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Featured Why is there no outcry from the Christian Right against divorce?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Jainarayan, Oct 28, 2019.

  1. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    1) You’re making a lot of inferences with regard to homosexuality in the Bible. ‘Nuff said on that subject.

    2) This reminds me, somehow, of the “Christian” minister who told my neighbor (a girl who was being physically and emotionally abused by her husband) that “Jesus wanted her to stay in that relationship and suffer for him.” As far as I’m concerned, Jesus would say that the husband committed divorce the moment he put his hands on her or raised his voice.
     
  2. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    This assumes the Bible is some kind of “absolute.” It isn’t.
     
  3. Mitty

    Mitty Active Member

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    Biblical morality is obviously just man-made and changes as society changes, given that it wasn't morally wrong for Abraham to shack up with his sister Sarah and commit adultery with Hagar. Nor was it morally wrong for Abraham to kill his son as a blood sacrifice or for Cain(an) to kill his brother Abel or for Noah's father to kill a young man for hitting him, since the ten commandments etc did not apply to them and are just man-made.
     
  4. Mitty

    Mitty Active Member

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    And what did "their Creator" and their slaves and wives say about the hypocritical rubbish that those rich white slave owners wrote about their male slaves (but not their wives) being created equal with certain unalienable rights of life liberty and the pursuit of happiness? And is that why the national anthem still condones slavery and why the incarceration rate is the highest in the world because of industries based on prison slavery? How Prison Labor is the New American Slavery and Most of Us Unknowingly Support it
     
  5. SomeRandom

    SomeRandom Still learning to be wise
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    I’ve read 1984. And Politics and Language. And Animal Farm. Need to read Keep the Aspidistra Flying though.
    Newspeak is an example of how language is a powerful communicative tool. If you strip away the power to communicate ideas, it becomes easier for someone to control your thoughts. Because you no longer have the wherewithal to challenge what you’re being told anymore.
    To expand a definition, even by Government decree, is quite literally the opposite of Newspeak.
    Ingsoc and the Ministry of Truth don’t just change definitions arbitrarily. That doesn’t really do anything. They internationally strip away any and all meaning of words, encourage people to reject any and all emotional attachment to ideas and boil them all down to its ultimate distillation. Then they go out of their way to not replace any of the meanings with anything substantive. Rendering language as nothing but a shallow husk unable to express anything about the world around it.

    If the institution of marriage is magically undermined by gay couples getting the same government benefits of a married couple, it’s not particularly strong. I thought it was supposed to mean more than a mere government certificate and some tax cuts?

    Sorry for the interjection. Y’all can continue your arguments. I just find it fascinating how deeply distrustful Americans are about their own government.
     
    #205 SomeRandom, May 12, 2020
    Last edited: May 12, 2020
  6. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member

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    Your second point is bizarre, and unrelated to the issue.

    One need not infer when direct and perfectly clear statements exist.
     
  7. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member

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    LOL, Christ said nothing about necrophilia, child molestation, carbon fiber, or chef Boyardee spaghetti either. I assume then that you are OK with necrophilia , because Christ said nothing about it and it harms no one, and if done properly does not include anal sex, right?

    You totally blow off the reason sodom and the sodomites in it were destroyed, ignoring virtually the entire town wanting to have sex with the angels, especially the men.

    Romans 1 26-27 discusses women, then says that LIKEWISE, LIKEWISE, which means THE SAME the men committed homosexual acts. Further, in listing a plethora of sins, including murder, and robbery, Paul says, that those who practice arsenkiotes, homosexuality are doomed.

    You are a homosexual apologist, that's fine. We ALL will find out in the end if revisionary erroneous Biblical exegesis is of import to God, won't we?
     
  8. Mitty

    Mitty Active Member

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    So what on Earth has that silly obfuscation got to do with the fact that Jesus loved one of his disciples and said nothing about homosexuality, or that Romans 1:26-27 says nothing about female homosexuality or women with women even if you believe that Paul described female genitalia as "vile" and "unseemly"?

    Nothing in that story about the men women and children wanting to have sex with two blokes in Lot's house. And the Oxford English Dictionary doesn't define the word "know" as a synonym for sex anyway, and given that the bible uses the word "know" in that context to describe a loving intimate relationship.

    But it's your choice if you want to believe that false interpretation of that fantasy story presumably based on a volcanic eruption such as Santorini about 1450 BC, and that Lot's sons-in-law wanted to have loving sex with those two blokes instead of with their future wives who Lot tried to pimp and then sexually assaulted.

    SO WHAT!!! And Paul said that disobedient children should be executed too (Romans 1:30), and as commanded in the bible. There is nothing in Romans 1:26-27, however, about female homosexuality or women with women "working that which is UNSEEMLY and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet" from penetrative sex with other women. Nor does the bible or Romans 1:26-27 say that anal sex is "the natural use of the woman" either, given that Romans 1:27 obviously refers to anal sex which Paul described as "vile" and "unseemly" and the writers of Leviticus 18 & 20 described as disgusting.

