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Why is this world out of control?

Riders

Well-Known Member
Sense Carl Lentz fail from grace at the Hillsong Church because he had affairs behind his wife's back, and there was suspicious money activity at the church with the leadership:

I look for the 3 evils for pastors of megachurches as mentioned in the special about the church: Look out for the 3 gs, the girls, the gold, and the glory.
 

HaEmeth

Truth sets free
[QUOTE="The Hammer, post: 7934619, member: 18546

1. "Who says it's out of control? Everything according to plan."

According to whose plan, may I ask?

For evolutionists, who say life happened by chance, plan is irrelevant - nothing is planned.

For those who believe in a God who created the Universe - the God of the Bible - His plan is very different. He says: "For I know the plans I have for you," declares the Lord, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future." - Jeremiah 29:11, NIV.


So heartwarming a promise but so different from what we see around us.

The god of chaos controls everything around us.


2. How is the archangel Michael, Jesus? [/QUOTE]

Jude 9: "the archangel, Michael" - archangel, occurs in the Bible only in the singular form, suggesting there is only one such angel.

Jesus is linked with the office of archangel. Regarding the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ, 1 Thessalonians 4:16 states: "For the Lord himself will come down from heaven ... with the voice of the archangel" (NIV) - suggesting that Jesus himself is the archangel, Michael.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Why is this world out of control? Have you ever wondered what could be the reason for all the problems we’re experiencing? Pollution, health, the economy, the weather, …. just to name a few.

You may say that humans are to blame. To a degree, I agree. Do you believe that someone could, or is promoting chaos, from behind the scenes? I believe so!

Who controls this world? Many may say that it is God. Which God are we talking about? Is it the God who created everything, false gods or is it the one who really controls this world? This is what I believe.

1 John 5:19 states in the New World Translation
… , but the whole world is lying in [power of the] wicked one.

Who is the wicked one? Please picture what Revelation 12:7-9 describes in the New World Translation.

And war broke out in heaven: Michael (Jesus) and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled but it did not prevail, neither was a place found for them any longer in heaven. So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called DEVIL and SATAN, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.

The real trouble maker is exposed.


During the 2nd Temple Period the Persians occupied Israel. Many of the myths in Christianity are from the Persian religion. The rest are from the other occupying nation, Greek.
And of course Jewish theology as well.
Satan as an enemy of God is also Persian. In the OT Satan and Yahweh work together. Satan is the Angel of Yahweh in one story. He delivers plagues for Yahweh, tortures Job...There is no hurling down in scripture. Those are stories added later.

Revelations

Zoroaster taught that the blessed must wait for this culmination till Frashegird and the 'future body' (Pahlavi 'tan i pasen'), when the earth will give up the bones of the dead (Y 30.7). This general resurrection will be followed by the Last Judgment, which will divide all the righteous from the wicked, both those who have lived until that time and those who have been judged already. Then Airyaman, Yazata of friendship and healing, together with Atar, Fire, will melt all the metal in the mountains, and this will flow in a glowing river over the earth. All mankind must pass through this river, and, as it is said in a Pahlavi text, 'for him who is righteous it will seem like warm milk, and for him who is wicked, it will seem as if he is walking in the • flesh through molten metal' (GBd XXXIV. r 8-r 9). In this great apocalyptic vision Zoroaster perhaps fused, unconsciously, tales of volcanic eruptions and streams of burning lava with his own experience of Iranian ordeals by molten metal; and according to his stern original teaching, strict justice will prevail then, as at each individual j udgment on earth by a fiery ordeal. So at this last ordeal of all the wicked will suffer a second death, and will perish off the face of the earth. The Daevas and legions of darkness will already have been annihilated in a last great battle with the Yazatas; and the river of metal will flow down into hell, slaying Angra Mainyu and burning up the last vestige of wickedness in the universe.

