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Why is the argument that there were no Palestinians raised?

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
More accurately, they spent the last few centuries as Ottoman subjects with no notion of being an independent political entity.

And that changes nothing.


Palestinian Nationalism started roughly after the 6 Days war. Prior to that there simply was no Palestinian Nationalism.

That's about it.

Probably.

That, too, changes nothing.
 

Flankerl

Well-Known Member
Israel will end up living in de facto permanent war against all of its neighbors

Do tell.
Egypt–Israel Peace Treaty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Israel–Jordan peace treaty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Probably.

That, too, changes nothing.

The Palestinians were prior to the late 60s and the obvious Arab defeat perfectly content as Jordanian and Egyptian Citizens. (oh and they lost both citizenships after Egypt and Jordan ceded the territory)

So yeah there were no Palestinians prior to the late 60s. Whether you like it or not.
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
More accurately, they spent the last few centuries as Ottoman subjects with no notion of being an independent political entity.

But who was ?

There were no individual states as we see them today, but there were people called as Syrians, Lebanese, Jordanians ..etc and they all live in their own community and land, Palestinians were living in Palestine when there were no specific land for the Jews, The Jews lived all around the world for hundreds of years which isn't the case for the Palestinians who lived only in Palestine.

Jews believed that they have rights in Palestine because their God said to them go to Palestine and make it your home and that was in the time of Moses.
 

Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
No. We do our best to learn what they understand land rights to be, and what motivated their ancestors to decree war against Israel in the late forties. Then we work from there, seeking realistic, viable options.
Something tells me it has a lot to do with the fact that they don't like Jews. But perhaps I'm too cynical.

Indeed. Try this one for irreversible: making a point of living in armed, perpetual challenge of the desires of neighbors who, as it turns out, breed considerably faster than they do themselves
Israel out-guns them and has a lot of big friends. If Israel really wanted to end the Palestinians it is within its capability. Thankfully, they are far too civilised for that. Israel has shown considerable restraint when you consider that their enemy would show none of the same if it had the same capabilities.

They've made peace with everyone but one group, I think you're blaming the wrong party. They have offered them statehood how many times now?

No. I want Israel (and everyone really) to pursue viable strategies as opposed to military or nationalistic ones.
That would be nice, but the fact is there is one party that perpetuates the current conflict. Unless you want Israel to commit suicide, it's not going to end and Israel is entitled to defend itself.
 
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FearGod

Freedom Of Mind

Do you think Iran and Hizboallah can one day have a peace treaty with Israel ?

I believe as Netanyahu believes that Iran will produce the Nuke if it doesn't yet, Pakistan did it already, Imagine what may happen if those neighbors one day became a super power and united under one ruler, what will happen to the Jews living in Israel.
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
Israel defend itself, what a joke, murdering innocent civilians, you call that defense, I call it genocide, something the Jews of all people should be reticent to do.
 

Flankerl

Well-Known Member
Iran a Superpower and uniting with countries like Iraq, Syria and Lebanon? What is this, the Twilight Zone?



I call it genocide

I love Genocides where the Population affected by the Genocide grows and grows and grows and grows....
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
Yeah, Some Jews love genocide, its a MAJOR problem in the world today.
 

Flankerl

Well-Known Member
Yeah, Some Jews love genocide, its a MAJOR problem in the world today.

I hear ya. The Hutus in Rwanda did it so wrong. They murdered so many Tutsis and yet their numbers wouldn't rise.

I mean what is wrong with that?
 

Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
If not, does that mean Syrians weren't owning their land which is known as Syria today?
Depends on what the powers with the big armies think. I'm sure the Ottomans considered it and the people within it to be theirs once they conquered it.

You seem to be under the impression that I don't recognise the legitimate desire of the Palestinians to have a fully sovereign state of their own. This is not the case. Palestine by all means should exist, but only until they reciprocate with Israel and stop the futile fighting they perpetuate. No matter how much you dislike the fact that there's an established Jewish state now, it's the reality and the bloodshed can stop when everyone just deals with it and moves on.

It's done, Israel won't go away (nor should it have to) so any Palestinian state will just have to get along with its neighbour regardless of the past.
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
Depends on what the powers with the big armies think. I'm sure the Ottomans considered it and the people within it to be theirs once they conquered it.

You seem to be under the impression that I don't recognise the legitimate desire of the Palestinians to have a fully sovereign state of their own. This is not the case. Palestine by all means should exist, but only until they reciprocate with Israel and stop the futile fighting they perpetuate. No matter how much you dislike the fact that there's an established Jewish state now, it's the reality and the bloodshed can stop when everyone just deals with it and moves on.

It's done, Israel won't go away (nor should it have to) so any Palestinian state will just have to get along with its neighbour regardless of the past.