    None of that wishful thinking changes the fact that the bible says nothing about female homosexuality, nor that Lot's sons-in-law wanted to have sex with the two blokes instead of with their future wives or with Lot who was outside the house when he mocked his sons-in-law and tried to pimp their future wives. Have you ever actually read the bible, or do you just pay preacher men to tell you what to believe including their false personal interpretations?

    And the fantasy story in Gen 18 says nothing about homosexuality either, but describes how Abraham had a non-kosher meal with a god and discussed the number of righteous children in Gomorrah and Sodom and how the god then walked down to Gomorrah to count them for itself, since it was neither an omniscient or omnipresent type of god. But the story doesn't condemn Abraham for having an incestuous relationship with his sister Sarah or for committing adultery with Hagar given that the ten commandments etc are obviously just man-made and didn't apply to him. Or so the story goes.
     
    #208 Mitty, May 13, 2020
    Last edited: May 13, 2020
  9. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Show me one -- ONE -- biblical passage that explicitly says: "Homosexuality." It ain't there, so you're inferring... and you have to in order to support your belief.

    The reason was lack of hospitality.

    I don't think you think it is "fine."
     
    #209 sojourner, May 29, 2020
    Last edited: May 30, 2020
  10. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Abnormal before it was fashionable
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    @Jainarayan....
    "Why is there no outcry from the Christian Right against divorce?"

    As I understand it from a fundie friend, he cannot divorce,
    or marry a divorced woman.
    But this doesn't mean that other people cannot divorce.
     
  11. Spartan

    Spartan Well-Known Member

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    Why is there no outcry from the Christian Right against divorce?

    First of all, there's been plenty of sermons about helping couples stay together and honoring the marriage covenant. Plus, many churches offer professional help with counseling and psychological assistance. So it's an ongoing effort in today's churches in support of marriage vs. divorce. Even most people who are divorcing are disgusted and sorrowful that their marriages are breaking up.

    That being said, it's not like the illicit pro-homosexual agenda. Missing are the Divorce-Pride parades, and the demand that opponents venerate gay sex relationships. Missing also for the most part are the attempts to ram divorce as a positive cultural endeavor down the throats of elementary school children. Also, where are the 'in-your-face' "rainbow-like" divorce flags? Haven't seen any of those. And there's more. Where's the repentance from the homosexual crowd? Unless people repent of their sins, they will perish (Luke 13:3). I think you'll find a much greater degree of repentance and sorrow over divorce than you'll find with the gay pride movement. So that's why you don't see a greater Christian outcry against divorce. Plus, it's not the unforgivable sin.
     
    #211 Spartan, May 30, 2020
    Last edited: May 30, 2020
  12. Mitty

    Mitty Active Member

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    But it is the unforgivable sin if a divorcee remarries and doesn't remain celibate (Mark 10:11-12 Luke 16:18 Leviticus 20:10). And it's your choice if you don't believe what the bible actually says.

    In contrast, Jesus said nothing about homosexuality and why he loved one of his disciples instead of a wife. And female homosexuality isn't even mentioned in the bible since female homosexuals do not have anal sex as described in Leviticus 18 & 20 and Romans 1:26-27 for heterosexual women.
     
    #212 Mitty, May 30, 2020
    Last edited: May 30, 2020
  13. Samantha Rinne

    Samantha Rinne Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist

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    Jesus said nothing about homosexuality, but I think he'd be disappointed with all of these civil rights front groups (by that, I mean most of these are actually agitated by radicals of the same type that looted and burned stores Minnesota).

    There is a difference between two people being madly in love, damn all consequences, and privately getting married in the woods somewhere even if it involves no legal marital rights; there's a difference between that and two people basically trying to coerce a cake baker several states over to bake a cake he's not comfy with. To the first, we'd say "Congratulations! You two look cute together." To the other, we say, " Couldn't you just have had this baked in Massachusetts, where they definitely would bake a gay cake, and have it shipped to location? Why'd you have to hassle this guy?"

    Jesus would probably be in favor of civil unions having their rights expanded to be identical to marriage, and having romantic elopements be a separate affair. Jesus would probably not be in favor of people trying to ruin businesses by forcing them to acr according to coercion, that is "bake this cake or we sue you for discrimination." This is not the way of Jesus. It's the way Rome did things.

    I do think Jesus would have had some gay friends if he'd lived today. In fact, I'd like to think of Jesus today as genderfluid or possibly transgender. But I doubt she'd be okay with her friends being pushy or rude to people. Jesus saw plenty of people who weren't meek or gentle, but he said that the "meek will inherit the Earth."

    Also. From Wonderella.

    [​IMG]
     
    #213 Samantha Rinne, May 30, 2020
    Last edited: May 30, 2020
  14. Spartan

    Spartan Well-Known Member

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    None of those scriptures say it's an unforgivable sin.

    Baloney.