Ahura Mazda and the six Amesha Spentas will then solemnize a lt, spiritual yasna, offering up the last sacrifice (after which death wW be no more), and making a preparation of the mystical 'white haoma', which will confer immortality on the resurrected bodies of all the blessed, who will partake of it. Thereafter men will beome like the Immortals themselves, of one thought, word and deed, unaging, free from sickness, without corruption, forever joyful in the kingdom of God upon earth. For it is in this familiar and beloved world, restored to its original perfection, that, according to Zoroaster, eternity will be passed in bliss, and not in a remote insubstantial Paradise. So the time of Separation is a renewal of the time of Creation, except that no return is prophesied to the original uniqueness of living things. Mountain and valley will give place once more to level plain; but whereas in the beginning there was one plant, one animal, one man, the rich variety and number that have since issued from these will remain forever. Similarly the many divinities who were brought into being by Ahura Mazda will continue to have their separate existences. There is no prophecy of their re-absorption into the Godhead. As a Pahlavi text puts it, after Frashegird 'Ohrmaid and the Amahraspands and all Yazads and men will be together. .. ; every place will resemble a garden in spring, in which

there are all kinds of trees and flowers ... and it will be entirely the creation of Ohrrnazd' (Pahl.Riv.Dd. XLVIII, 99, lOO, l07).


There is no war going on here?

Hebrew Bible in reference to a supernatural figure comes from Numbers 22:22,[7] which describes the Angel of Yahweh confronting Balaam on his donkey:[6] "Balaam's departure aroused the wrath of Elohim, and the Angel of Yahweh stood in the road as a satan against him."[7] In 2 Samuel 24, Yahweh sends the "Angel of Yahweh" to inflict a plague against Israel for three days, killing 70,000 people as punishment for David having taken a census without his approval.[16] 1 Chronicles 21:1 repeats this story,[16] but replaces the "Angel of Yahweh" with an entity referred to as "a satan".[16]

Some passages clearly refer to the satan, without using the word itself.[17] 1 Samuel 2:12 describes the sons of Eli as "sons of Belial";[18] the later usage of this word makes it clearly a synonym for "satan".[18] In 1 Samuel 16:14–23 Yahweh sends a "troubling spirit" to torment King Saul as a mechanism to ingratiate David with the king.[19] In 1 Kings 22:19–25, the prophet Micaiah describes to King Ahab a vision of Yahweh sitting on his throne surrounded by the Host of Heaven.[18] Yahweh asks the Host which of them will lead Ahab astray.[18] A "spirit", whose name is not specified, but who is analogous to the satan, volunteers to be "a Lying Spirit in the mouth of all his Prophets".[18]

Book of Job

The satan appears in the Book of Job, a poetic dialogue set within a prose framework,[20] which may have been written around the time of the Babylonian captivity.[20] In the text, Job is a righteous man favored by Yahweh.[20] Job 1:6–8 describes the "sons of God" (bənê hāʼĕlōhîm) presenting themselves before Yahweh.[20] Yahweh asks one of them, "the satan", where he has been, to which he replies that he has been roaming around the earth.[20] Yahweh asks, "Have you considered My servant Job?"[20] The satan replies by urging Yahweh to let him torture Job, promising that Job will abandon his faith at the first tribulation.[21] Yahweh consents; the satan destroys Job's servants and flocks, yet Job refuses to condemn Yahweh.[21] The first scene repeats itself, with the satan presenting himself to Yahweh alongside the other "sons of God".[22] Yahweh points out Job's continued faithfulness, to which the satan insists that more testing is necessary;[22] Yahweh once again gives him permission to test Job.[22] In the end, Job remains faithful and righteous, and it is implied that the satan is shamed in his defeat.[23]
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
God did not create an individual evil.
He created myriads of intelligent spirit beings, and he created two intelligent human beings, from which millions would come.

.

A story known to be borrowed from the Mesopotamians. These are ancient religious myths. they are not real except as stories. It's actually a fable because stories with talking animals are fables.



Judaism - Myths


Myths

Biblical myths are found mainly in the first 11 chapters of Genesis, the first book of the Bible. They are concerned with the creation of the world and the first man and woman, the origin of the current human condition, the primeval Deluge, the distribution of peoples, and the variation of languages.

