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Featured Why is the Bible the Final Authority on What is or isn't "Christian"?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Sunstone, Sep 27, 2017.

  1. Super Universe

    Super Universe Defender of God

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    God does not tell tales. Humans tell tales.

    God does not command. Humans write down commands and tell other humans they come from God.

    No one knows what Jesus said? But we do. You don't have to accept it. What are you to the universe anyway? Are you someone important?
     
  2. siti

    siti Well-Known Member

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    We still don't know that - but anyway, that's irrelevant to the question of whether there is "a Biblical basis" for belief in the final authority of scripture. Of course there is and of course that's what the people who "assembled" the Bible meant it to be. Its irrelevant to the question whether that's what the original writers believed because they weren't writing Bibles, they were writing letters to fellow believers - whether or not they truly believed in their own divine inspiration is impossible to know - but it is pretty clear that the people who stitched the letters and gospels together into the first Biblical codexes that roughly resemble the Bible we know today (about the 4th century) meant it to be an authoritative encapsulation of God's revelation to humankind. Anything that contradicted or went beyond it was not from God - and the scriptures I cited earlier were included to establish that notion. According to the Bible, a Christian must adhere to Bible principles first and foremost. God's word is the last word and unquestionably the final authority. Of course I don't believe that (at all) - and neither does the Pope - but I am convinced that was what the bible was originally meant (by a group of ancient Bishops) to be. So if you want to be a "Christian" (which I don't) you gotta believe that the Bible provides the rules of membership.
     
  3. Vaderecta

    Vaderecta Active Member

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    Single cell organisms we evolved from do not tell tales. Humans tell tales.

    God does not command? Have you taken a poll? Do you even have a common understanding of what others agree to be god as your basis in this argument?

    No you don't know what jesus said. You are convinced you know what jesus said in probably a similar manner that I know what I did the first time I played super mario brothers. We are both likely wrong but clearly there is a first time I played super mario brothers which compares to the first time you rejected every other religion on this planet except the one you embrace now and I would argue that even though I have clear but probably wrong remembrance of the first game I played you are under a different delusion. You think you know the the god and his son and what he said despite the majority of the planet thinking the same but disagreeing with you.

    Oddly if we took a poll right now not enough people have played super mario to probably side with me compared with those that know their religion is right. This is proving to be a bad example.

    Still I have actually played super mario and there is no way you know what Jesus said or did other than based on what you have read. You might be very convincing but I do have video of me playing super mario while we have no video of you translating Jesus into english. (Did he speak english?)

    I'm not going to argue your faith. You probably believe Jesus was real and he was born of a virgin and blah blah blah. But we all have our beliefs. Was Bean better than Ender? Would humankind survive without one or the other?
     
  4. Vee

    Vee Active Member
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    Christians are defined by following Christ's example and the teachings of Jesus are found in the Bible so it makes perfect sense for a Christian to use it as a guide.
    If people want to follow other traditions, teachings, etc, that's entirely their choice but if their behavior is not in accord with Christ's teachings they can't call themselves Christians anymore.
     
  5. Jedster

    Jedster Well-Known Member

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    This also extends to many religions. Their book is their basis for their beliefs.
    This never made sense to me. It's like borrowing/adopting others' (alleged) experiences as one's own.

    Surely a person's life experience is more real than reading of others' experiences from years past.
     
  6. The Ragin Pagan

    The Ragin Pagan A.K.A. The Kilted Heathen

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    Well, I suppose that's what happens when your religion steals holy day observances and dilutes all meaning from them.
     
  7. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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    Catholicism did that to help the converting of Pagans to Christiainty. To make the conversion easier they allowed some holidays to carry over and/or merge with Christian holidays.
     
  8. The Ragin Pagan

    The Ragin Pagan A.K.A. The Kilted Heathen

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    I am well aware. It still makes for meaningless holidays that are a shadow of what they were.
     
  9. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur Well-Known Member

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    The problem you need to understand to get to grips with this answer to your question is - what is the foundation for our faith!

    While all churches unfortunately demand that their adherents believe in the church dogma of the church to which they belong, many do claim to believe that their faith is founded on the word of God, the Word of God as is found in Holy Scripture. This is what the Christian faith is supposed to based on.

