Why is this world out of control?

[CG Didymus]

Many of the myths in Christianity are from the Persian religion. The rest are from the other occupying nation, Greek.
And of course Jewish theology as well.
Satan as an enemy of God is also Persian. In the OT Satan and Yahweh work together. Satan is the Angel of Yahweh in one story. He delivers plagues for Yahweh, tortures Job...There is no hurling down in scripture. Those are stories added later.

A story known to be borrowed from the Mesopotamians. These are ancient religious myths. they are not real except as stories.

Strange that Christians discount the myths of other people, but they believe theirs to be true.

 

[nPeace]

You believe God created these spirit beings that later turned evil. Did God that they would turn evil? If he did, was that part of his plan all along?

Case of deliberate deafness CG?

Did God know that they would turn evil?
The Bible does not say God exercised his foreknowledge regarding choices the angels, and subsequently people, would make.
The account regarding Abraham is a good example. Genesis 22:12

If he did, was that part of his plan all along?
The Bible does not say God foreknew. Nor does it say God was involved in any sinister plan.

You believe in God and Satan. Of course, you think your interpretation is reasonable.

Has nothing to do with interpretation.
How does reasonableness factors in here? You either believe what is there, or you don't. That's reasonable. One can't alter it to suit themselves.

I heard of someone who ripped a page out the Bible, because it clearly stated what he didn't want to see.
People don't need to do that. They can simply give their Bible to someone who would use it, and declare themselves "done with that".

This so called interpreting people bring up, is nothing more than twisting the scriptures.
2 Peter 3:16 - However, some things in them are hard to understand, and these things the ignorant and unstable are twisting, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

It's just another way of saying. "You cannot know the truth from scripture, nor get a clear understanding of the Bible. So forget about it."
That doesn't look different to any tactic Satan has ever pulled.

Some don't like to admit this is the case either.
2 Timothy 4:3 - For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the wholesome teaching, but according to their own desires, they will surround themselves with teachers to have their ears tickled.

Is that you? Or are you tickling your own ears?
Why are we talking about this again though. We both know where we stand.
You have a mission though... don't you?

 

[nPeace]

Slavery itself is abuse. It is owning another human being as property. That it was common back then is irrelevant if these commands come from an omniscient omnipotent deity. The Bible God asked the Israelites to abstain from all kinds of things that were common back then - eating pork, worshipping multiple gods, working on Saturdays. If he can manage that, he can manage to tell his team not to own other human beings as property.

He did.

However, he tolerated a lot of things for a time.
This is due to his reasonableness - 1) understanding the human nature, and 2) knowing that wiping out the entire nation for disobeying would not result in him accomplishing his will.

Spoiler

(Psalms 103:10) 10 He has not dealt with us according to our sins, Nor has he repaid us what our errors deserve.

(Ezra 9:13-14) 13 And after all that has come upon us for our bad deeds and our great guilt - for you, O our God, have not dealt with us according to our error, and you have allowed those of us here to escape - 14 are we to break your commandments again and form marriage alliances with the peoples who practice these detestable things? Would you not become so angry with us that you would completely destroy us, leaving no remnant or survivor?

(Nehemiah 9:31) 31 And in your great mercy, you did not exterminate them or abandon them, for you are a compassionate and merciful God.

(Romans 9:22) 22 What, then, if God had the will to demonstrate his wrath and to make his power known, and he tolerated with much patience vessels of wrath made fit for destruction?

(Acts of the Apostles 17:30) . . .God has overlooked the times of such ignorance; but now he is declaring to all people everywhere that they should repent.

We do have proof of God's love, mercy, justice, reasonableness, etc.
Many people though, don't want to see those. They look for things of which to find fault.

It remains me of those people who can't stand those who have a clean record, because they feel condemned by that record, but rather than try to make adjustments in their life, to imitate that one, they try to dig up dirt on that person, or sully their clean record.

It does show, that yes, there is a satanic influence on this world - clearly against God.

So you believe it's wrong for you to be killed simply for your beliefs and values, but you believe it's fine for Jesus to kill all the people who don't share your beliefs and values? That is deeply disturbing.

I'd be surprised if that's what he believes or said.

Jesus did say, anyone in opposition to his father were under judgement of death... and that would include him, and me - all people... in opposition to God. Not people who share his beliefs.

One can only escape that judgment by doing one thing.
(John 3:36)
So that involves what God and Jesus commands.

 

[Left Coast]

He did.

No, he didn't. Not a single verse you posted indicates he did. In fact he literally commanded slavery in the Bible. Is slavery wrong?

It does show, that yes, there is a satanic influence on this world - clearly against God.

I disagree. People enslave each other just fine on their own. Which is further evidence that the Bible is of human origin.

I'd be surprised if that's what he believes or said.

Jesus did say, anyone in opposition to his father were under judgement of death... and that would include him, and me - all people... in opposition to God. Not people who share his beliefs.

One can only escape that judgment by doing one thing.
(John 3:36)
So that involves what God and Jesus commands.

