Secret Chief
nirvana is samsara
Some form of spirituality is considered to be one of eight factors that feed into overall wellness.
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Why is spiritual knowledge seen as less correct then knowledge from science?
- Thread starter Spirit of Light
- Start date
According to who, and how do they define "spiritual?"
If God kept the afterlife a secret, you wouldn't know about it.
Interesting. Why not? Religions disagree on many points, so they can't all be right.
Maybe that's the thing here: not "scientific" versus "spiritual," but "justified" versus "not justified."
When someone presents me with a claim and says that it's "scientific," I don't automatically believe it. Instead, I ask the person - or myself - if there's any reason I should accept the claim as true, or at least as likely to be true.
I do the same thing with "spiritual" claims. The difference I've seen, though, is that I'm generally unable to find reasons to accept "spiritual" claims as true.
It sounds as if you don't do this. I get the impression that if someone tells you that a claim is "spiritual," you just accept it as true without asking yourself if you're justified in doing so.
Am I right?
Secret Chief
nirvana is samsara
I heard about it through work, the idea seems to have been around a while. This link gives descriptors:
The 8 Dimensions of Wellness: Where Do You Fit In? - GoodTherapy.org Therapy Blog
From your article:
Hope, purpose and meaning are certainly important, but I fail to see how they necessarily have anything to do with "spirituality" as the term has been used in this thread.
Secret Chief
nirvana is samsara
Perhaps I have mis-posted.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
How do you know there is not some effect?
How could you know if God is having an effect on the reality you experience?
No you do not dent the effects of something you cannot SEE such as gravity because you have a scientific explanation. Likewise, I cannot see the weather but I do not deny the effects of this heat wave on my ability to function mentally because it is a known fact that extreme heat can affect mental functioning.
First you said you would like to see some effect on the reality you experience. Then you said you would like credible evidence that God is the cause, but how could anyone EVER know that God is the cause? Even religious people do not claim to know what God is “doing” at any time; at least the adherents to my religion would never claim to know that, as we believe God is unknowable.
So you would like to SEE things for which you CANNOT discern a cause, supernatural things, and then you might say they could be caused by a God?
It is not hearsay; it is the Word of God. I fully understand that you want proof that it is the Word of God but there is no such proof; there is only evidence that indicates it is the Word of God. Once someone becomes fully convinced that the Messenger of God is evidence for God then that becomes proof that God exists -- to them. But it will not be proof to other people who were not convinced, and since not everyone will be convinced by the Messenger not everyone will become a believer.
As for what comes from the spiritual mediums, I take that with a grain of salt and I only tend to believe it because it concurs with what Baha’u’llah wrote about the afterlife, what little He wrote.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
God did not keep it a secret that there is an afterlife; what God kept a secret is what that afterlife will be like, as I said in this post a couple of days ago.
I believe there is an afterlife but I don't know what the afterlife will be like, nobody does, as it says in this short video.
#303 Trailblazer, Saturday at 7:26 PM
A Vestigial Mote
Well-Known Member
I honestly don't, and I can admit that. But the point is there is absolutely NO REASON TO BELIEVE IT if I can't know one way or the other. The effects could very well be from something else. Until I investigate and actually figure it out, what sense is there to pretending I know? I could see if there was some compelling evidence that "God did it." But as I see it, there simply isn't any.
With the way people always want to describe God, I can't know for sure. But it is EXACTLY the same as not being sure if there isn't a magical rainbow unicorn affecting the reality I experience. It is EXACTLY the same.
The scientific explanation doesn't matter. Gravity is a thing that exists, and exists for everyone. It is demonstrated at all times in our universe. You basically can't get away from it. What you are proposing is that we accept something akin to God being the force behind gravity. We don't know that. We can't know that. At the moment, we don't even know WHY gravity is in effect between masses. We don't know the "WHY" - and that is what you are proposing with your "God" explanation - that you KNOW the WHY. But you don't - and I know that you don't, because you have no compelling evidence.
Of course you do not deny the effects, because they are PRESENT AND ACCOUNTED FOR. God is not. If you want to say that God is behind the weather, then again, PROVE it. And if you can't... then stop saying it - or lose all credibility with people like myself. Your choice, obviously.Likewise, I cannot see the weather but I do not deny the effects of this heat wave on my ability to function mentally because it is a known fact that extreme heat can affect mental functioning.