The basic stories are derived from the popular lore of the ancient Middle East; parallels can be found in the extant literature of the peoples of the area. The Mesopotamians, for instance, also knew of an earthly paradise such as Eden, and the figure of the cherubim—properly griffins rather than angels—was known to the Canaanites. In the Bible, however, this mythical garden of the gods becomes the scene of man’s fall and the background of a story designed to account for the natural limitations of human life. Similarly, the Babylonians told of the formation of humankind from clay. But, whereas in the pagan tale the first man’s function is to serve as an earthly menial of the gods, in the scriptural version his role is to rule over all other creatures. The story of the Deluge, including the elements of the ark and the dispatch of the raven and dove, appears already in the Babylonian myths of Gilgamesh and Atrahasis. There, however, the hero is eventually made immortal, whereas in the Bible this detail is omitted because, to the Israelite mind, no child of woman could achieve that status. Lastly, while the story of the Tower of Babel was told originally to account for the stepped temples (ziggurats) of Babylonia, to the Hebrew writer its purpose is simply to inculcate the moral lesson that humans should not aspire beyond their assigned station.


Scattered through the Prophets and Holy Writings (the two latter portions of the Hebrew Bible) are allusions to other ancient myths—e.g., to that of a primordial combat between YHWH and a monster variously named Leviathan (Wriggly), Rahab (Braggart), or simply Sir Sea or Dragon. The Babylonians told likewise of a fight between their god Marduk and the monster Tiamat; the Hittites told of a battle between the weather god and the dragon Illuyankas; while a Canaanite poem from Ras Shamra (ancient Ugarit) in northern Syria relates the discomfiture of Sir Sea by the deity Baal and the rout of an opponent named Leviathan. Originally, this myth probably referred to the annual subjugation of the floods.


Legends and other tales


Legends in the Hebrew Scriptures often embellish the accounts of national heroes with standard motifs drawn from popular lore. Thus, the Genesis story of Joseph and Potiphar’s wife recurs substantially (but with other characters) in an Egyptian papyrus of the 13th century BCE. The account of the infant Moses being placed in the bulrushes (in Exodus) has an earlier counterpart in a Babylonian tale about Sargon, king of Akkad (c. 2334–c. 2279 BCE), and is paralleled later in legends associated with the Persian Cyrus and with Tu-Küeh, the fabled founder of the Turkish nation. Jephthah’s rash vow (in Judges), whereby he is committed to sacrifice his daughter, recalls the Classical legend of Idomeneus of Crete, who was similarly compelled to slay his own son. The motif of the letter whereby David engineers the death in battle of Bathsheba’s husband recurs in Homer’s story of Bellerophon. The celebrated judgment of Solomon concerning the child claimed by two contending women is told, albeit with variations of detail, about Buddha, Confucius, and other sages; the story of how Jonah was swallowed by a “great fish” but was subsequently disgorged intact finds a parallel in the Indian tale of the hero Shaktideva, who endured the same experience during his quest for the Golden City. On the other hand, it should be observed that many of the parallels commonly cited from the folklore of indigenous peoples may be mere repetitions of biblical material picked up from Christian missionaries.

The Hebrew Bible also contains a few examples of fables (didactic tales in which animals or plants play human roles). Thus, the serpent in Eden talks to Eve
, and Balaam’s *** not only speaks but also seeks to avoid an angel, unseen by Balaam, that is blocking the road, while trees compete for kingship in the celebrated parable of Jotham in Judges. Finally, in the Book of Job (38:31) there are allusions to star myths concerning the binding of Orion (called “the Fool”) and the “chaining” of the Pleiades.