So again...you believe it's wrong for you to be killed for your beliefs, but not for me to be killed for mine. There's no need to make euphemism out of it for it to be more palatable.

 

[nPeace]

No, he didn't. Not a single verse you posted indicates he did. In fact he literally commanded slavery in the Bible. Is slavery wrong?

You are not talking to an atheist, Left.
People didn't call JWs "Bible Students" for nothing.

Let's start at the top.

Slavery itself is abuse.

The claim that slavery itself is abuse, is false.
A slave in ancient times understood that he or she was serving, or offering a service, in return for their life - a life plagued by poverty... which leads to death.
It's comparable to what we do today, when we slave for the dollar, to feed ourselves and family.
Some of us don't like it - being forced to get out of bed at a particular time, to get on the job at a particular time, and in many cases, to do what we don't even like doing.

You might say, it's a choice. What kind of a choice? What's the difference?
(Deuteronomy 15:12-18) 12 ...you should set him free. 13 And if you should set him free, do not send him away empty-handed. 16 “But if he says to you, ‘I will not go out from your company!’ because he loves you and your household, since he has been happy while with you, 17 you should then take an awl and put it through his ear into the door, and he will become your slave for life. You should do the same with your slave girl. 18 Do not consider it a hardship when you set him free and he leaves you, because his service to you for six years was worth twice as much as that of a hired worker, and Jehovah your God has blessed you in everything that was done.

Slavery is not a bad thing in itself. It involved... in this case, a service to one who would dictate what another's job - day's activities involved.
It was even used to apply to persons who considered one as of greater honor - Genesis 44:27; Genesis 44:30; Genesis 44:32 ...even a king. 2 Samuel 14:16
One considered themselves a slave simply because of being humble and submissive.
(1 Samuel 25:40-41) 40 So David’s servants came to Abigail at Carmel and said to her: “David has sent us to you to take you as his wife.” 41 She immediately rose up and bowed with her face to the ground and said: “Here is your slave as a servant to wash the feet of the servants of my lord.. . .

It is the way slaves are dealt with, that would make it bad.

To show that slavery of the sort described earlier, continues today, but only under a different term, perhaps because of how it came to be viewed, and the need to distinguish between cruel slavery, and proper slavery...
In the first century, Paul wrote...
(1 Timothy 6:1-2) 1 Let those who are under the yoke of slavery keep on considering their owners worthy of full honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may never be spoken of injuriously. 2 Moreover, let those having believing owners not be disrespectful to them because they are brothers. Rather, they should serve more readily, because those receiving the benefit of their good service are believers and beloved.. . .

This isn't describing anything different to, what we know as "working for the boss".
All one has to do, is trace the history. Slave - Owner; Servant - Owner/Master/Mistress; Laborer/Worker - Boss/Employer... There are other names, but all the same.

I made a thread on this, with all the scriptures, and information. Feel free to go through it.
However, if you have questions, or you have objections, feel free to post those.

It is owning another human being as property.

There are quite a lot of people owned as property, who are quite happy with their master, and slaving for them.
Jesus and his apostles
(Matthew 20:25-28) 25 But Jesus called them to him and said: “You know that the rulers of the nations lord it over them and the great men wield authority over them. 26 This must not be the way among you; but whoever wants to become great among you must be your minister, 27 and whoever wants to be first among you must be your slave. 28 Just as the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister . . .

Slaving for another, or being a slave of another, in most cases, is simply ministering to, or serving another.
It can be enjoyable, willing servitude, or not.
Here, it's enjoyable. None of God's people complain about being his property. In fact, they made themselves such, because of gratitude for what he has done, is doing, and yet will do.

Are you aware that there are people who actually offer to serve others, out of gratitude, because they owe the person their life, for what that person did for them? Yes. They consider themselves owned.
Bad? No.

Copied from the other thread...
QUOTE
For example...
The apostle Paul made this expression... "...but through love slave for one another". Galatians 5:13
He explained and demonstrated what that meant.
"For though I am free from all people, I have made myself the slave to all, so that I may gain as many people as possible. . ." (1 Corinthians 9:19)
Yes, a person can be a willing slave, as was the case, past, present, and will be in the future, as mentioned in the OP.
Jesus too, set the example in willingly serving others. (Matthew 20:28; Philippians 2:7)

Have you ever offered to carry someone's stuff for them; move things for them...
That's commendable. A willingness to slave for others, is actually a good thing.
This is the slavery, that is promoted by God, and his servants.
UNQUOTE

Evidently, this is one of those arguments atheists tend to put forth, to suggest that their subjective opinion is somehow a superior universal moral standard.
You don't want to go there again, do you?
Is there a universal moral standard, and who sets it? I say God. What say you?

You can take it up with me from this post, regarding slavery, if you like.

 

[nPeace]

That it was common back then is irrelevant if these commands come from an omniscient omnipotent deity.

