lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
Don't know what you mean by distractions. Jesus created all things. Jesus and Mary were Jews and worshipped God per the Jewish religion.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Why is the Trinity so controversial?
- Thread starter Eddi
- Start date
nPeace
Veteran Member
1. So Jesus Christ is not a separate person then?
So this is misleading?
2. Depends on which translation you are reading.
Colossians 1:16 For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.
Strong's Greek: 1722. ἐν (en) -- in, on, at, by, with
Strong's Concordance
en: in, on, at, by, with
Original Word: ἐν
Part of Speech: Preposition
Transliteration: en
Phonetic Spelling: (en)
Definition: in, on, at, by, with
Usage: in, on, among.
HELPS Word-studies
1722 en (a preposition) – properly, in (inside, within); (figuratively) "in the realm (sphere) of," as in the condition (state) in which something operates from the inside (within).
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
a prim. preposition denoting position and by impl. instrumentality
Definition
in, on, at, by, with
NASB Translation
about (3), afterwards* (2), along (1), amid (1), among (124), among* (4), because (3), before (1), before* (3), besides (1), between* (1), case (2), child* (4), circumstance (1), circumstances (1), conscious* (1), death* (1), during (7), earnestly* (1), free* (1), had (1), here* (2), how* (1), means (1), outwardly* (1), over (1), there* (2), through (18), throughout (4), together (1), under (5), under...circumstances (1), undisturbed* (1), until* (1), way (4), when (19), when* (3), where* (2), while (19), while* (3), within (14), within* (1).
3. Consider too that one verse never stands alone.
Colossians 1:15-17
15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.
4. Did you realize you just said, "God has given us HIS spirit"?
Do you realize what you just did with your family picture?
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
Jesus is absolutely a separate "person" from the Father. And they are both separate parts of God.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Please quote from Jesus in an unambiguous ,unequivocal and straightforward manner that Jesus claimed to be the Creator of Universe. Right, please?
So, it is sure a distraction done by the vested interests or the sinful scribes, I understand. Right, please?
If Jesus and Mary as one admits, were Jews and worshiped G-d per the Jewish religions, then that proves my point, I understand. Right, please?
Regards
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
Not sure what your point is. Can you say it again?
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Why is the Trinity so controversial?
Because it is not truthful, I understand. Right, please?
Regards
Because it is not truthful, I understand. Right, please?
Regards
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe in logic which is not subjective and gives us accuracy.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe one way to get people's attention is to provide them with a mystery. That is why mystery writers are so popular.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe that is false. The Trinity is a reality. It is even in the Qu'ran.
I believe Jesus enunciated it. What Mary thought of it is not reported.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
It seems sensible to you because you are used to it.
It is controversial for several reasons.
1. It makes a man into a deity. This just doesn't happen in the Tanakh (OT). In fact, regarding the nature of God, the Tanakh states three times that God is not a man/mortal.
2. It creates a divided divine. Yes, yes, I'm aware that in trinitarianism you have a unified essence, and that it is therefore a kind of monotheism. But come on, it is a muddied monotheism, bordering on polytheism. You have Jesus praying, even though he ultimately bends to the father's will, that the cup pass from him, and the father saying no -- a division of purpose.
3. You have an innate logical conflict -- something cannot be one thing and three things at the same time. This is why Christians continually fall into the trap of modalism, or saying that God is part father, part son, part spirit, or various other heresies.
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
But can you consider this. There is a family of John Doe and Jane Doe and Joe Doe. ONE family. But the family is part John and part Jane and part Joe. Why can't one God be in several parts?
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
The example you gave, if used for the divine, would be an example of polytheism, not trinitarianism. After all, many of the deities in pagan pantheons were related to each other.
Also, the idea of each person of the trinity being PART of God is considered a heresy. Trinitarianism actually teaches that each person in the Godhead is fully God.
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
Not polytheism because it is still only one God just like one family. And each member of the Doe family is fully Doe. Each part of the God family is fully God. I find it an interesting idea that shows how there is only one God made up of several parts. I see nothing in scripture that prevents this. Can you quote scripture that contradicts it?
nPeace
Veteran Member
Can you quote scripture that supports it?
Nowhere in scripture does it say the holy spirit is God, god, or a god.
The Holy spirit is the spirit of God - the father.
(Matthew 3:16) . . .he saw God’s spirit descending like a dove and coming upon him. . .
(Matthew 10:20) . . .it is the spirit of your Father that speaks by you. . .
(Matthew 12:18) . . .I will put my spirit upon him. . .
(Matthew 12:28) . . .if it is by means of God’s spirit that I expel the demons. . .
(Luke 11:20) . . .if it is by means of God’s finger that I expel the demons. . .
(Luke 4:17, 18) 17 So the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him, and he opened the scroll and found the place where it was written: 18 “Jehovah’s spirit is upon me, because he anointed me to declare good news to the poor. . . .