    When Jesus walked among us, he condemned those who because of following strictly their customs - in this manner invalidated the Word of God, the inspired writings received from God's prophets.

    *[[Mat 15:3-6/ASV]]* %v 3% And he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? %v 4% For God said, Honor thy father and thy mother: and, He that speaketh evil of father or mother, let him die the death. %v 5% But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, That wherewith thou mightest have been profited by me is given to God; %v 6% he shall not honor his father. And ye have made void the word of God because of your tradition.

    *[[Mat 15:8-9/ASV]]* %v 8% This people honoreth me with their lips; But their heart is far from me. %v 9% But in vain do they worship me, Teaching as their doctrines the precepts of men.​
    As you can see from Jesus' teaching here, customs that invalidate the word of God invalidate salvation and our faith.


     
  10. Kemosloby

    Kemosloby Well-Known Member
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    Jesus is the final authority on what is Christian. The bible is a guide based on the teachings of those from the Apostolic era.
     
  11. Super Universe

    Super Universe Defender of God

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    Single cell organisms prove science is right? They prove there are single celled organisms.

    Have I taken a poll about human belief's in God? No, why would you think a poll would be proof of something? Did Moses take a poll? Did Jesus or Mohammad? Your opinion is not necessary for the universe to do it's work.

    Do I have a common understanding of what others agree to be God? My understanding is that everyone pretty much disagrees on what God is.

    I don't know what Jesus said? I no way, way, way more than you do.

    You're comparing Jesus to Super Mario Brothers? Now I know I'm dealing with a child. You don't even know proper sentence structure. Let me guess, you dropped out of high school and you've never been anywhere and don't have any real education whatsoever and you sit at home playing computer games all day long?

    I have no video of me or anyone translating Jesus into English? So, to you, a video is proof of something?

    You're not going to argue my faith? You don't know anything about my faith. You don't know anything about anyones faith. The only thing you know is old computer games and you think you know enough to criticize others?

    I probably believe Jesus was real and was born of a virgin? He is real and no, he was not born to a virgin.

    Was Bean better than Ender? You're trying to use a movie to justify your beliefs?

    You need to get an education.
     
  12. DavidFirth

    DavidFirth Well-Known Member

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    2 Timothy 3:16
    16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
     
  13. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
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    Is that clear? I'm not sure it is.

    I remember one member here years back describing the canonization process as being based on the question of what should be considered "approved" to be read to congregations in church. That's a very different standard than "encapsulation of God's revelation to humankind."
     
  14. Clear

    Clear Well-Known Member
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    Hi Sunstone;

    1) The Bible as "source" of opinion vs the bible as "justification" of opinion.
    In actual practice, it seems to me that most Christians do not use the bible as a specific source for their various specific beliefs, but rather they acquire initial and basic beliefs from family or social milieu and then use the bible to justify and support their opinions about their conflicting beliefs. (there are exceptions of course)

    That is, Christians often state a personal opinion acquired outside the bible (from a preacher or family member or friend) and then interpret the bible inside the context of that base opinion. They then use this context interpret the biblical text and use a quote to support whatever opinion they have adopted.

    Thus, Christians with opposing opinions do the same with biblical text to support opposing opinions. One or both of the antagonists are wrong, but both attempt to use a biblical text to support their personal opinion.

    2) Personal Characteristics influence religious opinion
    However all of us have limitations which cause errors in our tentative religious opinions and models. We are limited in personal understanding; in limited historical knowledge; in limited intelligence; etc. Adoption of a specific religious opinion and such limitations influence how one interprets whatever version of the biblical text they use to justify their belief. This is not to say this is right or wrong, merely it is what I’ve observed. Specific "quirks" and errors of translations of New Testament text are often unhelpful.


    3) Any and all texts or principles that are inspired of God are useful for religious progress
    I think 2 Timothy 3:16 is correct : (πασα γραφη Θεοπνευστοσ) “ALL god-inspired texts are good for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness.” and not merely one text. Any principle which is inspired of God is useful for religious understanding and religious progress.