Not really.
A lot of things were common back then, which God allowed because of the "culture".
For example, while God could have fought every battle against enemy nations, singlehandedly, he allowed, and even commanded his people to fight.

They had the 'guts'. They were of a nation familiar with violence, so that they would chop off heads and not bat an eye.
God allowed that for its time, and purpose.

He also allowed a man to have more than one wife, even though he was against it, and commanded otherwise. He tolerated it for a time.

You see, God does not work like we do - panicky, and haphazardly.
He works according to a timetable, and scheduled time for accomplishing his purpose, and will.
So, until the Messiah, he simply put a tutor in place.
(Galatians 3:23-25) 23 However, before the faith arrived, we were being guarded under law, being delivered up together into custody, looking to the faith that was destined to be revealed. 24 Consequently the Law has become our tutor leading to Christ, that we might be declared righteous due to faith. 25 But now that the faith has arrived, we are no longer under a tutor.

That tutor would allow a remnant to continue until the Messiah arrived.
Once the Messiah arrives, the tutor would leave. Thus there would be adjustments, as these are superior - the real deal, actually.
Explaining this to you would require a new thread, and lots of pages, but if you want, I can do it.

The point is, what is common back then among his people, was given consideration, because the light had not appeared as yet.
(John 1:9) The true light that gives light to every sort of man was about to come into the world.
(John 3:19) Now this is the basis for judgment: that the light has come into the world. . .

This is called being reasonable, and considerate.
Once the light has shone forth though, that's a different ball game.

The Bible God asked the Israelites to abstain from all kinds of things that were common back then - eating pork, worshipping multiple gods, working on Saturdays.
If he can manage that, he can manage to tell his team not to own other human beings as property.

As I said before, he did.
(Leviticus 25:42) For they are my slaves whom I brought out of the land of Egypt. They should not sell themselves the way a slave is sold.

While God didn't tell them to stop that practice right that instance, he did give guidelines on how they practice slavery, during the time he allowed it.
So from the get go of him adopting the nation, God said this.
(Exodus 21:1-6) 1 “These are the judicial decisions that you are to convey to them: 2 “If you buy a Hebrew slave, he will serve as a slave for six years, but in the seventh year, he will be set free without paying anything.

In some cases, that slave wanted to stay, and not leave.
That refutes your argument, you see... along with all I said before.
5 But if the slave should insist and say, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my sons; I do not want to be set free,’ 6 his master must bring him before the true God. Then he will bring him up against the door or the doorpost, and his master will pierce his ear through with an awl, and he will be his slave for life.

The slave wanted to be property. He willingly wanted to serve his master for life.
Obviously, he was treated well, and more than likely felt indebted to his master for caring for him, in his destitute times.

Notice, God did not say, "Stop it now."
Considering 1) this nation is a nation of stiff-necked people; 2) the practice in itself is not bad, but has benefits; and 3) it is the nation through whom the Messiah would come, God applied reasonableness.

Benefits? You ask. How can it be good?
(Leviticus 25:39-43) 39 “‘If your brother who lives nearby becomes poor and he has to sell himself to you, you must not force him to do slave labor. 40 He should be treated like a hired worker, like a settler. He should serve with you until the Jubilee year. 41 Then he will leave you, he and his children with him, and return to his family. He should return to the property of his forefathers. 42 For they are my slaves whom I brought out of the land of Egypt. They should not sell themselves the way a slave is sold. 43 You must not treat him cruelly, and you must be in fear of your God.

(Deuteronomy 15:12-15) 12 “If one of your brothers, a Hebrew man or woman, is sold to you and has served you for six years, then in the seventh year you should set him free. 13 And if you should set him free, do not send him away empty-handed. 14 You should supply him generously with something from your flock, your threshing floor, and your press for oil and wine. Just as Jehovah your God has blessed you, you should give to him. 15 Remember that you became a slave in the land of Egypt and that Jehovah your God redeemed you. That is why I am commanding you to do this today.

Have you ever made a job contract, to work with X firm for X years?
Hopefully you see how this is as it is today. No difference.

The word slave is actually written on that image.
That's how they feel, but in reality, that's what it is.

However, God did not restrict the Israelites from enslaving those of the nations around.
(Leviticus 25:44-46) 44 Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you, from them you may buy a male or a female slave. 45 Also from the sons of the foreign settlers who are residing with you, from them and from their families that are born to them in your land you may buy slaves, and they will become your possession. 46 You may pass them on as an inheritance to your sons after you to inherit as a permanent possession. You may use them as workers, but you must not subject your Israelite brothers to cruel treatment.

Did God command his people to enslave those ones?
No. God told them where they were not allowed to take slaves from, and where they were allowed do take them from.
God never commanded his people to take slaves.
He regulated the practice, by stating limits.

It's like a fisherman going about his business of fishing.
The government might say to the fisherman, "You can fish in these waters. That's where you can take your fish, but you should not fish in those waters."
The government did not command the fisherman to fish.
It is the fisherman's practice.

