [O Muḥammad], toward the heaven, and We will surely turn you to a qiblah with which you will be pleased. So turn your face [i.e., yourself] toward al-Masjid al-Ḥarām.[53] And wherever you [believers] are, turn your faces [i.e., yourselves] toward it [in prayer]. Indeed, those who have been given the Scripture [i.e., the Jews and the Christians] well know that it is the truth from their Lord. And Allāh is not unaware of what they do (Qur'an 2.144, Saheeh International).​

    First, if the Christians and Jews of Muhammad's time, who had been given a Scripture before he was given a Scripture, are stated to know that the Forbidden Masjid is 'the truth from their Lord,' the place obviously has to be mentioned in the scripture that Jews and Christians have in common: the Hebrew Bible/Old Testament.

    Second, an important question to ask is, What exactly is a masjid? The Arabic word masjid is cognate with the Nabataean Aramaic word masgedā, meaning 'sanctuary' or 'altar' (Healey 78). This information is relevant because the language of the Qur'an is apparently influenced by Aramaic (Arabic script, by the way, is directly descended from Nabataean script). A masjid could be a sanctuary or even an altar, but I think sanctuary is most likely the case, whatever a sanctuary is. Qur'an 2.125-127, which leads to 2.144 in the narrative, mentions Abraham and Ishmael erecting a house though the verses do not explicitly call it the Forbidden Masjid. If there is any verse in the Qur'an that says the house is the Forbidden Masjid, perhaps someone who knows the verse could provide it in a reply? Until then, I think the house erected by Abraham and Ishmael could have been a structure within the Forbidden Masjid.

    Third, it is interesting that the Hebrew Bible does not mention Abraham and/or Ishmael building a house or a masjid in the Hejaz. I think that if what the Qur'an says about the Forbidden Masjid in relation to Jews and Christians is true, we should be able to find the Forbidden Masjid by making note with the help of the Hebrew Bible of what lands and cities Abraham reached in his journeys when Ishamel was alive. The city that stands out to me is Hebron.

    During the time of the Israelites, Hebron was a city of refuge where a person who accidently killed another person could go to in order to be safe from an avenger. It is also where Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were buried. Interestingly, Qur'an 2.126 mentions Abraham asking God to make the city of the house a secure or safe city where fruits grow. As a safe city during the time of the Israelites, Hebron was a sanctuary in that sense of the term. Its region, the West Bank, has a Mediterranean climate, which is conducive to the growing of various fruits.

    Interestingly, Qur'an 2.132-150, in response to those who say 'be a Jew' or 'be a Christian, says to follow the religion of Abraham, and the verses associate Abraham's religion with Isaac and Jabob. As well, in that passage, facing the Forbidden Masjid is strongly associated with following the religion of Abraham. Facing the Forbidden Masjid during prayer---instead of the Temple Mount in Judaism or the eastern direction in Christianity---demonstrates to the Jews and Christians that they have no argument against those who say they follow Abraham's religion. Hebron, after all, is where Abraham as well as Isaac and Jacob are buried.

    Finally, the aforementioned Qur'anic passage mentions that the purpose of the previous qiblah was to make evident who amongst the original followers of Muhammad would refuse to follow him after he announces the new and second qiblah, namely, the direction of the Forbidden Masjid, which I suspect is Hebron. What if Makkah was the previous qiblah? Perhaps then those who refused the second qiblah had followers who created what we know as the Islamic tradition and wrote the history?

    Works Cited​

    Healey, J. F. The Religion of the Nabataeans: A Conspectus. Brill, 2001. Google Books, google.com/books/edition/The_Religion_of_the_Nabataeans/hbO9CwAAQBAJ?gbpv=1.
     
    #11 mangalavara, Nov 25, 2021
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2021
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  12. England my lionheart

    England my lionheart Rockerjahili Rebel
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    But it’s not referenced in the other books,for such an important place you would expect it to be.
     
  13. exchemist

    exchemist Veteran Member

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    If you agree with me these are all ancient myths, why do you find it odd that different foundational myths, from different peoples, are not consistent with one another?
     
  14. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    Kaba is a place of ritual. It's rituals and understanding their purpose that makes it an important place. In itself, it's not that important place in God's religion. God sent Prophets and Messengers everywhere. So they all had rituals and holy places.
     
    #14 Link, Nov 26, 2021
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2021
  15. England my lionheart

    England my lionheart Rockerjahili Rebel
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    Because of that,I find it odd that that isn’t realised.
     
  16. England my lionheart

    England my lionheart Rockerjahili Rebel
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    Prophets of which there were many were in the Middle East as we identify it,no prophet or messenger anywhere else.
     
  17. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    They are called Shamans or Avatars or something in other places.
     
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