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Why is the Trinity so controversial?

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
The Trinity isnt polytheism because the nature, substance, and essence of the three persons is the same.

Actually no, they are described as three distinct different 'persons.' In other religions that are polytheistic like some sects of Hinduism, all the Gods are aspect of the One called Brahman the same essence. There is not difference, and three Gods is three Gods regardless
 

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
The Trinity isnt polytheism because the nature, substance, and essence of the three persons is the same.
A human father and son absolutely do not have the same nature, substance and essence. the
yt are separate persons that make up one family. Why can't God be the same. This made up idea of three persons sharing the same substance is man's way of trying to explain something that does not make sense.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
A human father and son absolutely do not have the same nature, substance and essence. the
yt are separate persons that make up one family. Why can't God be the same. This made up idea of three persons sharing the same substance is man's way of trying to explain something that does not make sense.

The Trinity is a way to explain the vastness of God.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Let us make man in Our image is a reference to the Triune nature of God.

No, first you are referring to a Western translation and interpretation, no reference to a trinitarian nature of God. In the Pentateuch there was a pantheon of angels or deities in heaven is the easiest conclusion with references to the 'council' of deities, gods or angels in other references. Also the use of the plural from the Hebrew perspective is a common use to indicate the power of in this case God.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Not polytheism because it is still only one God just like one family. And each member of the Doe family is fully Doe. Each part of the God family is fully God. I find it an interesting idea that shows how there is only one God made up of several parts. I see nothing in scripture that prevents this. Can you quote scripture that contradicts it?
No, in one family, each person is COMPLETELY separate from each other. They are only related. In the Trinity, they are supposed to be more than related. They are supposed to be the same essense.
 

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
No, in one family, each person is COMPLETELY separate from each other. They are only related. In the Trinity, they are supposed to be more than related. They are supposed to be the same essense.
I think "essence" is something someone invented to try to explain what is not in the Bible. Can you show any scripture that says they are the same essence. Can you really see any reason why the Father and Son cannot be COMPLETELY separate? These are all just man made ideas. There is ONE God made up of a Father and a Son just like any human family.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
No, in one family, each person is COMPLETELY separate from each other. They are only related. In the Trinity, they are supposed to be more than related. They are supposed to be the same essense.

The Trinity is not polytheism because the nature of the Godhead is the same.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
I think "essence" is something someone invented to try to explain what is not in the Bible. Can you show any scripture that says they are the same essence. Can you really see any reason why the Father and Son cannot be COMPLETELY separate? These are all just man made ideas. There is ONE God made up of a Father and a Son just like any human family.

The essence of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit being the same is why they are one God. What is the Trinity? | CARM.org

What is the Trinity?
trinitygraphic.jpg
The word "trinity" is a term used to denote the Christian doctrine that God exists as a unity of three distinct persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Each of the persons is distinct from the other yet identical in essence. In other words, each is fully divine in nature, but each is not the totality of the other persons of the Trinity. Each has a will, loves, and says "I" and "You" when speaking. The Father is not the same person as the Son, who is not the same person as the Holy Spirit, and who is not the same person as the Father. Each is divine, yet there are not three gods but one God. There are three individual subsistences or persons. The word "subsistence" means something that has a real existence. The word "person" denotes individuality and self-awareness. The Trinity is three of these though the latter term has become the dominant one used to describe the individual aspects of God known as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Included in the doctrine of the Trinity is a strict monotheism which is the teaching that there exists in all the universe a single being known as God who is self-existent and unchangeable (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6, 8). Therefore, it is important to note that the doctrine of the Trinity is not polytheistic as some of its critics proclaim. Trinitarianism is monotheistic by definition and those who claim it is polytheistic demonstrate a lack of understanding of what it really is.

  • The Trinity
    • God is three persons.
    • Each person is divine.
    • There is only one God.
Many theologians admit that the term "person" is not a perfect word to describe the three individual aspects/foci found in God. When we normally use the word person, we understand it to mean physical individuals who exist as separate beings from other individuals. But in God, there are not three entities nor three beings. God is a trinity of persons consisting of one substance and one essence. God is numerically one. Yet, within the single divine essence are three individual subsistences that we call persons.