The Israelites had the practice of keeping slaves.
God simply told them where those slave are allowed to be taken from.
He didn't command them to do so.
That was the Israelites' decision.

This was how they dealt with the enemy nations around them.
All other nations were their brothers - Ammon, Moab, etc.
Again, you can read the scriptures I posted in the thread on slavery, and why their dealing with the nations in this way was not condemned.

Off topic.
I notice that RF's search engine isn't working properly, as previous. Are you guys working on it?

I disagree. People enslave each other just fine on their own. Which is further evidence that the Bible is of human origin..

The fact that people try to sully those who have a clean record, because they feel condemned by that record, and so try to dig up dirt on that person, shows that yes, there is a satanic influence on this world - clearly against God.

So again...you believe it's wrong for you to be killed for your beliefs, but not for me to be killed for mine. There's no need to make euphemism out of it for it to be more palatable.

No. I believe it's right for me to be killed for my lack of faith in God... by God.
Are you listening to what I say?

I don't have the right to kill anyone for their beliefs or lack of, nor do you.
God has that right. As the source of life - the creator - the one responsible for planet earth. God has the right to decides who gets to live on it.

That's what I believe.
Let's not talk past each other, or just listen to ourselves.

 

[Bird123]

Why is this world out of control? Have you ever wondered what could be the reason for all the problems we’re experiencing? Pollution, health, the economy, the weather, …. just to name a few.

You may say that humans are to blame. To a degree, I agree. Do you believe that someone could, or is promoting chaos, from behind the scenes? I believe so!

Who controls this world? Many may say that it is God. Which God are we talking about? Is it the God who created everything, false gods or is it the one who really controls this world? This is what I believe.

1 John 5:19 states in the New World Translation
… , but the whole world is lying in [power of the] wicked one.

Who is the wicked one? Please picture what Revelation 12:7-9 describes in the New World Translation.

And war broke out in heaven: Michael (Jesus) and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled but it did not prevail, neither was a place found for them any longer in heaven. So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called DEVIL and SATAN, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.

The real trouble maker is exposed.

Look closer!! There is METHOD to the madness!!
More knowledge exists beyond the surface and beyond the religious stories so many believe so much!!

Blame is one of the petty things mankind holds so dear. Creating a religious figure to Blame everything on will do no good. Further, expecting God to come down and solve all your problems for you would defeat the system God has for us and this world.

Problems are meant to be solved before they go away. Perhaps, we all need to strengthen our resolve and work harder toward resolution.

How many problems would simply disappear if people didn't value those things mankind holds so dear? If it were only about Unconditional Love and Kindness, It would not take much effort to fix the rest. Mankind already has the science to fix it all. The only thing lacking is the will and the goal to do just that.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[URAVIP2ME]

This is all so foreign. Like saying a dictator in another country that we never met would like us to pay taxes? Listen? To what? Foreign language, illogical, just another political party. We all do what is best for our family. Some teachers are better than others. No religion has shown itself to provide anything useful, true, or moral. Its all dictators, power- hungry fear mongers who seem delusional - god-complex - such a strange mental illness.

The God of the Bible is a Benevolent Benefactor.
God forces No one to worship Him, thus Not a dictator. We're all free to make up our own minds.

Let's say Adam set up a BIG business for everyone, but Adam deliberately bankrupted the business.
Everyone was put out of work but thankfully there was a someone very generous who bailed out the bankrupted business and put all the people back to work. The God of the Bible is that generous someone.
All the good that Adam lost for us the God of the Bible through Jesus will restore for us.

The God of the Bible invites all of us to pray to Him for Jesus to come ! - Rev. 22:20
For Jesus to come and bring ' healing ' to earth's nations - Revelation 22:2
Healing to the point that No one will say, " I am sick....." - Isaiah 33:24
Happy-and-healthy healing for Earth and its people as described in Isaiah 35th chapter.
Thus, Not only physical health but also mental health.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The second part of what you said is not clear to me.
What is see is merely growth in both creative and destructive abilities of humans. So both the magnitude of threats and possibilities of growth and creativity have increased. So actually the world has come under the control of humanity more and more over the centuries. What we do with this power and control rests, as ever with every generation.

Even in the religious sectors we see some areas of growth while other areas religion is drying up spiritually.
Most clergy promote human ideas outside of the Bible often backing political ideas.
Religion has often tried to meddle with the political to throne or de-throne kings / political leaders.
Something will cause the political to turn on the religious world.
So, when the powers in charge are saying, " Peace and Security...." that is the precursor to the coming great tribulation of Revelation 7:14,9; 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3.
With backing the United Nations can be strengthened and prove to be God's modern-day arm of the law to go against the corrupted religious world.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

You believe God created these spirit beings that later turned evil. Did God that they would turn evil? If he did, was that part of his plan all along? You believe in God and Satan. Of course, you think your interpretation is reasonable.