Contemporary interpretations

The tendency to interpret biblical tales and legends as authentic historical records or as allegories or as the relics of solar, lunar, and astral myths is now a thing of the past.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Yes, haSatan is the 'god' of this world of badness according to 2 Corinthians 4:4
If haSatan was destroyed right away in Eden then the issue of who governs best would not be settled.
The passing of time was needed so we would have the opportunity to be born and think who we would like as Sovereign over us.
Since it is haSatan who misleads the world (Revelation 12:12,9) and Not YHWH, then we will find that YHWH will have Jesus to rid the Earth of the wicked according to Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-15
I'm not polytheistic as a belief of mine, but neither can I believe there's not.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
I see no need to postulate a magic demon who whispers in our ear to make us do bad things if we're in agreement that we do bad things by our nature all on our own.
As for our nature reaching some sinful "peak," I don't agree. If anything we've morally improved by leaps and bounds if we're comparing today to, say, the first century CE.

I don't think of a demon (magic or otherwise whispering in one's ear) but as Jesus was offered temptation so we see temptation today being advertised to do wrong. Ads often like eye candy to ignore Bible standards.
Lots of people think they are morally improved but often improved by using their own standards over Bible standards.
If everyone lived by the Golden Rule and Jesus' New commandment of John 13:34-35 the world would be morally improved.
Even without a 'sinful peak' the world hates what Jesus' teaches - Matthew 10:22; Matthew 24:9; Luke 21:17.
At Jesus' coming Glory Time (Matthew 25:31-34,37) the figurative ' goats ' will outnumber the figurative ' sheep '.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
I don't think of a demon (magic or otherwise whispering in one's ear) but as Jesus was offered temptation so we see temptation today being advertised to do wrong. Ads often like eye candy to ignore Bible standards.

Ads are created by humans, not magical spirit beings.

Lots of people think they are morally improved but often improved by using their own standards over Bible standards.

The Bible is a mixed bag, morally speaking. It contains some good advice (love one another) and some terrible, atrocious advice (go massacre and enslave that other group of people, execute people for blasphemy, slaves obey your masters, etc.).

I'm thankful we've largely moved past the latter set of morals.

If everyone lived by the Golden Rule and Jesus' New commandment of John 13:34-35 the world would be morally improved.
Even without a 'sinful peak' the world hates what Jesus' teaches - Matthew 10:22; Matthew 24:9; Luke 21:17.
At Jesus' coming Glory Time (Matthew 25:31-34,37) the figurative ' goats ' will outnumber the figurative ' sheep '.

The people you consider goats have always outnumbered the people you consider sheep, so that doesn't really mean anything. :shrug:
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Ads are created by humans, not magical spirit beings.
The Bible is a mixed bag, morally speaking. It contains some good advice (love one another) and some terrible, atrocious advice (go massacre and enslave that other group of people, execute people for blasphemy, slaves obey your masters, etc.).
I'm thankful we've largely moved past the latter set of morals.
The people you consider goats have always outnumbered the people you consider sheep, so that doesn't really mean anything. :shrug:

Exactly, ads are designed by humans and humans are influenced by many things good and bad.
The God of the Bible only dealt with one nation the nation of national fleshly Israel.
Only for the sake of righteousness did God involve himself where Israel was concerned.
Slavery was common in ancient Israel times and for Israel it was regulated against abuse.
I don't see that we have moved past the Golden Rule or Leviticus 19:18.
Nor do I see that we have moved past Jesus' New commandment of John 13:34-35 to have the same self-sacrificing love for others as Jesus has. In other words, to now love neighbor MORE than self, more than the Golden Rule.
Sure, it means that the 'goats' go against the 'sheep'.
Without coming divine involvement by Christ Jesus the 'goat-like' people would get rid of all the 'sheep'.
The 'sword-like executional words from Jesus' mouth ' will rid the earth of people who would bring ruin to the earth either literal ruin or moral ruin - Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-15
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Sense Carl Lentz fail from grace at the Hillsong Church because he had affairs behind his wife's back, and there was suspicious money activity at the church with the leadership:
I look for the 3 evils for pastors of megachurches as mentioned in the special about the church: Look out for the 3 gs, the girls, the gold, and the glory.
So, how true Jesus words of Matthew 7:21-23 prove to be.
MANY would call Jesus as Lord but prove false to him.
 

idea

Question Everything
Why is this world out of control?

I do not think the world is out of control. No more now than always.

It seems some religious people have more stress than others, are fretting and hand-ringing.