    Obviously the earliest Judeo-Christians did not have a New Testament and the writer/editors of the earliest versions of the new testament used other writings in creating their text. There were many, many early Judeo-Christian textual witnesses of Jesus Christ in use in early Judeo-Christianity which were used by these believers as source for understanding and religious insight. For example the writer of New Testament Jude, quotes from Enoch. Lawrence found 128 references to Enochian themes in the New Testament Text. New Testament text, even the books of the early New Testaments were different in the early centuries of the Christian movement. Early Christians did not base their personal beliefs on a modern interpretation of the modern, western biblical text

    Sunstone I hope your spiritual journey in this life is good.

    Clear
    τωφυειω
     
    #34 Clear, Sep 28, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2017
  15. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    I'm going with the advent of calvanism. I'm not stating that I agree with calvanism but as you've suggested, I believe that was the perpetrator of christian fundamentalism.
     
  16. Vaderecta

    Vaderecta Active Member

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    I love this post already. It ends with I need to get an education. (In our modern world if you consider people posting on RF as people that need to get an education this is just magic.)

    So you start off with if did moses, jesus or mohammad take a poll? Can you add them to this thread? You have an understanding and acceptance of these potentially now dead humans which I simply don't share. I don't pivot on potentially fictional characters to explain that universe.

    When you said what I agree with that you no way, way more than I do... Did you mean Know? I think you did and I don't want to pick on your language because I am not a native speaker and have gone down that path. But if you meant know... how do you know that you know way more than me. I grew up insanely religious. I've tried to suppress much of it but I still know songs to remember the order of the books of the bible and a completely unnecessary amount of bible verses by heart.

    Then you go on to conclude my comparison of Jesus to Super mario means I must be a child. It's possible. (I know a few kids that are super mario fanatics) However someone making that comparison probably encountered super mario during their adolescence since most people would consider that crappy graphics game a waste of time.

    You are right when you say I know nothing about your personal faith. I know a lot about faith though. I grew up with it and reveled in it. The idea that I don't know about anyone's faith is wrong because I can at a minimum discuss my experience of faith. I should be part of your anyone clause. We could put this in legal or logical terms but it ends with the conclusion that you stated your factual assessment of me which is impossible to prove to anyone except you. (Or a jury if you have really good lawyer)

    And Ender's game was a book written by a very devout Mormon. It later became a movie. (Mormon's believe in a god btw.)
     
  17. Super Universe

    Super Universe Defender of God

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    Can I add Moses, Jesus, or Mohammad to this thread? They died a long time ago, you should take a history course.

    You don't pivot on potentially fictional characters to explain the universe? Okay, prove Einstein existed.

    You grew up insanely religious? Oh boo hoo, welcome to the club. You can pick up a box of tissue at the corner store.

    You grew up with faith and revelled in it? And then something happened, you didn't get something you wanted and so you turned against religion. Great, that's all the world needs, another person who didn't get the life they wanted so they are angry at God.
     
  18. Politesse

    Politesse Amor Vincit Omnia

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    I do not think so. I see no reason to give us a message in many voices, from many times, from different religions even, if strict uniformity was the ultimate goal. And in any case, Christianity itself is not a Biblical concept let alone rubrics therefore. The most you get from the Bible is that outsiders started calling the followers of the Way Christians, which is hardly a stirring endorsement of the label.
     
  19. Vaderecta

    Vaderecta Active Member

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    History will tell you a lot about Einstein as opposed to the other religious folk. (Don't we actually have Einsteins brain somehow?) Why would growing up religious make me boo hoo? I think I said I reveled in it. That means I liked it and delighted in the experience. Actually coming to a more agnostic point of view is probably less joyful but more liberating? Not sure how to word that but I wasn't abused a religious constituent and even though I went to church three times a week and had both a weekly family bible study and a personal bible study I think I was probably thankful for the experiences.

    I have more than I ever wanted. I'm no more angry with god than I am with Lord Maalthiir of Hilsfar. (Or Ender or Bean)

    Growing up religious was a great experience for me. I don't think I would be an agnostic if I grew up otherwise.
     
  20. Super Universe

    Super Universe Defender of God

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    History will tell me a lot about Einstein? It would also tell me a lot about Moses but you claimed Moses never existed so what history am I to believe?

    Don't we actually have Einstein's brain? I don't have it but to be sure I need to check the house, never know when those things might sneak inside.

    Growing up religious was a great experience for you? But something happened to turn you against it. Great, so we have another atheist who didn't get the toy you wanted one Christmas so you turned against God.
     
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