  • Each of the three persons is completely divine in nature though each is not the totality of the Godhead.
  • Each of the three persons is not the other two persons.
  • Each of the three persons is related to the other two but are distinct from them.
The word "trinity" is not found in the Bible, but this does not mean that the concept is not taught there. The word "bible" is not found in the Bible either, but we use it anyway. Likewise, the words "omniscience," which means "all-knowing," "omnipotence," which means "all-powerful," and "omnipresence," which means "present everywhere" are not found in the Bible either; but we use these words to describe the attributes of God. So, to say that the Trinity isn't true because the word isn't in the Bible is an invalid argument.

Is there subordination in the Trinity?
There is, apparently, a subordination within the Trinity regarding order but not substance or essence. We can see that the Father is first, the Son is second, and the Holy Spirit is third. The Father is not begotten, but the Son is (John 3:16). The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father (John 15:26). The Father sent the Son (1 John 4:10). The Son and the Father send the Holy Spirit (John 14:26; 15:26). The Father creates (Isaiah 44:24), the Son redeems (Gal. 3:13), and the Holy Spirit sanctifies (Rom. 15:16).

This subordination of order does not mean that each of the members of the Godhead are not equal or divine. For example, we see that the Father sent the Son, but this does not mean that the Son is not equal to the Father in essence and divine nature. The Son is equal to the Father in his divinity but inferior in his humanity. A wife is to be subject to her husband; but this does not negate her humanity, essence, or equality. By further analogy, a king and his servant both share human nature. Yet, the king sends the servant to do his will. Jesus said, "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me," (John 6:38). Of course, Jesus already is King; but the analogy shows that because someone is sent, it doesn't mean they are different from the one who sent him.

Critics of the Trinity will see this subordination as proof that the Trinity is false. They reason that if Jesus were truly God, then He would be completely equal to God the Father in all areas and would not, therefore, be subordinate to the Father in any way; but this objection is not logical. If we look at the analogy of the king and the servant, we certainly would not say that the servant was not human because he was sent. Being sent does not negate sameness in essence. Therefore, the fact that the Son is sent does not mean that He is not divine any more than when my wife sends me to get bread, I am not human.

Is the Trinity confusing?
Another important point about the Trinity is that it can be a difficult concept to grasp, but this does not necessitate an argument against its validity. On the contrary, the fact that it is difficult is an argument for its truth. The Bible is the self-revelation of an infinite God. Therefore, we are bound to encounter concepts which are difficult to understand--especially when dealing with an incomprehensible God who exists in all places at all times. So, when we view descriptions and attributes of God manifested in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, we discover that a completely comprehensible and understandable explanation of God's essence and nature is not possible. What we have done, however, is derived from the Scripture the truths that we can grasp and combine them into the doctrine we call The Trinity. The Trinity is, to a large extent, a mystery. After all, we are dealing with God Himself.

It is the way of the cults to reduce biblical truth to make God comprehensible and understandable by their minds. To this end, they subject God's word to their own reasoning and end in error. The following verses are often used to demonstrate that the doctrine of the Trinity is indeed biblical:

  • Matt. 28:19, "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit."
  • 1 Cor. 12:4-6, "Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. 6And there are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons."
  • 2 Cor. 13:14, "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all."
  • Eph. 4:4-7, "There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all. 7But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift."
  • 1 Pet. 1:2, "according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, that you may obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in fullest measure."
  • Jude 20-21, "But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith; praying in the Holy Spirit; 21keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life."
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
No, first you are referring to a Western translation and interpretation, no reference to a trinitarian nature of God. In the Pentateuch there was a pantheon of angels or deities in heaven is the easiest conclusion with references to the 'council' of deities, gods or angels in other references. Also the use of the plural from the Hebrew perspective is a common use to indicate the power of in this case God.

The Greek and the Hebrew doesnt disagree with what I said. The council in Job is a reference to holy angels. A bible teacher at my church used divine beings as synonymous for angels. It would be strange if a political leader used the expression us to indicate their authority. Us is a reference to the Triune nature of God.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
The Greek and the Hebrew doesnt disagree with what I said. The council in Job is a reference to holy angels. A bible teacher at my church used divine beings as synonymous for angels. It would be strange if a political leader used the expression us to indicate their authority. Us is a reference to the Triune nature of God.

Actually the translation into Greek is one step in interpretive translation. As far as Job and elsewhere is Council of Gods.

In terms of the Hebrew Tanakh it is not acceptable. Nonetheless no mention of the Trinity, and the rest of the Tanakh support the strict Monotheism of Judaism.
 
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Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Actually the translation into Greek is one step in interpretive translation. As far as Job and elsewhere is Council of Gods.