    Jesus is God. As God, Jesus is the one who gave Moses the Levitical law against gay sexual relations to begin with; and he’s the one who inspires all Scripture (2 Timothy 3:16), including prohibitions against gay sexual relations in Romans 1:26-27 and I Corinthians 6:9-10, etc.

    It’s also worth noting that Jesus didn’t mention wife beating or other sins such as pedophilia either, and there are not many folks who would argue he approved of those behaviors. So Jesus was under no obligation to reiterate the moral laws against homosexual sin that already existed, unless there were clarifications to be made.
     
  15. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    What about the licit pro-sexual identity agenda? What about the illicit anti-gay agenda foisted upon us by those who claim to be "spiritual?"

    All Christian people who identify as homosexual whom I know do confess their sin. But their sin doesn't include being who they are: homosexual women and men.

    Not baloney. There is no quote anywhere in the bible attributed to Jesus with regard to homosexuality. In fact, there is no bible quotation anywhere that mentions "homosexuality." None.
     
  16. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    False. Just ask any Jew (who are the recipients of Mosaic Law) if Jesus gave them to Moses. The bible doesn't even say that "Jesus gave them to Moses."

    But, when 2 Tim. was written, neither Romans nor 1 Cor. were considered to be "scripture" by the author of 2 Tim. So those "prohibitions" could not have been inspired by Jesus... according to 2 Tim.
     
  17. Samantha Rinne

    Samantha Rinne Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist

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    I'm not sure that's so. 1 Corinthians mentions being gay in the same breath as being a thief or a drunk. Though I'm not sure all of these have the same ranking.

    We have a lot of propaganda about how being gay isn't a choice. But this is not what I've experienced as a transgender (now, genderfluid) person.

    I know exactly what caused me to question my gender. I was six, and my big bro dressed me in a dress as part of a prank (he had a David Karesh film for history class). Around six years later, I realized that I was fascinated with women's clothing, makeup, and so on. I was told by the Old Testament that I was sinful, and I live in nearly 30 years with a sense of pervasive misery. Then I got out around all these LGBT group who told me that of course I was transgender, and of course I was born that way. But as I grew older, I went to the doctor to get a orchiectomy. He gave me such a laundry list of things between hormones, surgery, and testing that I'm like "Hmmmm, you know I know now that I'm really genderfluid." And just like that I chose again, this time not to fuss over hormones and stuff and just live as both male and female.

    Yes, these things are choices. The thing is, for 30 years, I made a choice to push that part of myself aside. For about 2 years, I accepted someone else's definition of my gender identity. This wasn't any better. Then I decided that I was genderfluid, and I found I was finally happy.

    These things are sins, yes. I believe my being transgender or genderfluid is sin, but I honestly believe the bigger sin is not confessing our sins. All of them, even those we aren't sure are sins. God will not tell us how to live. But God will forgive our sins as we confess them.
     
  18. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    1Cor. Never mentions the term “Gay” or”homosexual.” It only mentions lust and acts that the ancients were not medically or psychoanalytically equipped to equate with a concept of sexual preference. Therefore, their only option was to say that these acts were “sinful.” This is akin to having a barber slice your arm open in order to drain blood to cure you of “the vapors.” Fortunately, we’ve made advances in both the science of human sexuality and the art of spiritual formation.

    You may believe what you wish, of course. But you are who you are. And I believe that to try to cover up who you are with a piety that is so black and white is spiritually harmful. I’m not standing in judgment of you; you do as your conscience dictates is best for you — that is what I shall honor. But consider embracing a spiritual position that allows you the freedom, space and dignity to explore, wrestle, discern, and come to grips with a self-identity that honors you for who you are?
     
  19. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    I think you’re highly theologically confused about what Jesus would or would not espouse. You’re completely forgetting that Jesus modeled for us that there are times and situations that call for righteous indignation. He beat the dog slap out of people, overturned their stalls, ruined their stock-in-trade, scattered their bankrolls, and physically drove them out of the Temple with a whip. There’s a time for acquiescence and a time to stand up and be counted. In a nation that has a constitution that ensures equal treatment, it is the cake-bakers who foist a religious position not based in either good theology or good exegesis upon people who don’t share that position, who are in the wrong — not a couple getting married according to the law of the land. The doofus in Kentucky who refused to issue marriage permits based on her “religious convictions” is “what Rome would do.” Jesus would probably overturn the baker’s table. What’s ultimately rude is not treating people fairly and according to the law in the first place.
     
    #219 sojourner, May 30, 2020
    Last edited: May 30, 2020
  20. Mitty

    Mitty Active Member

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    I'm saddened that you still feel that it is sinful to be so born from your mothers' womb (Matt 19:12). Afterall we all start off as female, and males are only modified females as shown by those with Swyer Syndrome and other intersex conditions, including homosexuality and transgenderism. And I hope that you get the same acceptance and contentedness that Catherine McGregor now has.
    Cate McGregor - Wikipedia
     
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