Spirituality done right brings peace, not fear mongering.

I very much respect Buddhism for their peaceful non-attachment teachings.

A Christian family - friends growing up - lived their entire life in fear, food storage, guns, scared and isolated. The world did not end, these friends died without seeing any actual horror, it was all in their mind.

Others lived without fear "eat drink and be merry", both examples lived long lives haha whose to say which life held more joy.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
I don’t think a God who can lose control of a planet deserves worship.

Letting mankind reproduce and freely choose who each one would like as Sovereign over him is Not loss of control.
Remember a BIG issues was raised in Eden as to who could govern best.
Adam and Eve chose Satan to govern. Today's world has gone along with their choice.
Starting with their son Abel he chose God as the best way in governing.

When I was in school the teacher has some students that would not listen, and to me that did not mean the teacher lost control of the classroom but just needed to either get help for the student rebel or have him permanently removed.

God allowing for the passing of time has allowed time for us to be born, otherwise we would not be here.
The God of the Bible as our Teacher/Principal will only expel and rid the Earth of those who will bring ruin to Earth.
 

idea

Question Everything
Letting mankind reproduce and freely choose who each one would like as Sovereign over him is Not loss of control.
Remember a BIG issues was raised in Eden as to who could govern best.
Adam and Eve chose Satan to govern. Today's world has gone along with their choice.
Starting with their son Abel he chose God as the best way in governing.

When I was in school the teacher has some students that would not listen, and to me that did not mean the teacher lost control of the classroom but just needed to either get help for the student rebel or have him permanently removed.

God allowing for the passing of time has allowed time for us to be born, otherwise we would not be here.
The God of the Bible as our Teacher/Principal will only expel and rid the Earth of those who will bring ruin to Earth.

This is all so foreign. Like saying a dictator in another country that we never met would like us to pay taxes? Listen? To what? Foreign language, illogical, just another political party. We all do what is best for our family. Some teachers are better than others. No religion has shown itself to provide anything useful, true, or moral. Its all dictators, power- hungry fear mongers who seem delusional - god-complex - such a strange mental illness.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Why is this world out of control? Have you ever wondered what could be the reason for all the problems we’re experiencing? Pollution, health, the economy, the weather, …. just to name a few.

You may say that humans are to blame. To a degree, I agree. Do you believe that someone could, or is promoting chaos, from behind the scenes? I believe so!

Who controls this world? Many may say that it is God. Which God are we talking about? Is it the God who created everything, false gods or is it the one who really controls this world? This is what I believe.

1 John 5:19 states in the New World Translation
… , but the whole world is lying in [power of the] wicked one.

Who is the wicked one? Please picture what Revelation 12:7-9 describes in the New World Translation.

And war broke out in heaven: Michael (Jesus) and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled but it did not prevail, neither was a place found for them any longer in heaven. So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called DEVIL and SATAN, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.

The real trouble maker is exposed.

When was the world ever in control?
Just a bunch of humans going about doing whatever they feel is right.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Yes, I can agree with counter examples.
Sure there are medical advances and also nuclear advances.
Masks, vaccines would Not help in the advent of nuclear run afoul.
Are the world's religions more in control today in trying to throne and dethrone kings (presidents, world political leaders) or rather less in control.
How much longer before the political surprisingly turns on the religious world __________
The second part of what you said is not clear to me.
What is see is merely growth in both creative and destructive abilities of humans. So both the magnitude of threats and possibilities of growth and creativity have increased. So actually the world has come under the control of humanity more and more over the centuries. What we do with this power and control rests, as ever with every generation.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
Exactly, ads are designed by humans and humans are influenced by many things good and bad.
The God of the Bible only dealt with one nation the nation of national fleshly Israel.
Only for the sake of righteousness did God involve himself where Israel was concerned.
Slavery was common in ancient Israel times and for Israel it was regulated against abuse.

Slavery itself is abuse. It is owning another human being as property. That it was common back then is irrelevant if these commands come from an omniscient omnipotent deity. The Bible God asked the Israelites to abstain from all kinds of things that were common back then - eating pork, worshipping multiple gods, working on Saturdays. If he can manage that, he can manage to tell his team not to own other human beings as property.