ALL intelligent creation are created with free-will choices.
Satan and Adam made their own rebellious choice - please see James 1:13-15
So, No it was Not God's choice that they turn evil, but their own free-will choice.
God's purpose is to restore Eden to be a beautiful paradisical Earth for righteous humanity.
We are all invited to pray to God for Jesus to come ! - Rev. 22:20
Come and bring ' healing ' to earth's nations.- Revelation 22:2
Healing to the point that No one will say, " I am sick....." - Isaiah 33:24
Healing for Earth and its people as described in Isaiah 35th chapter.
Healing to the point that even ' enemy death ' will be No more on Earth - 1 Corinthians 15:26; Isaiah 25:8

 

[idea]

The God of the Bible is a Benevolent Benefactor.
God forces No one to worship Him, thus Not a dictator. We're all free to make up our own minds.

Let's say Adam set up a BIG business for everyone, but Adam deliberately bankrupted the business.
Everyone was put out of work but thankfully there was a someone very generous who bailed out the bankrupted business and put all the people back to work. The God of the Bible is that generous someone.
All the good that Adam lost for us the God of the Bible through Jesus will restore for us.

The God of the Bible invites all of us to pray to Him for Jesus to come ! - Rev. 22:20
For Jesus to come and bring ' healing ' to earth's nations - Revelation 22:2
Healing to the point that No one will say, " I am sick....." - Isaiah 33:24
Happy-and-healthy healing for Earth and its people as described in Isaiah 35th chapter.
Thus, Not only physical health but also mental health.

The god of the Bible is generous to mostly white English speaking people, while ignoring India, China, ignoring the largest population centers. Kind of like Santa only delivers presents to some privileged children *not good children*

How you see Santa, and how you see other religious beliefs, I see the Bible and Christians. A strange foreign concept.

 

[Left Coast]

You are not talking to an atheist, Left.
People didn't call JWs "Bible Students" for nothing.

In my experience, most people who claim to be avid studiers of the Bible know much less than they think they do.

Let's start at the top.

The claim that slavery itself is abuse, is false

.

If that's your opinion, then I (and every atheist I know) have higher moral standards than your god. Thank you for conceding so early!

A slave in ancient times understood that he or she was serving, or offering a service, in return for their life - a life plagued by poverty... which leads to death

.
It's comparable to what we do today, when we slave for the dollar, to feed ourselves and family.

Oh give me a break. Modern employment is not slavery. Modern employees are not the property of their employers. Modern employees are paid. Modern employees can leave their jobs and find other employment with relative ease.
Modern employees have legal rights that far exceed what slaves had in ancient Israel. Pretending they are equivalent is laughably silly. You're gonna have to do better than that.

Slavery is not a bad thing in itself.

Again, thank you for so plainly admitting what low moral standards your god has. I'll pass though, thanks. We're vastly better off in modern society where we've outlawed such barbarism.

It is the way slaves are dealt with, that would make it bad

.

Oh, alright. Then be my slave. It's not a bad life, right? I'll treat you well!

Cmon, be my property. Put your money where your mouth is. Literally. Because all you own will become mine.

To show that slavery of the sort described earlier, continues today, but only under a different term,

Today we call slavery human trafficking. That's about the closest modern term.

perhaps because of how it came to be viewed, and the need to distinguish between cruel slavery, and proper slavery...
In the first century, Paul wrote...
(1 Timothy 6:1-2)

1 Let those who are under the yoke of slavery keep on considering their owners worthy of full honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may never be spoken of injuriously. 2 Moreover, let those having believing owners not be disrespectful to them because they are brothers. Rather, they should serve more readily, because those receiving the benefit of their good service are believers and beloved.. . .

This isn't describing anything different to, what we know as "working for the boss".

Again, that's laughably false. I am not the property of my employer. I am paid for my work. I have legal rights a slave does not.

For example, it was acceptable in ancient Israel to beat one's slaves. In fact, as long as they didn't die immediately and lived for a day or two after sustaining their injuries, masters were not punished. Why? Because the slave was the property of their owner. (Exodus 21:20-21).

Do you think my boss could do that to me today?

Let's give up the silliness of comparing modern employment to slavery. You must know it's absurd. What you're defending is barbaric.

All one has to do, is trace the history. Slave - Owner; Servant - Owner/Master/Mistress; Laborer/Worker - Boss/Employer... There are other names, but all the same.

The only way you could believe those things are "the same" is if you have no idea what the history is of slavery and the development of modern employment. Please take your own advice and do some research on how things changed as slavery was slowly abolished in the West.

I made a thread on this, with all the scriptures, and information. Feel free to go through it.
However, if you have questions, or you have objections, feel free to post those.

We'll see how you fare in this thread. So far it isn't looking good.

There are quite a lot of people owned as property, who are quite happy with their master, and slaving for them.

So again...come be my slave.

Slaving for another, or being a slave of another, in most cases, is simply ministering to, or serving another.
It can be enjoyable, willing servitude, or not.

Again, this displays that you simply don't know what you're talking about. Most slaves do not choose slavery. They are either born into it or are captured as prisoners of war/slave trading.