(John 14:16, 17) 16 And I will ask the Father and he will give you another helper to be with you forever, 17 the spirit of the truth, which the world cannot receive, because it neither sees it nor knows it. You know it, because it remains with you and is in you. . .
(John 14:26) . . .But the helper, the holy spirit, which the Father will send in my name, that one will teach you all things and bring back to your minds all the things I told you.
(Acts 2:33) . . .Therefore, because he was exalted to the right hand of God and received the promised holy spirit from the Father, he has poured out what you see and hear.
...and on and on.
The holy spirit is not a separate person from the father, as Jesus is, so it cannot be a family member, just as Jane's Doe's hand is not part of the Doe family.
I find it interesting that people will go to such great lengths to support unscriptural doctrines.
Can you not see how using the family analogy just does not work. How far does one have to go to get it to work. They will have to say, "Well my hand is part of the family, so... Or my foot is part of the family... What?
Goddess Kit
Active Member
The trinity was an early, elaborate conceptualization of Multiple Personality Disorder. Writers, have to commend them, right?
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
Yes, I agree. The Spirit is NOT a separate "person" in a made up trinity. Since the subject of this thread is the trinity I did not want to confuse things any more. I believe that "God" is like a family made up of TWO person, Father and Son. Two separate beings but making up one God. Since God is not physical but only spirit then God is the only spirit that is holy. "God" is the holy spirit.
nPeace
Veteran Member
First of all, I must apologize... I missed one of your posts. Somehow I did not get a notification.
Okay, so let me see if I understand you.
In the post I missed, you said...
Great! That's what the scriptures say. So I agree.
You also said...
Did you take note of the translation differences I pointed out to you?
Colossians 1:16 For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.
I think it is important to note that the King James Bible, in that same verse, is misleading, likely due to the Roman Catholic doctrine of the Trinity.
Notice ...
King James Bible
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Where, a different Greek word is used for through (διά - dia: through, on account of, because of), that translation says, "by".
That's misleading, isn't it?
The same Greek word is used in John 1:3 - All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.
It is important to note too, as I linked earlier, the word (ἐν en: in, on, at, by, with) some translators translated as "by", rather than "in", does not carry the thought of one doing something, but rather, one being used to do something.
For example, a person will say, "this work was created by my own hands.". Or "by means of this pen, I wrote this book".
We understand that a person or thing can be an instrument, but the one creating the work, is not the instrument.
There is no scriptural reason for making Jesus the creator. The Bible says God - the father... you prefer, is the creator. That's why he is the only true God.
Consider the context itself "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. . . All things were created through Him and for Him"
If all things were created through him, then he is not the creator. All things were created by God, through Christ, and for Christ.
It's the perfect picture of a family - A loving father who has a plan. Sits with his only beloved son, and with the assistance of his son creates a beautiful project... for his son.
So that the son could say...
I was beside him as a master worker. I was the one he was especially fond of day by day; I rejoiced before him all the time; I rejoiced over his habitable earth, And I was especially fond of the sons of men. (Proverbs 8:30, 31)
Thus, we understand what that text is saying, in line with scripture
Earlier you said "Jesus is absolutely a separate "person" from the Father."
So here you are confirming that the father is a person, and the son is a person - two separate persons. the holy spirit is not a person.
The scriptures agree. i agree.
You say though, "Since God is not physical but only spirit then God is the only spirit that is holy. "God" is the holy spirit."
This is the confusing bit. Maybe you can help me understand.
Is the son of God physical?
What scripture says that? I do not mean Jesus as a man. I mean the son of God in heaven with his father.
Which scripture says that God is holy spirit?
If God is the holy spirit, would that not make the holy spirit a person, since God is a person?
In the meantime, I will tell you why this idea you have is actually blasphemy in itself.
When you say God is a family, and therefore, you do not call the father God, but refer to God as the family - Father, and son, and whomever else you may include, you lower God - dishonoring him.
Here is just one way you do that.
(Genesis 1:1) In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
According to your idea, God is the father, and the son, and whomever else may be included. Do you include angels as well?
So I consider this idea as taking that glory away from the one alone to whom it belongs. Jesus never did this.
How would having your idea be resolved with Genesis 1:26?
Jesus honored the father. He never sought the honor and glory his father alone has. Rather, like the angels, he declares, “You are worthy, Jehovah our God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power, because you created all things, and because of your will they came into existence and were created.” (Revelation 4:11) . . .
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
The Father had the IDEA or PLAN for what was created but the Son was the actual worker who did the creating. Just like a human father might have an idea for some repair job in the house but lets his son do the actual work. Jesus created all things using plans or ideas supplied by the Father.
The Trinity isnt polytheism because the nature, substance, and essence of the three persons is the same.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Please elaborate.
Regards