Without coming divine involvement by Christ Jesus the 'goat-like' people would get rid of all the 'sheep'.

There is simply no evidence of that in most parts of the world anymore. Perhaps in North Korea, where they kill anyone, Christian or not, who openly opposes their regime. That would include me too, by the way. In most of the world though, you are in no risk of being killed simply for being a Witness.

The 'sword-like executional words from Jesus' mouth ' will rid the earth of people who would bring ruin to the earth either literal ruin or moral ruin - Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-15

So you believe it's wrong for you to be killed simply for your beliefs and values, but you believe it's fine for Jesus to kill all the people who don't share your beliefs and values? That is deeply disturbing.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
I'm sorry you were misled by those individuals.
Have you really thought this through? It does not look that way.
So you are saying God should not have created anyone with free will. So that no one should have the potential to decide against him?

God did not create an individual evil.
He created myriads of intelligent spirit beings, and he created two intelligent human beings, from which millions would come.

To ask, "Why did God create [the Devil] at all?", indicates a lack of understanding.
Right now I can only think of at least two reasons why this would happen. Either because one is not thinking clearly, or they are just saying things simply for the purpose of opposing.

When we think on it... clearly. God did not create the Devil.
One of the myriads of angels God created, decided to oppose God. Thus Satan the Devil was born... at that point. Satan means opposer. Devil means slanderer.
Why? For the same reason humans do.

Consider the King of Tyre.
(Ezekiel 28:15-17) 15You were faultless in your ways from the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you. .... 17Your heart became haughty because of your beauty. You corrupted your wisdom because of your own glorious splendor. I will throw you down to the earth. I will make you a spectacle before kings.

Simply. God created angels?
Did God think... "Hmm. I wonder what this one will be like..." Like the mother that is about to give birth, and wonders... So she goes to the scientist, and says... "Could you alter this one's genes, so that he does not grow up to rob a bank. or rape someone's daughter, or mother."
Yeah. Only babies that will never do wrong.
That's not even possible.

Why not?
One can be influenced to do wrong.
One can start off good, and turn out bad.

Do you see how unreasonable it is then, to think that God would sit down, and determine out of the myriad of angels, which angel would not sin, and which would, before creating them?
Do you see how those who believe the religious people that say God knew this angel would rebel before he created them, have been thoroughly misled?

I hope so.
Someone could decide to rob a bank today, and change his mind tomorrow. They could become a totally different person, so that their "buddies" do not even "know" that person... and vica versa.

Freedom of choice, or free will, means just that - God allowing you to exercise your free will... regardless of your decision, and the outcome.
Why though, allow your actions to affect others?
Because nothing - absolutely nothing - can prevent God from carrying out his will.
If man ruins the earth... God will restore it.
If man kills those God loves... God will restore their life.
Moreover, nothing - no action at all - can prevent God from rewarding those who show they love him, and are on his side, with the things God has in store for them... with endless life.

That does not include the ridiculers.
Their life ends. No lost on God's part. No lost on the part of those whom the apostle Paul stated these words concerning.
(Romans 8:18) 18 For I consider that the sufferings of the present time do not amount to anything in comparison with the glory that is going to be revealed in us.

These have lost nothing.
(Matthew 19:27-29) 27 Then Peter said in reply: “Look! We have left all things and followed you; what, then, will there be for us?28 Jesus said to them: “Truly I say to you, in the re-creation, when the Son of man sits down on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will sit on 12 thrones, judging the 12 tribes of Israel. 29And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands for the sake of my name will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit everlasting life.
You believe God created these spirit beings that later turned evil. Did God that they would turn evil? If he did, was that part of his plan all along? You believe in God and Satan. Of course, you think your interpretation is reasonable.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Great story. Well, not really.
I won't be holding my breath.
Yes, the various Christian interpretations of that story is what they have been taught to believe, and lots of them do believe that it is true. Great story for them. But really. For me, there's too many improbable and mythological things going on to be real.
 
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