Have you ever offered to carry someone's stuff for them; move things for them...
That's commendable. A willingness to slave for others, is actually a good thing.
This is the slavery, that is promoted by God, and his servants.

Me doing you a favor is not beconing your slave. Again, I am genuinely not sure if you're actually serious about this. You think when someone helps you out to your car with your groceries, they're your "slave?" Only by a complete abuse of the English language could you claim that.

Evidently, this is one of those arguments atheists tend to put forth, to suggest that their subjective opinion is somehow a superior universal moral standard.
You don't want to go there again, do you?
Is there a universal moral standard, and who sets it? I say God. What say you?

Since we're swapping threads, you can see my issue with supposedly God-based morality here:

The Euthyphro Dilemma and Appeals to God as Source of Morality

You can answer the question in my OP here or there.

Now, when you say there is a "universal" moral standard, what does that mean?

 

[F1fan]

Slavery is not a bad thing in itself.

This is why Baptists of the Confederate States of America decided to separate from the USA. The result was a massive war costing 600,000 soldiers and citizens. Many slaves died during their imprisonment, and more died after the war due to not having skills or opportunty to live independent lives.

That's Christianity at work, and why the world is out of control. No moral consistency.

 

[Left Coast]

Not really.

No, really. Didn't you just say God's moral standard is "universal?"

A lot of things were common back then, which God allowed because of the "culture".
For example, while God could have fought every battle against enemy nations, singlehandedly, he allowed, and even commanded his people to fight.

Which is similarly bizarre.

They had the 'guts'. They were of a nation familiar with violence, so that they would chop off heads and not bat an eye.
God allowed that for its time, and purpose.

He also allowed a man to have more than one wife, even though he was against it, and commanded otherwise. He tolerated it for a time.

You see, God does not work like we do - panicky, and haphazardly.
He works according to a timetable, and scheduled time for accomplishing his purpose, and will.
So, until the Messiah, he simply put a tutor in place.
(Galatians 3:23-25)

23 However, before the faith arrived, we were being guarded under law, being delivered up together into custody, looking to the faith that was destined to be revealed. 24 Consequently the Law has become our tutor leading to Christ, that we might be declared righteous due to faith. 25 But now that the faith has arrived, we are no longer under a tutor.

That tutor would allow a remnant to continue until the Messiah arrived.
Once the Messiah arrives, the tutor would leave. Thus there would be adjustments, as these are superior - the real deal, actually.
Explaining this to you would require a new thread, and lots of pages, but if you want, I can do it.

There's no need as it doesn't help your case. 1) The New Testament doesn't condemn slavery, 2) there were plenty of counter-cultural commands of God in the Torah and elsewhere in the Bible. In fact that's one of the main purposes of the Torah, to set the Jews apart from surrounding Gentile nations. So the excuse that slavery was common in ANE "culture" doesn't hold water.

What else you got?

The point is, what is common back then among his people, was given consideration, because the light had not appeared as yet.
(John 1:9) The true light that gives light to every sort of man was about to come into the world.
(John 3:19) Now this is the basis for judgment: that the light has come into the world. . .

This is called being reasonable, and considerate.
Once the light has shone forth though, that's a different ball game.

But it isn't, as you yourself have even conceded. You think your God is perfectly fine with slavery, as long as it's the right kind.

As I said before, he did.
(Leviticus 25:42) For they are my slaves whom I brought out of the land of Egypt. They should not sell themselves the way a slave is sold.

Yes, this verse says that Hebrews are not to sell themselves like slaves. Gentiles were a different story, as you yourself quote later in this very post.

While God didn't tell them to stop that practice right that instance, he did give guidelines on how they practice slavery, during the time he allowed it.

So wait, now God doesn’t allow slavery? I thought slavery was just another word for employment and there's nothing inherently wrong with it?

So from the get go of him adopting the nation, God said this.
(Exodus 21:1-6)

1 “These are the judicial decisions that you are to convey to them: 2 “If you buy a Hebrew slave, he will serve as a slave for six years, but in the seventh year, he will be set free without paying anything.

In some cases, that slave wanted to stay, and not leave.
That refutes your argument, you see... along with all I said before.

That's about Hebrew slaves. And the Gentile ones?

I know you're not really going to claim that slaves en masse just want to be enslaved, are you? Really?

Notice, God did not say, "Stop it now."
Considering 1) this nation is a nation of stiff-necked people;

God told them to stop all kinds of things. So their demeanor is irrelevant.

2) the practice in itself is not bad, but has benefits;

That some masters are nice is not a "benefit." Any more than an abuser cooking his wife a nice meal after beating her is a "benefit."

Think about the words you are saying and what you are actually defending.

3) it is the nation through whom the Messiah would come, God applied reasonableness.

There is nothing "reasonable" about an allegedly morally perfect deity condoning slavery.