In terms of the Hebrew Tanakh it is not acceptable. Nonetheless no mention of the Trinity, and the rest of the Tanakh support the strict Monotheism of Judaism.

The Greek language supports the doctrine of the Trinity. The book of Job mentions satan and satan is not the opposite of God. The Trinity is not polytheism because in polytheism the deities have a different nature. The Trinity doesn't have to be directly mentioned in the Bible for it to be true. Granted Isaiah didn't mention the name Jesus. But he did speak of our fallen nature and the need for and coming of a human sacrifice rather than a dove, goat, sheep, etc., to save us from our sins. He said he would be the Mighty God and Everlasting Father, Wonderful, Counsellor. He said he would be born like a root out of dry ground(virgin birth?) and that he would die for us. Clearly Jesus confirms Isaiah and vice versa.

How is the doctrine of the Trinity not tritheism? | GotQuestions.org

How is the doctrine of the Trinity not tritheism?

Question: "How is the doctrine of the Trinity not tritheism?"

Answer:
The doctrine of the Trinity is at the very center of the Christian faith. That God is triune in nature is affirmed not only in Scripture but also in the early ecumenical creeds of the church—specifically, Nicaea (A.D. 325) and Constantinople (A.D. 381). The doctrine is essentially that God is one in being while existing as three co-equal, co-eternal Persons, namely, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

One often-heard objection to the Trinity is that the doctrine logically entails tritheism (a belief in three gods). But is this criticism valid? Is Trinitarian theology at odds with the clearly taught monotheism of the Hebrew Scriptures? Or did the early Christians get it right when they upheld the monotheism of the Old Testament while at the same time affirming the full deity of three distinct Persons? To answer this question, we need to look over the biblical data. The Bible clearly affirms that there is but one God (Isaiah 43:10; 1 Corinthians 8:4). In addition, the Bible teaches the deity of the Father (John 6:27; Romans 1:7; 1 Peter 1:2), the Son (John 1:1-3; Hebrews 1:2; Titus 2:13; Colossians 1:16-17), and the Holy Spirit (Acts 5:3-4; 1 Corinthians 3:16). Moreover, the biblical writers go out of their way to affirm that all three Persons are distinct from each other (Matthew 28:19; Romans 15:30; 2 Corinthians 13:14). So, while it is true that the word trinity is not found in the Bible, the concept most certainly is.

Does the fact that there exist three divine Persons entail that there exist three separate gods? The answer is no. The same Scriptures that affirm that all three Persons of the Trinity are divine also unequivocally affirm monotheism (Deuteronomy 6:4; 1 Timothy 2:5). So, what are we to do with this tension between the idea of three divine Persons and monotheism? A helpful clarification involves what we mean by the word person.

Person can be defined as “a center of self-consciousness.” A person has a mind, emotions, and a will, can communicate with others, and is capable of performing actions. When we speak of the concept of personhood as it relates to the Trinity, we are describing self-distinctions in God. All three Persons of the one triune God possess the complete attributes of deity. All three Persons are truly divine, yet eternally distinct from one another. The divine Persons can and do communicate with each other (John 17:1-26; Hebrews 1:8-9). Essentially, God has three centers of self-consciousness. Yet this one Being (the triune God of Scripture) possesses one indivisible essence. There is only one Being that is God, and this one Being is tri-personal, with each of the three Persons having full possession of the divine nature.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
All members of the same family can be the same essence.
You obviously don't understand the meaning of the word essence. In fact, you should actually look up the word homoousios in Greek, since that is the word in the actual language that the Nicene creed is written. It has no direct English translation, but the closest are essence or substance. A family is only a group of relatives.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I think "essence" is something someone invented to try to explain what is not in the Bible. Can you show any scripture that says they are the same essence. Can you really see any reason why the Father and Son cannot be COMPLETELY separate? These are all just man made ideas. There is ONE God made up of a Father and a Son just like any human family.
Whether it is in the Bible or not is for you to argue with other Christians. For me as a Jew, I think the whole Trinitarian thing is utter nonsense. I'm simply stating that the family metaphor does not adequately represent Trinitarian doctrine. If you completely separate the father, son, and holy spirit, you end up with polytheism, which runs counter to the teaching of the Torah: "Hear O Israel, the LORD is God, the LORD is one."

At any rate, since you are defending Trinitarianism, I suggest you research the Nicene creed which establishes it, specifically the word homoousios, which is usually translated as essense or substance.
 
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