Why is the Trinity so controversial?

[Starlight]

Ok, that is like quarks (the three persons), put together by gluons (the divine part). And your God would be like a proton. This is really the closest analogy I can think of.

Still, even if quarks cannot be separated (since the attraction force increases with distance), we still identify them as three different fundamental particles. And the proton is not considered a fundamental particle.

So, it looks like God is not fundamental, either, since it is reducible to sub-constituents. Did I get that right?

But if that is the case, what does it mean to say "Jesus is God", like most trinitarians proclaim? Makes no sense. It would be like saying: the "up" quark is "proton".

Or, in your analogy of those siamese kids: "kid 1 is siamese twins".

Ciao

- viole

you have a good point. I also think the offical trinity docterine contradict itself in this matter.

It makes more sence to they say "Jesus is a part of God"."The Holy spirit is another part of God" and that "Jesus is not the same part of God as the holy spirit".

I don't know why christians do not change it. If they had changed it I think all people (both christians and non-christians) will understand the offical trinity better.

 

[dybmh]

But Father is also a gate to get to Jesus.

Is there scripture to support this?

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Why make it so complicated? Instead of saying John "is" Jones, why don't acknowledge John as John with or without his family?

When you use "is" it can be either way God is Jesus or Jesus is God. It's saying Jesus=god. Instead of using "is" why don't use what scripture uses-relation/ship, with, medium, and, body, and so forth?

Why make it more mystical than what it is?

I agree. Jesus is Jesus. The Father is the Father. Both are God. In the human example the husband is the husbang and the wife is the wife. Both are the family. Only complicated if you try to say that all are just essences of each other or some other nonsesne. That makes it complicated. Several separate people in ONE family. Several separate "persons" in ONE God.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

In the offical trinity doctrine the three persons in God has same essence. The essence is the divine substance that binds them together as one God. Because of this the three persons in God can never split apart from each other. They are always togheter as one and they work always as one. And remember the three persons in God is also one in purpose and will.

For example two humans who is always togheter as one because both two humans has one hand that is fused together in the other's hand, and they both has one leg that is fused togheter in the other persons leg. They also share the same blood literaly. The same blood passes through both of their bodies. And if doctor do surgery because he want to split the two humans apart they both die.

The trinity is similar to that example above. And yes i know this is a bad example because two humans is not God. God is pure spirit. God do not die. And God is spiritual not physical.

So the difference between the trinity and your example like the gods Zeus and Apollo is that Zeus and Apollo do not have a divine substance that bind them togheter as one. So Apollo and Zeus can be completely separated from each other.
In the trinity, the father, son and holy spirit can never split apart from each other. They are always togheter as one and they work always as one. And remember the three persons in God is also one in purpose and will.

But yes trinity is soft monotheism or soft polytheism. In reality the trinity is none of them.

If the three can never be split apart, were all three hanging on the cross? Why did Jesus call out to his father if they were all three there on the cross. There are three separate and distinct "Person" in one God. Just like the members of a family make one family but of course they can be split apart. Why must it be soft monotheism? The Bible says there is one God. That is HARD monotheism not soft. But there can be more than one part in that one God.

 

[blü 2]

There is merit to the above, but I do believe the Trinity evolved, and tipped when the following “in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (Matthew 28:19, ESV), and other texts like in Acts. There are only texts of Matthew and others dating from the 3rd and 4th century.

I think we're substantially on the same page.

 

[Starlight]

If the three can never be split apart, were all three hanging on the cross? Why did Jesus call out to his father if they were all three there on the cross. There are three separate and distinct "Person" in one God. Just like the members of a family make one family but of course they can be split apart. Why must it be soft monotheism? The Bible says there is one God. That is HARD monotheism not soft. But there can be more than one part in that one God.

This sounds like Tritheism - Wikipedia

 

[Starlight]

If the three can never be split apart, were all three hanging on the cross? Why did Jesus call out to his father if they were all three there on the cross. There are three separate and distinct "Person" in one God. Just like the members of a family make one family but of course they can be split apart. Why must it be soft monotheism? The Bible says there is one God. That is HARD monotheism not soft. But there can be more than one part in that one God.

I believe God pure spirit. God is conciousness. God is power. God is a creative force. I do not believe God literaly look like a human being. God has no body like a human. God is more like the wind. Like a ocean.

I do not believe in the trinity. I believe in strict monotheism, like judaism.

But when I tried to explain the trinity I thought of God like what I wrote above. So i did not think their body binds them togheter. It it a kind of spritual substance that tie them togheter.
And spiritual matters is very different from the physical. So its no problem for Jesus in the trinity to be at the cross, and at the same time the father and holy sporit is in heaven.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I agree. Jesus is Jesus. The Father is the Father. Both are God. In the human example the husband is the husbang and the wife is the wife. Both are the family. Only complicated if you try to say that all are just essences of each other or some other nonsesne. That makes it complicated. Several separate people in ONE family. Several separate "persons" in ONE God.

Yes. That's how the creed separates them: father, son, and holy spirit. Son, (edit-rather) is subordinate to the father. Even in the iconology, they have it separate. Father as the dove, communion as christ, and the holy spirit assemble christ's body/church as a family.

Tying them up by "essence" makes it more mystic. Also, the bible says jesus is a representative to his father. So, the daughter of the family can speak for the rest of her family if her parent(s) gave her permission (or have an inherent permission due to the relationship) to do so.

 

[Starlight]

Yes. That's how the creed separates them: father, son, and holy spirit. Son, (edit-rather) is subordinate to the father. Even in the iconology, they have it separate. Father as the dove, communion as christ, and the holy spirit assemble christ's body/church as a family.

Tying them up by "essence" makes it more mystic. Also, the bible says jesus is a representative to his father. So, the daughter of the family can speak for the rest of her family if her parent(s) gave her permission (or have an inherent permission due to the relationship) to do so.

Hm.. This is not the offical trinity. What you wrote sounds like tritheism

Tritheism= which the unity of the Trinity and thus monotheism are denied. It represents more a "possible deviation" than any actual school of thought positing three separate deities.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Hm.. This is not the offical trinity. This is tritheism.

No. I looked it up. Not even close:

(In Christian theology) the doctrine of or belief in the three persons of the Trinity as three distinct gods.

Not three gods, just one. One family. Three members. (tri-)

 

[Starlight]

No. I looked it up. Not even close:

(In Christian theology) the doctrine of or belief in the three persons of the Trinity as three distinct gods.

Not three gods, just one. One family. Three members. (tri-)

so you believe in three gods who live togheter as a family? That sounds like tritheism.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

so you believe in three gods who live togheter as a family? That sounds like tritheism.

I never said there were three gods. I actually said there wasn't and stated the objection to what tritheism means by definition.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

This sounds like Tritheism - Wikipedia

I do not trust Wikipedia. Why would it sounds like three gods when the Bible says there is one God but more than one person?

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

so you believe in three gods who live togheter as a family? That sounds like tritheism.

NOT three gods. If you have a human family of husband, wife and child, you would NOT say there are three husbands or three wives or three children You would say there are three different people in ONE family. There are NOT three gods. There is one father and one son and one spirit that make up ONE God.

 

[Starlight]

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[PearlSeeker]

Is there scripture to support this?

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him." (Jn 6:44)

 

[Starlight]

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[shunyadragon]

Many non-christians do not agree that the trinity is soft monotheism but i think they can at the same time accept that christians believe it without make fun of it. It is possible to accept others belief without agreeing.

I do not believe this accurate.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

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I must say that this is one of your most interesting posts.

 

[Starlight]

I must say that this is one of your most interesting posts.

Hehe you are funny