Benefits? You ask. How can it be good?
(Leviticus 25:39-43)

39 “‘If your brother who lives nearby becomes poor and he has to sell himself to you, you must not force him to do slave labor. 40 He should be treated like a hired worker, like a settler. He should serve with you until the Jubilee year. 41 Then he will leave you, he and his children with him, and return to his family. He should return to the property of his forefathers. 42 For they are my slaves whom I brought out of the land of Egypt. They should not sell themselves the way a slave is sold. 43 You must not treat him cruelly, and you must be in fear of your God.

We covered this passage already. That's about Jews. It's amazing you're quoting this as though it vindicates your position.

"And as for your male and female slaves whom you may have - from thr nations that are around you, from them you may buy male and female slaves. Moreover you may buy the children of the strangers who dwell among you, and their families who are with you, which they beget in your land; and they shall become your property. And you may take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them as a possession; they shall be your permanent slaves.

This is the institution you are defending.

Have you ever made a job contract, to work with X firm for X years?
Hopefully you see how this is as it is today. No difference.

As I've now amply shown, and common sense would tell you - that claim is absurd.

The word

slave is actually written on that image.
That's how they feel, but in reality, that's what it is.

That some employees are underpaid or treated poorly is not an argument that it's okay to treat them even less poorly and enslave them. It's an argument that they should be treated better.

Did God command his people to enslave those ones?
No.

God told them where they were not allowed to take slaves from, and where they were allowed do take them from.

Telling someone how they may properly do something is not a condemnation of it.

It's like a fisherman going about his business of fishing.
The government might say to the fisherman, "You can fish in these waters. That's where you can take your fish, but you should not fish in those waters."
The government did not command the fisherman to fish.
It is the fisherman's practice.

If a government tells someone how they may properly do something, that is an admission that it is fine when done properly. As you yourself have already argued.

So which is it? Is slavery just fine as long as it's done right, or is it not morally okay but God just allowed it temporarily because she was being "reasonable?" You can't have it both ways.

The fact that people try to sully those who have a clean record, because they feel condemned by that record, and so try to dig up dirt on that person, shows that yes, there is a satanic influence on this world - clearly against God.

People "dig up dirt on each other" without any demonstrable influence by magical beings. If you think "digging up dirt" is what criticizing slavery is though...that is a pretty desperate attempt to deflect blame.

No. I believe it's right for me to be killed for my lack of faith in God... by God.

I don't. Why do I want you treated better than your god does?

Are you listening to what I say?

I am. It's disturbing.

I don't have the right to kill anyone for their beliefs or lack of, nor do you.
God has that right. As the source of life - the creator - the one responsible for planet earth. God has the right to decides who gets to live on it.

I've also written a thread on this claim:

Is Creating Life a Moral Carte Blanche?

If morality is to mean anything coherent and reasonable, then no, just because God created us wouldn't give her moral carte blanche to kill us for just any reason. That's my view anyway.

 

[joelr]

Strange that Christians discount the myths of other people, but they believe theirs to be true.

Mythology is often defined as 'other peoples' religions', religion can be thought of as misinterpreted mythology.” — Joseph Campbell

 

[nPeace]

Hmm. @Left Coast I just scanned through your posts. Before I respond, I have two questions for you.

Can the words laborer, slave, and servant, be used interchangeably, and have they ever been?
Is being a slave always bad, and was there any time in history when it was not?

See you later.

 

[SkepticThinker]

What evidence is that?

God doesn't have any reason to hurry or procrastinate.

 

[SkepticThinker]

You are not talking to an atheist, Left.
People didn't call JWs "Bible Students" for nothing.

Let's start at the top.

The claim that slavery itself is abuse, is false.
A slave in ancient times understood that he or she was serving, or offering a service, in return for their life - a life plagued by poverty... which leads to death.
It's comparable to what we do today, when we slave for the dollar, to feed ourselves and family.
Some of us don't like it - being forced to get out of bed at a particular time, to get on the job at a particular time, and in many cases, to do what we don't even like doing.

You might say, it's a choice. What kind of a choice? What's the difference?
(Deuteronomy 15:12-18) 12 ...you should set him free. 13 And if you should set him free, do not send him away empty-handed. 16 “But if he says to you, ‘I will not go out from your company!’ because he loves you and your household, since he has been happy while with you, 17 you should then take an awl and put it through his ear into the door, and he will become your slave for life. You should do the same with your slave girl. 18 Do not consider it a hardship when you set him free and he leaves you, because his service to you for six years was worth twice as much as that of a hired worker, and Jehovah your God has blessed you in everything that was done.

Slavery is not a bad thing in itself. It involved... in this case, a service to one who would dictate what another's job - day's activities involved.
It was even used to apply to persons who considered one as of greater honor - Genesis 44:27; Genesis 44:30; Genesis 44:32 ...even a king. 2 Samuel 14:16
One considered themselves a slave simply because of being humble and submissive.
(1 Samuel 25:40-41) 40 So David’s servants came to Abigail at Carmel and said to her: “David has sent us to you to take you as his wife.” 41 She immediately rose up and bowed with her face to the ground and said: “Here is your slave as a servant to wash the feet of the servants of my lord.. . .