You just stated the ENTIRE PROBLEM right here! We are in complete agreement - HOW could you EVER know that God is or isn't the cause? For that matter, how could you ever know that flying, invisible, magical, universe-traversing squirrels are or aren't the cause? How can you know?! And the answer is... you don't know until you do. Right now we don't... it is just really, REALLY hard for some people to handle, or admit that.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I am on the same page. I do not assume God DID anything because I cannot know.
I agree. I can’t know what God’s effect on reality is, at all.
I am not saying that I know WHY. I am only saying that I believe God is responsible for all the natural laws such as gravity, because I believe that God set everything in motion and keeps it afloat.
God is not present and accounted for but I believe that God exists…. I do not have to prove it to myself because I believe it, so much so that I can say I know it, but not KNOW in the sense of being able to prove it because NOBODY can prove anything about God, that is an given. So any sense of knowing has to be based upon belief and that belief is based upon what evidence we have, coupled with faith on that evidence..
I do not know that God is the cause of anything because God is completely unknowable, except for some of His Attributes and His Will for humans, that which is revealed through God’s Messenger. But God is ABOVE all His Attributes, meaning we cannot describe God because God transcends all human comprehension. How then could we ever KNOW what God is DOING at any time? So when Christians sometimes say they KNOW that God got them that job or that house or that spouse, I just chuckle. All they can do is believe and have faith that God was involved; they cannot KNOW.
wandering peacefully
Which way to the woods?
"As the Master of the Falun Gong cultivation system, Li claimed to "purify the students' bodies" and "unblock their main and collateral channels" and in doing so "remove the root of their disease", if they were ill. He also reputedly planted a Falun or "law wheel" in the abdomen of each student, and other "energy mechanisms" in other parts of their bodies. Li also described how his "Law bodies" will protect each practitioner and how he "clearI already know spiritual practice and science are two very different way of seeing life.
What buddha would or would not tell me is not important, I do not follow his teaching, I cultivate the teaching of Li Hongzhi.
If you think what I speak of is religion, that is your interpretation, not mine
I speak only from my understanding of the teaching, and yes I get it wrong from time to time. I am a human being, not an enlighten being
This is as best a glance at your teacher. I have been busy trying to do what is possible through contacting concerned citizens and our "representatives" in Congress, House and the Senate about our Orange Baffon "leader" about his latest decimation attempt of our wilderness systems. He has now approved a lease starting Dec 2021 of several million acres of the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge to oil and fracking. Something that no matter where you live in this world should bother you. People have fought succesfully for 50 years to keep this from happening. That disgusting man and his supporters in big oil have now attempted it again. I have hopes through action, to continue to keep it from happening but it requires time and effort. So I will look further into your master when I have time.
But from the little I have read about him, he doesn't come close to the wisdom of Buddha. I would like to know how you find him wiser than the buddha?
My thoughts about what spiritual is may be different than yours. This is a huge problem when discussing what spirituality consists of. There are no agreed upon concepts of it. In my own view, it need not contain any woo or anything outside of known nature. It is more of an atheist, humanists, naturally based view which appreciates and applies the wisdom Buddha. If I choose now and then to imagine magic or unknown answers to existence, I am free to do that. But I am also free to remain within the known physical systems without feeling pressured to know anything for certain.
I am certainly no expert either but it is a goal to self reflect, attain inner peace, live with compassion for all life without being judgemental towards myself or others. Love my family, help when I can and remain open minded to the unknown bUT certainly accept what is known. To me, this is being spiritual. But it could also fall into the humanist category. Definitions for spirituality are like definitions for gods. It's all in the eyes of the beholder. My description just doesn't include gods or unnecessary, man made stories.
And I have no idea why there is a line through my post........
wandering peacefully
Which way to the woods?
And I try my best to avoid the beliefs of others and use my own experiences and mind to separate fact from fiction. It just works best for me. To each their own.
wandering peacefully
Which way to the woods?
The VA uses this wheel. I can agree with some of their concepts and it can be a useful tool for many. They are trying their best to include a sort of religious, but not religious "spiritual" ideal for all veterans. It's not where I get my ideal of being spiritual which is from the teachings of buddha, but I did run into it in a group healing session at the VA.
That says and shows nothing about our knowledge of the afterlife.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
says nothing?
perhaps that would be best......as you stand before God and heaven
Yes, nothing.
That also says nothing about our knowledge of the afterlife. Perhaps it's best to just answer and show the knowledge we have about the afterlife instead of doing gymnastics to avoid giving an answer.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
humor me.....post an answer
You were the one who claimed that you know about the afterlife, now that you can't show any knowledge of it, so now you expect me to provide some. That's humorous in itself already
That’s a great model. Where is it from? I like it.