Imagine that you're a Palestinian and you have a small land and a house, then your neighbor is an Israeli who asked you live in your own land with conditions that he apply it on you, those conditions are making you as just a slave to him.such as

You don't have the right to defend yourself, but i have the right to be armed.
Nothing have to pass to your land except if i fetched it, but you aren't allowed to fetch me.
I have to watch you and be in your borders but you aren't allowed to do so.
You aren't allowed to leave anywhere except by my permission but i can enter to your lands any time i wish.

Similar conditions that Israel ask the Palestinians to live in peace, be slaves or don't have your independence.

Do you want it to your family ? do you feel comfortable if you were the person concerned and how you feel about your children living in such condition and if you reject their ruling then simply they'll kill some of your children as what they call it as defense of Israel.
 
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Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
Imagine that you're a Palestinian and you have a small land and a house, then your neighbor is an Israeli who asked you live in your own land with conditions that he apply it on you, those conditions are making you as just a slave to him.such as
Yeah, the several offers of a Palestinian state, one of which was bigger than the Jewish state is something we'll ignore. Why have they knocked back so may offers if they sincerely want to come to a reasonable agreement?
 

Shad

Veteran Member
Palestinians are aliens who came to earth by UFOs.

This a map of the Roman empire. All you have done is show the name was adapted by people after the fact. Also your map has the territory based on the former Jewish Kingdom. Your source is more pro-Israeli than anything else.

The fact is this dispute about political and nation status ignores that people did own land in the area, that people lived there. It reduces a people to squatters unless they have a nation-state themselves. This is common view of colonialism which "Israelites" seem to fully adopt. Just ignore the people in favor of social and political constructs.
 
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LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Do tell.
Egypt–Israel Peace Treaty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Israel–Jordan peace treaty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




The Palestinians were prior to the late 60s and the obvious Arab defeat perfectly content as Jordanian and Egyptian Citizens. (oh and they lost both citizenships after Egypt and Jordan ceded the territory)

So yeah there were no Palestinians prior to the late 60s. Whether you like it or not.

You realize you are supporting my point?
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
That would be nice, but the fact is there is one party that perpetuates the current conflict. Unless you want Israel to commit suicide, it's not going to end and Israel is entitled to defend itself.

I want Israel to avoid suicide-by-neighbor.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
When someone claims that there was no sovereign state of Palestine, or a people called "Palestinians" he is making a particular (and, IMHO important) political argument. The notion of "occupation", under international law requires that one nation captures territory in war from an established and sovereign power. No sovereign Palestinian nation, no occupation.

The problem develops when one uses the word "Palestinian" which could refer to "anyone who lived in the area on the map once known as Palestine" and tries to expand it to refer either to "anyone whose ancestors lived in the area known as Palestine" (which brings up the UNWRA problem -- labeling, in this case only, descendants as refugees) or "members of the expected future sovereign entity of "Palestine" " (which then casts this identity backwards, muddying the issue).

Were there indigenous people? Well, there were people living there -- a claim to being indigenous is debatable. Those people were a mix of religions and ethnicities. We have census numbers and first hand accounts. We have bills of sale and documentation of how land was transferred and how populations migrated in and out. We have histories of the various rulers and administrators of the area, dating back a long time. We just don't have record of a unique nation (even not ruling this region, simply existing) called "Palestinians" in a way which would exclude "non-Palestinians."

This affects a political landscape if not a practical one.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
When someone claims that there was no sovereign state of Palestine, or a people called "Palestinians" he is making a particular (and, IMHO important) political argument. The notion of "occupation", under international law requires that one nation captures territory in war from an established and sovereign power. No sovereign Palestinian nation, no occupation.

The problem develops when one uses the word "Palestinian" which could refer to "anyone who lived in the area on the map once known as Palestine" and tries to expand it to refer either to "anyone whose ancestors lived in the area known as Palestine" (which brings up the UNWRA problem -- labeling, in this case only, descendants as refugees) or "members of the expected future sovereign entity of "Palestine" " (which then casts this identity backwards, muddying the issue).

Were there indigenous people? Well, there were people living there -- a claim to being indigenous is debatable. Those people were a mix of religions and ethnicities. We have census numbers and first hand accounts. We have bills of sale and documentation of how land was transferred and how populations migrated in and out. We have histories of the various rulers and administrators of the area, dating back a long time. We just don't have record of a unique nation (even not ruling this region, simply existing) called "Palestinians" in a way which would exclude "non-Palestinians."

This affects a political landscape if not a practical one.

At the start of the war in 48 there was no Israeli nor Palestine, neither were states before the war, only after was one recognized. The West Bank was occupied by Jordan during the war and was recognized as part of Jordan. According to your argument the occupation is valid since by this point Israeli and Jordan were recognized states. Occupation occurred in 68, 20 years after the first war.

Yes it is political but ignore every other factor as acknowledgement of these facts do not support Israeli's claims to the area.
 
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