It is the way slaves are dealt with, that would make it bad.

To show that slavery of the sort described earlier, continues today, but only under a different term, perhaps because of how it came to be viewed, and the need to distinguish between cruel slavery, and proper slavery...
In the first century, Paul wrote...
(1 Timothy 6:1-2) 1 Let those who are under the yoke of slavery keep on considering their owners worthy of full honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may never be spoken of injuriously. 2 Moreover, let those having believing owners not be disrespectful to them because they are brothers. Rather, they should serve more readily, because those receiving the benefit of their good service are believers and beloved.. . .

This isn't describing anything different to, what we know as "working for the boss".
All one has to do, is trace the history. Slave - Owner; Servant - Owner/Master/Mistress; Laborer/Worker - Boss/Employer... There are other names, but all the same.

I made a thread on this, with all the scriptures, and information. Feel free to go through it.
However, if you have questions, or you have objections, feel free to post those.



There are quite a lot of people owned as property, who are quite happy with their master, and slaving for them.
Jesus and his apostles
(Matthew 20:25-28) 25 But Jesus called them to him and said: “You know that the rulers of the nations lord it over them and the great men wield authority over them. 26 This must not be the way among you; but whoever wants to become great among you must be your minister, 27 and whoever wants to be first among you must be your slave. 28 Just as the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister . . .

Slaving for another, or being a slave of another, in most cases, is simply ministering to, or serving another.
It can be enjoyable, willing servitude, or not.
Here, it's enjoyable. None of God's people complain about being his property. In fact, they made themselves such, because of gratitude for what he has done, is doing, and yet will do.

Are you aware that there are people who actually offer to serve others, out of gratitude, because they owe the person their life, for what that person did for them? Yes. They consider themselves owned.
Bad? No.

Copied from the other thread...
QUOTE
For example...
The apostle Paul made this expression... "...but through love slave for one another". Galatians 5:13
He explained and demonstrated what that meant.
"For though I am free from all people, I have made myself the slave to all, so that I may gain as many people as possible. . ." (1 Corinthians 9:19)
Yes, a person can be a willing slave, as was the case, past, present, and will be in the future, as mentioned in the OP.
Jesus too, set the example in willingly serving others. (Matthew 20:28; Philippians 2:7)

Have you ever offered to carry someone's stuff for them; move things for them...
That's commendable. A willingness to slave for others, is actually a good thing.
This is the slavery, that is promoted by God, and his servants.
UNQUOTE

Evidently, this is one of those arguments atheists tend to put forth, to suggest that their subjective opinion is somehow a superior universal moral standard.
You don't want to go there again, do you?
Is there a universal moral standard, and who sets it? I say God. What say you?

You can take it up with me from this post, regarding slavery, if you like.

Please don't try and rationalize and justify slavery in order to make your Bible make sense.
Owning people as property is immoral. "But people loved being slaves!" Gimme a break. Take a deep look at your belief system in the mirror, if it's telling you that slavery is moral and you find yourself defending it.

 

[SkepticThinker]

The God of the Bible is a Benevolent Benefactor.
God forces No one to worship Him, thus Not a dictator. We're all free to make up our own minds.

Let's say Adam set up a BIG business for everyone, but Adam deliberately bankrupted the business.
Everyone was put out of work but thankfully there was a someone very generous who bailed out the bankrupted business and put all the people back to work. The God of the Bible is that generous someone.
All the good that Adam lost for us the God of the Bible through Jesus will restore for us.

The God of the Bible invites all of us to pray to Him for Jesus to come ! - Rev. 22:20
For Jesus to come and bring ' healing ' to earth's nations - Revelation 22:2
Healing to the point that No one will say, " I am sick....." - Isaiah 33:24
Happy-and-healthy healing for Earth and its people as described in Isaiah 35th chapter.
Thus, Not only physical health but also mental health.

And what happens to you if you don't worship this God, pray tell?

 

[Left Coast]

Hmm. @Left Coast I just scanned through your posts. Before I respond, I have two questions for you.

I can answer, but I fear we're getting some message sprawl here. Our replies to each other will now be spread out across three posts. Let's do our best to condense to the heart of the matter.

Can the words laborer, slave, and servant, be used interchangeably, and have they ever been?

This is two questions rolled into one. These terms may be used interchangeably by some people. In some Bible translations the word for slave is translated euphemistically as servant. But I think there's a meaningful difference between owning another human being as property and her working for you as an employee who is paid, has legal rights, can own her own property, and so on. Do you disagree?

Is being a slave always bad, and was there any time in history when it was not?

IMO slavery has always been immoral at its core. There have been masters who treated their slaves nicer than others, so that immorality is a matter of degree. But at root, treating another human being as a thing, an object to be bought and sold, gives one person too much power over another. This is why modern democracies enshrine human rights in law. We recognize that life is better for everyone when we are treated as free equals.